John Groce at Illinois

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#351      
karmapoliceman
Cubby Blue said:
So how should it look if you took the preseason #1 point guard (Abrams), the preseason # 2 guard (Nunn), the preseason #4 (Leron) and the preseason #5 (Thorne) off the floor?

For any team, in any conference I am guessing it would look exactly like what we are seeing. Two studs that were left (Kendall and Malcolm) and a bunch of freshmen being initiated into the B1G. Yeah, we throw in a veteran 5th year transfer but anymore, all schools are doing that, even Michigan and Maryland....
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It should look like we have a semblance of any set offense. I don't care if we're running out team managers to play (which I know we did last year). We have yet to shoot over 50% in conference play in 3.5 years. That's simply astonishing.

Different year. Different players. Still a lot of still standing around the arc and looking abjectly clueless if we aren't taking fade away mid range jumpers or hoisting 3 pointers.

Where are the back door cuts or movement in general that results in good looks on a consistent basis?

And I've never seen a team get beat by inside looks so frequently. No one else seems to have trouble scoring in the paint except us.

I know we'd be better if we had a full squad. Obviously.

But the issues we're seeing go beyond health. You only need to look to the end of last season for proof. Fans would be much more willing to be patient this year if we didn't end our season in such an embarrassing fashion in the BT/NIT.

Again, I want JG to succeed here. Lordy knows he'll magically pull it all together somewhere else if/when he leaves.

But what we're trotting out now in terms of game plan/ execution simply isn't getting it done, and hasn't been for awhile now for fans who have been patient going on a decade.
 
#352      
Allstar
There may not be a better well known option but here are better coaches. JG just isn't that good. He was a good/loyal assistant to Matta. He inherited a very good roster at OU and an OSU player transferred to get more PT. They didn't win the league but did get hot at end of year and win the conference tournament. That enabled him to move to the Illini. He wasn't very well liked as an assistant at Xavier or OSU. For him to succeed he must be able to recruit guards that are in top 4-5 in Big Ten. His offense is heavy on shots for guards without much inside emphasis.
 
#353      
dmac279
RichardH said:
I'm not opposed to hiring Jerrance, although if we did I would like to see him surround himself with an impressive staff. I think this is probably Groce's biggest shortcoming of all.
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Hmmm where has JH been a head coach at
 
#354      
dmac279
ssanti13 said:
One thing I couldn't help but notice in last nights game was Groce's frustration with his staff. There was a play in the 2nd half where DJW came around a screen, got lost on the play and ended up camping in the lane for a 3 second violation. I saw Groce pull aside Dustin Ford and really lay into him.

I'm not giving up on Groce just yet, but it's things like that which have me concerned.
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That's a god thing, get them out of heir comfort zone, Groce knows in deep doo doo, if not this year next for sure
 
#355      
DudeAbides
bleedsorangenblue said:
Fire Fire Fire ..... I can't begin to explain how short-sighted this mentality is. Groce is trying to build this program up from near ground zero and you want to fire him in the midst of his 4th season? .... A season riddled with injuries, playing freshmen and a walk-on in significant minutes? Top that off and you want to bring in a bunch of people with little to no coaching experience? This is a program that is on the rebound but it is not going to happen over night. Take away all the setbacks and injuries, and you still have a solid core to build on for the future.
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I've been lurking on this forum for a while and felt the need to actually start contributing, starting here. I think we can assume that we'll end up with 16 or fewer wins this year (7-11 in B1G and 1 BTT win seems like a longshot at this point). But even at 16 wins, that puts Groce's 4 years at 23, 20, 19 and 16 wins with 1 NCAA tournament bid and 1 tourney win.

Compare that to Weber's last 4 years, the years that you said put us near ground zero. 24, 21, 20 and 17 wins. 1 more win per year and also 1 more NCAA tournament bid and the same tourney wins.

With no 2017 commits yet and a rather weak 16 class (TJL is a good player but 1 good player does not make a good class), can you honestly say that if Groce were fired he left the program in a better state than when he arrived? We've won fewer games, missed more tournaments and our roster will still be full of holes.

