John Groce at Illinois

Obelix · Jan 26, 2016

haasi said:
Agree. but w/r/t Deon - the purpose of adding him IMO would not be for recruiting, it would be to develop big men. Our post development has been poor - not a huge surprise given our lack of talented big prospects and the lack of post players among the coaching staff. Adding a big to the coaching staff could help (a) recruit and (b) develop bigs, neither of which we've done well (although some credit due to the staff for Mav's improvements this year.)

Aside from his playing career, not much suggests that Deon is that guy, but could be a good idea to add a coach who specializes in post development even if not strong in other areas (e.g. recruiting, Xs and Os).

I agree, but when it comes to recruiting and developing bigs and post players, the bar is currently so low that you don't need much of an athletic ability to jump over it.

I am trying to keep a realistic perspective though. I have doubts that Groce will make any changes to his coaching staff. I do not believe he will. But IF it happens, it will be maximum of one assistant. So it comes down to priorities. From the viable candidates (e.g., Dee, Roger, Deon) or even some lesser former HC's (you are not going to be able to attract the hot names, like Tony Barbee or Jeff Capel), I would go with Dee. That is JMO, others will disagree. Yet, again, I have doubts a change will be made.

zoggle101 · Jan 26, 2016

DudeAbides said:
Or even guys like Watson at this point. Our complete inability to land a top 100 PG, as Obelix has stated numerous times, will prove to be Groce's undoing at Illinois. If he landed Jackson or if Snider kept his verbal, nobody is questioning Groce's job status here at all.

London Perrantes would've been huge, too bad he pick UVa. Anyone think we should've offered Max B a scholarship instead of a preferred walk on spot? The kid absolutely loves to play against us.

Ransom Stoddard · Jan 26, 2016

zoggle101 said:
London Perrantes would've been huge, too bad he pick UVa. Anyone think we should've offered Max B a scholarship instead of a preferred walk on spot? The kid absolutely loves to play against us.

:thumb:

Granted he didn't do much his first 2 years at UM, but after that was a valuable contributor. Seeing him in Crimson & Cream after seeing him in Maize and Blue is a real punch in the gut.

Obelix · Jan 26, 2016

Big Jack said:
What is your thought on Judson.. Always liked the guy but wondering if we have burnt that bridge. I was watching the IU vs. NW game this weekend and thought why not hire Rob as head coach like SMU did with Brown. Then surround him with Howard and Dee with the plan to turn the program over to Jerrance in 2-3 years. I would not have a problem with it being Dee but wondering if he is really interested in being the head coach.. At one time Rob would have died to be the head coach here.

Rob Judson as a head coach at UI? He would not be a candidate, Judson will not be a candidate for any HM positions. He actually knows that, I think he understood that going into IU even as Dir. of Basketball Operations. Certain coaches understand that chances for HC positions will not happen, thus they are satisfied becoming long term assistants. I do not see Rob Judson's career as a HC candidate being resurrected anytime soon.

Vermilion Slim · Jan 26, 2016

Obelix said:
Rob Judson as a head coach at UI? He would not be a candidate, Judson will not be a candidate for any HM positions. He actually knows that, I think he understood that going into IU even as Dir. of Basketball Operations. Certain coaches understand that chances for HC positions will not happen, thus they are satisfied becoming long term assistants. I do not see Rob Judson's career as a HC candidate being resurrected anytime soon.

I agree that it would be a really big reach to have him as our head coach, but I do think he'll resurface as a head coach in the next five years unless he just doesn't want that life anymore. Honestly his NIU record is better than it looks when you consider he has the only two winning seasons at that school in the past 20 years and is the only coach to have them finish better than 4th in the MAC-West.

I think my dream assistant staff would be Judson, Roger, and Dee. It would be kind of like Duke's setup with Capel, James, and Scheyer.

jrichisamazing · Jan 26, 2016

How about what Fran McCaffery has done at Iowa. 2 NIT appearances in his first 3 seasons, NCAA last 4 in (11 seed) in his 4th year, 7 seed in his 5th year, and now potential B1G champion in his 6th year. Maybe we should have a little patience? I'd argue we would be a tourney team this year if healthy.

IllinoisFan733 · Jan 26, 2016

jrichisamazing said:
How about what Fran McCaffery has done at Iowa. 2 NIT appearances in his first 3 seasons, NCAA last 4 in (11 seed) in his 4th year, 7 seed in his 5th year, and now potential B1G champion in his 6th year. Maybe we should have a little patience? I'd argue we would be a tourney team this year if healthy.

Or look at Michigan. Injuries hurt them so much last year. They miss the tournament, now look at them!

