I remember many posters saying Colbert was more BIG ready than Moore.:tsk:
John Groce at Illinois
- Status
He basically said that Illinois needs to get former players more involved with the program. He said that Illinois keeps hiring people with no interest or ties to the University and that they aren't connected to the University or use it as a stepping stone elsewhere. He relayed a story that when Weber exited, Eddie wanted to get an interview for the coaching job. He mentioned that he didn't expect to get the job but he thought he was owed at least the opportunity to interview given his experience. He said that he couldn't even get an interview because Mike Thomas didn't know who he was!
He said when he got recruited out of Chicago, the message given to him was that if he did well at the U of I and "made good," that the University would be there for him to try to get him back involved with the program later in life. He doesn't feel the University is taking advantage of those assets they have in former players.
He made a specific mention of Kirby Wilson being a guy prepared to coach who hasn't been included.
We've seen other players echo that same sentiment in the past and recently whether by constructive comments or somewhat bizarre comments like Sergio's. It's good they have a connection there with Dee and in football with Scheelhaase but it seems painfully obvious that the programs have dropped the ball with consistently keeping guys involved. And I too would like to see more emphasis placed on getting Illinois guys back somehow.
At the same time, it disappoints me that some of these former players don't understand that they can't get handed a program just because they are Illini guys. If there are more qualified guys, they need to understand that the position needs to go to the best qualified guy. All things being equal, it should go to an Illini guy but all things aren't always equal. I can't make an argument that Kirby Wilson is prepared to run a college football program (he's got mostly NFL experience and limited positional coaching in lower tier college programs) and I can't make an argument that Eddie is prepared to run a college basketball program (no coaching experience of which I am aware). UI isn't a training ground.
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
He basically said that Illinois needs to get former players more involved with the program. He said that Illinois keeps hiring people with no interest or ties to the University and that they aren't connected to the University or use it as a stepping stone elsewhere. He relayed a story that when Weber exited, Eddie wanted to get an interview for the coaching job. He mentioned that he didn't expect to get the job but he thought he was owed at least the opportunity to interview given his experience. He said that he couldn't even get an interview because Mike Thomas didn't know who he was!
He said when he got recruited out of Chicago, the message given to him was that if he did well at the U of I and "made good," that the University would be there for him to try to get him back involved with the program later in life. He doesn't feel the University is taking advantage of those assets they have in former players.
He made a specific mention of Kirby Wilson being a guy prepared to coach who hasn't been included.
We've seen other players echo that same sentiment in the past and recently whether by constructive comments or somewhat bizarre comments like Sergio's. It's good they have a connection there with Dee and in football with Scheelhaase but it seems painfully obvious that the programs have dropped the ball with consistently keeping guys involved. And I too would like to see more emphasis placed on getting Illinois guys back somehow.
At the same time, it disappoints me that some of these former players don't understand that they can't get handed a program just because they are Illini guys. If there are more qualified guys, they need to understand that the position needs to go to the best qualified guy. All things being equal, it should go to an Illini guy but all things aren't always equal. I can't make an argument that Kirby Wilson is prepared to run a college football program (he's got mostly NFL experience and limited positional coaching in lower tier college programs) and I can't make an argument that Eddie is prepared to run a college basketball program (no coaching experience of which I am aware). UI isn't a training ground.
Great synopsis, and bingo on the bolded. There are lots of folks on message boards that need to understand that fact as well.
I think a lot of programs are like this, especially when they were once good but now are down.
Ed Reed was pushing for the Miami Football job for goodness sakes.
Ed Reed was pushing for the Miami Football job for goodness sakes.
Yeah, I appreciate they want to be involved and see the program get back near the top. But somehow just about every other good program manages to do this without needing to rely on former players or people "connected" to the school. There's no magic there, find good coaches and hire them.
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
Where would they ever get that idea?
Oh wait, it's from boosters who maniacally insist on this being the most important thing about any candidate for any position.
Last night wasn't pretty, but a win is a win and I was damn glad to get it. That puts us at 3 conference wins. Looking at the schedule, I see four games that we can reasonably expect to win. That doesn't mean any individual game is a lock, but we can get a win @Northwestern, home against Rutgers, home against Minnesota, home against Penn State. And if we get Thorne back, who knows, maybe we can hang a little better with Wisconsin and pick up a 5th win.
Anyway, if Groce can get the 4 wins above, that would put us at 7 conference wins. I can no longer say I have faith in Groce to lead us to the promised land, but I think it would be ludicrous to get rid of Groce if he can get 7+ conference wins with the issues he's had to deal with this year. If he can get 7 or 8 wins, this season will be more of a testament to his leadership skills than a condemnation of his coaching chops, at least in my opinion.
That being said, we are a long way from 7 wins, but what is the magic number here? Obviously no one knows what our non-existant AD's criteria will be when making a decision, but I'm curious to know what some posters would see as a "successful" conference season given the circumstances.
Anyway, if Groce can get the 4 wins above, that would put us at 7 conference wins. I can no longer say I have faith in Groce to lead us to the promised land, but I think it would be ludicrous to get rid of Groce if he can get 7+ conference wins with the issues he's had to deal with this year. If he can get 7 or 8 wins, this season will be more of a testament to his leadership skills than a condemnation of his coaching chops, at least in my opinion.
That being said, we are a long way from 7 wins, but what is the magic number here? Obviously no one knows what our non-existant AD's criteria will be when making a decision, but I'm curious to know what some posters would see as a "successful" conference season given the circumstances.