The injuries this year are bad but even a fully healthy team probably wins 22-24 games. Is that what we are expecting out of our coach in his 4th year? 22-24 wins and a 6 seed in the tournament? Have our expectations fallen this low that we're happy being a middle of the road B1G team that barely makes the tournament every year and is never a real threat to the B1G championship or a Final Four?
 
#356      
Ulysses Everett McGill
LincolnIlliniFan said:
If we were to fire Groce, there's only one man they need to offer the job to, Jerrance Howard. Bring in him, add Dee as an assistant, bring in Roger Powell from Valpo and Deon Thomas from University of Chicago I believe. There's your staff. All pro Illini and would cherish the job. I would assume Jerrance has been offered multiple HC offers but is buying his time to see what happens at Illinois.

A previous poster referred to Self and Kansas and Collins and Duke. Jerrance is in that same boat for Illinois. It's his dream job and he's a hell of a recruiter. Look at who he's landed in recruiting between Illinois, SMU and Kansas. Granted, two of those schools had great head coaches at the time but he's made ties with top players and programs around the country. He's the man for the job of they decided to move on from Groce. I think Groce is a hell of a coach and hate even mentioning him getting fired but if that day has to come, Jerrance is the only person they need to call. Not only has he had success in recruiting, look at the Greg basketball minds he's coached under. Larry Brown and Bill Self? Can't gets much better coaching tree than that.
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X's and O's? We don't need no stinkin' X's and O's.
 
#358      
89illinigrad
PaytonHighstep said:
I would be on board with that scenario. IMO, he doesn't need to land a 5 star big man, it would be nice though. IMO, he can't have another bubble team if he returns all his players from this season. For the supporters of Groce, how can that be acceptable either?
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If the team is healthy and we're still on the bubble next year, Groce will be gone.
 
#359      
HeartofaChampion
89illinigrad said:
If the team is healthy and we're still on the bubble next year, Groce will be gone.
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IMO we need to 1) make the Dance next year while firmly avoiding the bubble (need to be an 8/9 seed or better) and 2) land a very promising 2017 class. Seems reasonable after missing 3 straight NCAA tournaments. Need to get the needle pointing up again and begin taking steps toward moving UI back into perennial NCAA tournament mode, where this program belongs and where it belonged up until 2012-14.

Side note: really hope TL will be a breakout PG in the next 2-3 years. KL tries hard, but otherwise our PG play the last 3 seasons has been woefully below high D1 standards. Watching opposing 1s play 8-10 feet off JT daring him to shoot a jumper is disheartening. PG is the most important position on the court, yet even TA's junior year we were below standard and his soph and frosh year were average at best. JG's failure to secure a quality PG before TL has been a crippling problem for the program.
 
#360      
89illinigrad
DudeAbides said:
I've been lurking on this forum for a while and felt the need to actually start contributing, starting here. I think we can assume that we'll end up with 16 or fewer wins this year (7-11 in B1G and 1 BTT win seems like a longshot at this point). But even at 16 wins, that puts Groce's 4 years at 23, 20, 19 and 16 wins with 1 NCAA tournament bid and 1 tourney win.

Compare that to Weber's last 4 years, the years that you said put us near ground zero. 24, 21, 20 and 17 wins. 1 more win per year and also 1 more NCAA tournament bid and the same tourney wins.

With no 2017 commits yet and a rather weak 16 class (TJL is a good player but 1 good player does not make a good class), can you honestly say that if Groce were fired he left the program in a better state than when he arrived? We've won fewer games, missed more tournaments and our roster will still be full of holes.

The injuries this year are bad but even a fully healthy team probably wins 22-24 games. Is that what we are expecting out of our coach in his 4th year? 22-24 wins and a 6 seed in the tournament? Have our expectations fallen this low that we're happy being a middle of the road B1G team that barely makes the tournament every year and is never a real threat to the B1G championship or a Final Four?
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Considering that we won only 19 last year, 22-24 wins and a 6 seed would be a step up with expectations that we would win more games next year.