IlliniOllie · Jan 26, 2016

jrichisamazing said:
How about what Fran McCaffery has done at Iowa. 2 NIT appearances in his first 3 seasons, NCAA last 4 in (11 seed) in his 4th year, 7 seed in his 5th year, and now potential B1G champion in his 6th year. Maybe we should have a little patience? I'd argue we would be a tourney team this year if healthy.

If our program had started out in as bad of shape as Lickliter left Iowa, and Groce had a track record like McCaffery did at Siena, and the third season ended with an NIT runner-up instead of the team completely caving in and quitting, then sure, I'd be more for a patient approach.

Fillory · Jan 27, 2016

jrichisamazing said:
How about what Fran McCaffery has done at Iowa. 2 NIT appearances in his first 3 seasons, NCAA last 4 in (11 seed) in his 4th year, 7 seed in his 5th year, and now potential B1G champion in his 6th year. Maybe we should have a little patience? I'd argue we would be a tourney team this year if healthy.

I'm inclined to agree with this. The recruiting is night and day compared to what it was under the last regime.

Golfer63 · Jan 27, 2016

jrichisamazing said:
How about what Fran McCaffery has done at Iowa. 2 NIT appearances in his first 3 seasons, NCAA last 4 in (11 seed) in his 4th year, 7 seed in his 5th year, and now potential B1G champion in his 6th year. Maybe we should have a little patience? I'd argue we would be a tourney team this year if healthy.

Some fans will take this quote and come back by saying that "Iowa is a middle tier job, and we are a top tier job. We should get turned around in 3 years or less. Etc. etc."

The notion that we are a more prestigious job than Iowa is actually true. We have more FFs, way more NCAA appearances, way more B1G championships, heck they hang banners at Carver-Hawkeye for freaking NIT appearances!

Back to my point, maybe we should have a little more patience. Look how many years it took Lou to get Illinois to be a top tier program. Or better yet, look at Coach K's first 3 or 4 years at Duke. Many people seem to have this notion that Duke was a similar program to say, Northwestern, before K took over. That couldn't be any further from the truth. Duke was actually a similar program to what Illinois is historically when K took over. They had 4 FFs at the time as well as several ACC championships.

Let's see how next year plays out where we return all but two guys. The talent is there. If next year flops and we don't land a great 17 class, then we can make a change.

ILL in IA · Jan 27, 2016

Big Jack said:
What is your thought on Judson.. Always liked the guy but wondering if we have burnt that bridge. I was watching the IU vs. NW game this weekend and thought why not hire Rob as head coach like SMU did with Brown. Then surround him with Howard and Dee with the plan to turn the program over to Jerrance in 2-3 years. I would not have a problem with it being Dee but wondering if he is really interested in being the head coach.. At one time Rob would have died to be the head coach here.

SMU got a hall of fame coach in Brown. We would get nothing but Judsoned.

RedRocksIllini · Jan 27, 2016

zoggle101 said:
London Perrantes would've been huge, too bad he pick UVa. Anyone think we should've offered Max B a scholarship instead of a preferred walk on spot? The kid absolutely loves to play against us.

Would be interesting to know what really went on with Max. Given the family's really strong ties to the U (if I remember right, one of his sisters is engaged or married to Meyers Leonard) it's hard to believe he wasn't given an offer. Hats off to the young man for how hard he's worked and how much he has developed. Has to be some satisfaction on his part to put it to us. I think this fail belongs on Bruce.

danielb927 · Jan 27, 2016

RedRocksIllini said:
Would be interesting to know what really went on with Max. Given the family's really strong ties to the U (if I remember right, one of his sisters is engaged or married to Meyers Leonard) it's hard to believe he wasn't given an offer. Hats off to the young man for how hard he's worked and how much he has developed. Has to be some satisfaction on his part to put it to us. I think this fail belongs on Bruce.

I dunno if you can necessarily blame Weber. Sometimes a kid just wants to leave his own legacy somewhere else. I went to high school with a lot of kids whose parents were profs at U of I but had no interest in staying in Champaign for school despite the obvious financial perks.

dmac279 · Jan 27, 2016

Golfer63 said:
Some fans will take this quote and come back by saying that "Iowa is a middle tier job, and we are a top tier job. We should get turned around in 3 years or less. Etc. etc."

The notion that we are a more prestigious job than Iowa is actually true. We have more FFs, way more NCAA appearances, way more B1G championships, heck they hang banners at Carver-Hawkeye for freaking NIT appearances!

Back to my point, maybe we should have a little more patience. Look how many years it took Lou to get Illinois to be a top tier program. Or better yet, look at Coach K's first 3 or 4 years at Duke. Many people seem to have this notion that Duke was a similar program to say, Northwestern, before K took over. That couldn't be any further from the truth. Duke was actually a similar program to what Illinois is historically when K took over. They had 4 FFs at the time as well as several ACC championships.

Let's see how next year plays out where we return all but two guys. The talent is there. If next year flops and we don't land a great 17 class, then we can make a change.

I would expect Iowa gets into more doors recruiting wise with the year they're having

DudeAbides · Jan 27, 2016

Golfer63 said:
Some fans will take this quote and come back by saying that "Iowa is a middle tier job, and we are a top tier job. We should get turned around in 3 years or less. Etc. etc."

The notion that we are a more prestigious job than Iowa is actually true. We have more FFs, way more NCAA appearances, way more B1G championships, heck they hang banners at Carver-Hawkeye for freaking NIT appearances!

Back to my point, maybe we should have a little more patience. Look how many years it took Lou to get Illinois to be a top tier program. Or better yet, look at Coach K's first 3 or 4 years at Duke. Many people seem to have this notion that Duke was a similar program to say, Northwestern, before K took over. That couldn't be any further from the truth. Duke was actually a similar program to what Illinois is historically when K took over. They had 4 FFs at the time as well as several ACC championships.

Let's see how next year plays out where we return all but two guys. The talent is there. If next year flops and we don't land a great 17 class, then we can make a change.

Patience works if you see progression. Fran, Lou and Coach K all saw major progression in wins and recruiting by their 4th year. Groce has seen the opposite. We've won fewer games every year than the last under Groce and our '16 class consists of a 3* PG and a 3* transfer. Our '17 class has 1 3* SG committed and nothing else. If you look at this from an objective viewpoint, it is really hard to see any serious progression under Groce that warrants additional patience.

RedRocksIllini · Jan 27, 2016

danielb927 said:
I dunno if you can necessarily blame Weber. Sometimes a kid just wants to leave his own legacy somewhere else. I went to high school with a lot of kids whose parents were profs at U of I but had no interest in staying in Champaign for school despite the obvious financial perks.

I thought I remembered that we offered a preferred walk-on (same as Michigan if my not-so-reliable memory serves). Just seemed odd that we didn't offer a full ride given the family. It was debatable coming out of high school whether he really was a B1G level player but he's certainly proven he is. Perhaps you're right on wanting to do his own thing. Ah, well. Ifs and buts.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Jan 27, 2016

RedRocksIllini said:
I thought I remembered that we offered a preferred walk-on (same as Michigan if my not-so-reliable memory serves). Just seemed odd that we didn't offer a full ride given the family. It was debatable coming out of high school whether he really was a B1G level player but he's certainly proven he is. Perhaps you're right on wanting to do his own thing. Ah, well. Ifs and buts.

I thought we offered the preferred walk on ride, then Michigan offered a full ride. Then we upped our offer to a full one, but he must have felt snubbed and went to Michigan.

Greensboro · Jan 27, 2016

zoggle101 said:
London Perrantes would've been huge, too bad he pick UVa. Anyone think we should've offered Max B a scholarship instead of a preferred walk on spot? The kid absolutely loves to play against us.

RedRocksIllini said:
Would be interesting to know what really went on with Max. Given the family's really strong ties to the U (if I remember right, one of his sisters is engaged or married to Meyers Leonard) it's hard to believe he wasn't given an offer. Hats off to the young man for how hard he's worked and how much he has developed. Has to be some satisfaction on his part to put it to us. I think this fail belongs on Bruce.

RedRocksIllini said:
I thought I remembered that we offered a preferred walk-on (same as Michigan if my not-so-reliable memory serves). Just seemed odd that we didn't offer a full ride given the family. It was debatable coming out of high school whether he really was a B1G level player but he's certainly proven he is. Perhaps you're right on wanting to do his own thing. Ah, well. Ifs and buts.

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
I thought we offered the preferred walk on ride, then Michigan offered a full ride. Then we upped our offer to a full one, but he must have felt snubbed and went to Michigan.

It was something like this, I was thinking Michigan offered a preferred walk on, then we offered the PWO, then we upped it to a full scholarship and Bruce was disappointed he didn't accept it on the spot, then Michigan upped to a scholarship, but I wouldn't bet money on who was first & it doesn't really matter at this point. We offered Max and we lost to Michigan, Michigan had been on him longer, and there certainly is some politics/expectation on Max & Illinois that are out of the ordinary in this case, so don't think anyone should cry long over the outcome.