By comparison, Beilein won 21 games in his 4th season at Michigan. Fran McCaffery won 20 games in his 4th season at Iowa. Why do all the naysayers expect Groce to be winning 30 games and competing for a national championship in his 4th year at the helm?
 
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#361      
Serious Late
dmac279 said:
Hmmm where has JH been a head coach at
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Man, I wouldn't have thought at the time how big Jerrance's arrest for marijuana possession was. The Bradley gig would have been perfect for him, and potentially for us. Would have been a great opportunity to see what he could do from a recruiting/coaching perspective as the man in charge.

As it is, I am not a fan of going after him as head coach for this program. Say we miss out on our first 2-3 options like the last search, then taking a risk on an up and comer with no HC experience makes more sense, but he is very much an unknown at this point.
 
#362      
89illinigrad
89illinigrad said:
Considering that we won only 19 last year, 22-24 wins and a 6 seed would be a step up with expectations that we would win more games next year.

By comparison, Beilein won 21 games in his 4th season at Michigan. Fran McCaffery won 20 games in his 4th season at Iowa. Why do all the naysayers expect Groce to be winning 30 games and competing for a national championship in his 4th year at the helm?
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Put another way, it only takes one great recruiting class to put a team into title contention (see Tom Crean). Groce has been swinging for the fences and just missing on every top PG and PF/C he's tried to lure here. Yet the same people who want him fired are probably the ones saying he should have gone after 3-4 star players at those positions, which would keep us pretty much where we are right now.
 
#363      
Obelix
Greensboro said:
Generally agree with this. He should survive this year & 2017 class is important to his and our future.

Just curious what defines a great class in your mind, since some are throwing out lists for 2017 that are pretty high? Overall ranking? Homeruns at position of need, such as grabbing the top 100 pg and C that you have mentioned a few times. Would Tilmon alone get you there with TJL signed for 2016? The names on our list right now could be as good or on par with any class Illinois has ever had, is that what it takes to be great?

From my perspective, maybe depends a little on who/if we get as a big in 2016. Absolutely need to add 2 bigs by then, 3 preferred. 1 or ideally 2 need to be able to play significant minutes at 5. Absolutely need another pg, one of TJL or a 2017 pg needs to start and the other is backup. Wings we have this year's 3 freshman and Kipper; 4 we have Finke/Black so we are just reloading at 2-4 and likely don't need home runs. So for me the bar is probably significantly better than top 100 at pg & especially at center, fill in at 2-3...but the stars are somewhat aligned for 2017 to be a very special class and at the same time if we can't nail this one it may be awhile before this opportunity comes up again.
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Top 5-10 recruiting class in the nation that includes at least 3 in the PG/C positions (with at least 1 in each).
 
#364      
IlliniJim20
Golfer63 said:
Trust me, you aren't going to salvage the 2017 class by firing him unless you can somehow pry Teflon John away from Kentucky. Also, if you fire him, JCL likely transfers and so does LB, and then TL likely backs out of his NLOI and sacrifices a semester of eligibility by going elsewhere.

And if you really think that how our current season is going is going to cause all the 2017 recruits to not come here, then explain to me how LSU and Texas A&M were able to pull in great classes this past season? They haven't been relevant for some time but somehow pulled in top 5 classes in 2015.

I could also throw Auburn into that mix but lets be honest, we all know that their scumbag coach is doing something shady to pull that off. Once a cheater, always a cheater. :D
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What evidence do you have that Coleman-Lands will transfer?

Not many D1 guys, especially starter types, want to sit out a year.
 
#365      
Jreed322
Obelix said:
Top 5-10 recruiting class in the nation that includes at least 3 in the PG/C positions (with at least 1 in each).
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So you think he should accomplish something that I'm not sure has ever been done at Illinois? No pressure...
 
#366      
DudeAbides
89illinigrad said:
Considering that we won only 19 last year, 22-24 wins and a 6 seed would be a step up with expectations that we would win more games next year.

By comparison, Beilein won 21 games in his 4th season at Michigan. Fran McCaffery won 20 games in his 4th season at Iowa. Why do all the naysayers expect Groce to be winning 30 games and competing for a national championship in his 4th year at the helm?
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Beilein had won nearly 500 total games when he arrived in Ann Arbor and was a very well established and respected coach. He took Michigan to the NCAA tournament in his 2nd year, Michigan's first in 11 years. McCaffery was very successful at Siena, making 3 straight tourney trips and winning his conference. He took over an Iowa program that was averaging 19 losses a year under Lickliter and was in shambles. He turned them around immediately. While I like Groce as a person, his current resume isn't in the same league as Fran and Beilein. With those two, you knew things were going to get better. Do we know that with Groce?

And like any new coaching hire, you don't expect national titles right away (unless you're a blue blood) but you do expect progress. We were getting worse every year under Groce until this year. 22 wins and a 6 seed would certainly be great, but that would mean no Tracy or Thorne for next year and we'd be facing the same problems we are facing this year regarding no size down low and suspect PG play. There is no reason to believe that without Thorne and Tracy next year that we'd be better than 22 wins. So the problem is that even subtracting the injuries this year, after 5 years we'd still be hovering around the 20-24 win range. That's simply not good enough for Illinois, or at least it shouldn't be.
 
#367      
Bailey
Hiring a guy with zero head coaching experience is a bad idea. Really bad. Especially if he has ties to the program. Makes the inevitable breakup all the more awkward and probably strung out.

If we're the caliber of program our fan base thinks we are, there's a dozen better options than Jerrance.
 
#368      
westms77
DudeAbides said:
I've been lurking on this forum for a while and felt the need to actually start contributing, starting here. I think we can assume that we'll end up with 16 or fewer wins this year (7-11 in B1G and 1 BTT win seems like a longshot at this point). But even at 16 wins, that puts Groce's 4 years at 23, 20, 19 and 16 wins with 1 NCAA tournament bid and 1 tourney win.

Compare that to Weber's last 4 years, the years that you said put us near ground zero. 24, 21, 20 and 17 wins. 1 more win per year and also 1 more NCAA tournament bid and the same tourney wins.

With no 2017 commits yet and a rather weak 16 class (TJL is a good player but 1 good player does not make a good class), can you honestly say that if Groce were fired he left the program in a better state than when he arrived? We've won fewer games, missed more tournaments and our roster will still be full of holes.

The injuries this year are bad but even a fully healthy team probably wins 22-24 games. Is that what we are expecting out of our coach in his 4th year? 22-24 wins and a 6 seed in the tournament? Have our expectations fallen this low that we're happy being a middle of the road B1G team that barely makes the tournament every year and is never a real threat to the B1G championship or a Final Four?
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Great points.....I'll admit I havn't seen TJL play but isn't he ranked around 200 on 247...Not saying rankings are everything but this kid better be an all time sleeper..man I hope so
 
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#369      
Deleted member 8405
I only follow basketball outside of the illini enough to be dangerous so I was hoping someone here may be able to answer my question. If the illini part ways with groce, which I personally hope they don't, and we hire a good AD would we have any chance to lure Tom thibodeau here or is he only looking to get back to the NBA?
 
#370      
Illini B-Ball Fan
IlliniGuy said:
I only follow basketball outside of the illini enough to be dangerous so I was hoping someone here may be able to answer my question. If the illini part ways with groce, which I personally hope they don't, and we hire a good AD would we have any chance to lure Tom thibodeau here or is he only looking to get back to the NBA?
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TT awaiting another NBA opening and highly unlikely would take a step down to become a college coach.
 
#371      
Chilliniwek
Can you imagine an in-home visit from Thibs? Most kids wouldn't have the courage to say no.
 
#372      
Jreed322
DudeAbides said:
Beilein had won nearly 500 total games when he arrived in Ann Arbor and was a very well established and respected coach. He took Michigan to the NCAA tournament in his 2nd year, Michigan's first in 11 years. McCaffery was very successful at Siena, making 3 straight tourney trips and winning his conference. He took over an Iowa program that was averaging 19 losses a year under Lickliter and was in shambles. He turned them around immediately. While I like Groce as a person, his current resume isn't in the same league as Fran and Beilein. With those two, you knew things were going to get better. Do we know that with Groce?