TeBee5 · Jan 27, 2016

bleedsorangenblue said:
OK ... so some of you are unhappy. Wishing it were different does not make it so. Changing coaches at this point will likely put this program back even further. I don't see how anyone can think that Illinois would be able to hire a game-changer right now. See how happy you all will be then. :deadhorse:

+10000. You cannot hire anyone better at the moment. 1) No A.D. 2) Recent success is not as appealing as it was over 8 years ago.

No denying our program history is one of the best in the nation, but currently we are not. The state of the athletic program does not help the school/job appeal. The only way to improve is internally at this point.

I support Groce as coach of the UofI. Groce is somehow pulling good talent into C-U, wish one of them would be a game-changing 5 but beggars can't be choosers. If his team was fully healthy then this conversation would most likely not be happening. He is coaching without 3 of his top 7/8 players (not including the impact Paul would have made with the injuries that have occurred.) Don't get me wrong Paul is irrelevant at this point, but he there is no denying he would have contributed if still on the team. My point, with the talent Groce is currently working with he deserves to keep his job. We're not going to be on top of the B1G in a new coach's first 4-5 years while attempting to resurrect a down program. Until we establish a CONSISTENT product on the court (and off-court) recruits and "better" coaches will be hesitant to come.

Go ILL. Let's get one against tOSU on 1/28 :chief:

RedRocksIllini · Jan 27, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
I thought we offered the preferred walk on ride, then Michigan offered a full ride. Then we upped our offer to a full one, but he must have felt snubbed and went to Michigan.

Did some more checking and your memory is much better than mine. Sounds like Michigan didn't want him back this year even tho they had a scholly for him. He seems to be doing well at IU but you never know. Maybe not such a fail after all. Thanks for the correct info.

Greensboro · Jan 27, 2016

zoggle101 said:
London Perrantes would've been huge, too bad he pick UVa. Anyone think we should've offered Max B a scholarship instead of a preferred walk on spot? The kid absolutely loves to play against us.

For reference, here is news of the offer to Max

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=402724&postcount=1

Newman · Jan 27, 2016

In the end, winning or the lack thereof, is going trump any other factor, but progress under Groce shouldn't be evaluated just by looking at the W/L column IMO. There are too many factors in play for such a discussion to be one dimensional. There have been improvements in some areas, and regression in others. With systems change in general, you need at least a few years for implementation, and there's not a predetermined magical number in which you can start evaluating if the change is effective. Just like any other systems change, it is always a problem when there isn't enough time set for proper implementation (this is how most systems change fail). IMO, it's much more of a risk to rush into a change, then to err on the side of caution and keep a coach for another year (as long there is support from the administration).

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Jan 27, 2016

RedRocksIllini said:
Did some more checking and your memory is much better than mine. Sounds like Michigan didn't want him back this year even tho they had a scholly for him. He seems to be doing well at IU but you never know. Maybe not such a fail after all. Thanks for the correct info.

Yeah, I was surprised they cut him loose like that.

ssanti13 · Jan 27, 2016

Golfer63 said:
Some fans will take this quote and come back by saying that "Iowa is a middle tier job, and we are a top tier job. We should get turned around in 3 years or less. Etc. etc."

The notion that we are a more prestigious job than Iowa is actually true. We have more FFs, way more NCAA appearances, way more B1G championships, heck they hang banners at Carver-Hawkeye for freaking NIT appearances!

Back to my point, maybe we should have a little more patience. Look how many years it took Lou to get Illinois to be a top tier program. Or better yet, look at Coach K's first 3 or 4 years at Duke. Many people seem to have this notion that Duke was a similar program to say, Northwestern, before K took over. That couldn't be any further from the truth. Duke was actually a similar program to what Illinois is historically when K took over. They had 4 FFs at the time as well as several ACC championships.

Let's see how next year plays out where we return all but two guys. The talent is there. If next year flops and we don't land a great 17 class, then we can make a change.

Yep. In his first 4 seasons, coack K was getting run out of town.

Fillory · Jan 27, 2016

IllinoisFan733 said:
Or look at Michigan. Injuries hurt them so much last year. They miss the tournament, now look at them!

the Michigan comparison seems pertinent in this situation. Programs are built. Period. This current squad is hurt to say the least.

John Groce at Illinois

Obelix

zoggle101

Ransom Stoddard

Ordained Dudeist Priest

Obelix

Vermilion Slim

jrichisamazing

IllinoisFan733

IlliniOllie

Fillory

Golfer63

ILL in IA

RedRocksIllini

danielb927

Orange Krush Class of 2013

dmac279

DudeAbides

RedRocksIllini

WesterveltVictoryCigar

Greensboro

TeBee5

RedRocksIllini

Greensboro

Newman

WesterveltVictoryCigar

ssanti13

Fillory