And like any new coaching hire, you don't expect national titles right away (unless you're a blue blood) but you do expect progress. We were getting worse every year under Groce until this year. 22 wins and a 6 seed would certainly be great, but that would mean no Tracy or Thorne for next year and we'd be facing the same problems we are facing this year regarding no size down low and suspect PG play. There is no reason to believe that without Thorne and Tracy next year that we'd be better than 22 wins. So the problem is that even subtracting the injuries this year, after 5 years we'd still be hovering around the 20-24 win range. That's simply not good enough for Illinois, or at least it shouldn't be.
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If someone guaranteed me 20-24 regular season wins for the next five years for Illinois I would take it immediately. I would've taken it 15 years ago too. It doesn't say anything about some hypothetical distance you think the program has fallen. 24 wins in any given year is a damn good record.
 
#373      
IlliniJim20
Cubby Blue said:
So how should it look if you took the preseason #1 point guard (Abrams), the preseason # 2 guard (Nunn), the preseason #4 (Leron) and the preseason #5 (Thorne) off the floor?

....
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I agree we would be seeing what we have seen on the floor, inconsistency and overall poor play.

The problem I see with what you are saying is this: you are relying on your #1 point guard, who is really be a combo guard, coming off a missed season due to injury. I suppose he falls into the category of "absence makes the heart grow fonder," because when he was on the floor he was commended for his toughness, but generally criticized for his point guard abilities. In sum, he was viewed as a combo guard trying to play point guard.

No argument on Nunn.

The other problem you cite is Leron Black: he showed flashes as a freshman, but an inability to remain on the floor in his limited time this year, due to foul trouble. In sum, you are gambling on improvement base on promise, not necessarily production.

Thorne: wrt to preseason #1 big man, you are also relying on a 5th year transfer. A transfer who was solid, but not spectacular at Charlotte. Unfortunately, he was the best we had, which goes back to recruiting. He did perform well, but the biggest test, the Big Ten season, his grade is incomplete.

I guess this summarizes the John Groce era: bad luck, missed recruting opportunities, no pg, no big man, . . .
 
#374      
Ulysses Everett McGill
Bailey said:
Hiring a guy with zero head coaching experience is a bad idea. Really bad. Especially if he has ties to the program. Makes the inevitable breakup all the more awkward and probably strung out.

If we're the caliber of program our fan base thinks we are, there's a dozen better options than Jerrance.
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+1. Ties to the program/inevitable breakup or not, JH w/b a bad idea IMO. With zero head coaching experience, I'd guess anyone advocating hiring him is assuming he'll just reel in enough talent to win regardless. Don't see it myself. Plus, to me, we've already had our breakup with JH.
 
#375      
DudeAbides
Jreed322 said:
If someone guaranteed me 20-24 regular season wins for the next five years for Illinois I would take it immediately. I would've taken it 15 years ago too. It doesn't say anything about some hypothetical distance you think the program has fallen. 24 wins in any given year is a damn good record.
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I would take it too. But that's my point. We shouldn't be in the position where we see 20-24 wins every year and immediately want that. From 01-06 we won at least 25 games every year. And that was with 1-2 fewer scheduled games per season. Add in an extra cupcake and that's at least 26 wins every season for 6 years straight with one of them having 37 wins.

Now we're talking about being happy with 20-24 wins every year for the next 5. The expectations have been lowered. People need to remember that this is a solid Tier 2 program after the blue bloods. We shouldn't be looking up to Iowa. We shouldn't be losing ground to Northwestern. We shouldn't be looking at the Purdue game at home this weekend and hoping that we keep it within 20. We shouldn't be okay with Groce failing to have a winning conference record in 4 years. I mean, come on guys. You can still be a loyal fan and have a critical view of the program. If we're okay with 20-24 wins every year then we're basically saying we're okay with being Iowa. I'm not okay with that.
 
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