ILL in IA
- Iowa City
So if he gets us to 7 wins in the conference. You still don't think he will get the program anywhere. And, if he gets us to 7 wins you think it says a lot about how good of a leader he actually is because we have had so many injuries to hold us back this year.
Wouldn't the 7 wins and proving his leadership be enough to restore some faith in him as the guy that can get it done?
ILL in IA
- Iowa City
Found the pod cast, good listen. Actually didn't hear the end of it like I thought. I heard them talking to the Coach from Chicago State. He was on right after Eddie. Was a pretty good listen as well on what's going on up there.He basically said that Illinois needs to get former players more involved with the program. He said that Illinois keeps hiring people with no interest or ties to the University and that they aren't connected to the University or use it as a stepping stone elsewhere. He relayed a story that when Weber exited, Eddie wanted to get an interview for the coaching job. He mentioned that he didn't expect to get the job but he thought he was owed at least the opportunity to interview given his experience. He said that he couldn't even get an interview because Mike Thomas didn't know who he was!
He said when he got recruited out of Chicago, the message given to him was that if he did well at the U of I and "made good," that the University would be there for him to try to get him back involved with the program later in life. He doesn't feel the University is taking advantage of those assets they have in former players.
He made a specific mention of Kirby Wilson being a guy prepared to coach who hasn't been included.
We've seen other players echo that same sentiment in the past and recently whether by constructive comments or somewhat bizarre comments like Sergio's. It's good they have a connection there with Dee and in football with Scheelhaase but it seems painfully obvious that the programs have dropped the ball with consistently keeping guys involved. And I too would like to see more emphasis placed on getting Illinois guys back somehow.
At the same time, it disappoints me that some of these former players don't understand that they can't get handed a program just because they are Illini guys. If there are more qualified guys, they need to understand that the position needs to go to the best qualified guy. All things being equal, it should go to an Illini guy but all things aren't always equal. I can't make an argument that Kirby Wilson is prepared to run a college football program (he's got mostly NFL experience and limited positional coaching in lower tier college programs) and I can't make an argument that Eddie is prepared to run a college basketball program (no coaching experience of which I am aware). UI isn't a training ground.
For details lays it into John Groce:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/forde-minutes--trying-to-predict-the-unpredictable-054638121-ncaab.html
Well said
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/forde-minutes--trying-to-predict-the-unpredictable-054638121-ncaab.html
Well said
It's not insane for a player to look at the program as it is now and think "I could do better".
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
No, it's not. But frankly, I look at the athletic department right now and think the same thing.
Rather surprised to see this simplistic view from Forde. This is particularly true after our stellar game against Rutgers last night .... :huh: but I digress.
From the casual viewer looking in this could be a logical conclusion. If you believe that our only key injuries are with Abrams and Thorne and all else are healthy or inconsequential now, maybe the team and coach have under-performed. I could go into all the other factors that make this view simplistic but they are well known here. Would have thought Forde better informed but this is just another hack job as far as I am concerned. Most analysts have given Groce and the team some props for their perseverance through adversity.
There's no question there has been adversity, but how well we've done against adversity is another question. Earlier, the pro-Groce crowd was saying Groce is doing well because any coach would have these results, or worse, with these injuries. With only Lewis, JCL, Nunn, Hill, et.al., this is about as good as it gets.
As the season results got worse and worse, I see more people simply saying he deserves a year, more or less, just because things were so bad when he got here 4 seasons ago. And besides, '17 recruiting would be hurt if we have turnover.
To any outside observer who knew about us during the Kruger, Self, and early Weber days, we just look like a disaster. I don't think Forde is uninformed, I think he just knows we're historically a LOT better than we've seen in the past 4 seasons.
The other argument, and the one I prefer, is the eye test. I could rattle off a half dozen BIG teams I expected us to lose to given the injuries. But I did not expect the games against Chicago St, Rutgers, Minnesota, etc. to be epic struggles. If Forde has watched any game besides maybe the Purdue game, we look pretty bad. KenPom has us ranked 134th. I have no idea how far back you have to go to get a similarly ranked team, but it would be a long way.
frozenrope9190
- Aurora, IL
This year, to me, is a wash.
I would judge him on next year's results, both from recruiting, playing, and W-L. If he's not able to right this ship, then I'm fine with searching for a new coach. It's not that my expectations are low, it's that I still believe in his vision when he took over. Go after the big names and be tireless recruiter, get a PG who can lead the team, a bunch of shooters in which the PG can kick it out, and 2 guys who can hang down low. I don't think it's the identity that hasn't been there, it is more that he hasn't been able to fill those pieces to make his vision come true. He's been so...damn...close... to hitting on those pieces that I think one more year in the trenches (and another year of learning) can get him over the hump and land the people that will make it a reality. It's just hard to be actually going through a lost season and still have faith. But I have it. And there's evidence that he is getting through to the recruits.
Can't hold on forever, I get it. I think one more season is fair on both sides. Then we either hit our stride or let it go and start fresh with someone else.
I would judge him on next year's results, both from recruiting, playing, and W-L. If he's not able to right this ship, then I'm fine with searching for a new coach. It's not that my expectations are low, it's that I still believe in his vision when he took over. Go after the big names and be tireless recruiter, get a PG who can lead the team, a bunch of shooters in which the PG can kick it out, and 2 guys who can hang down low. I don't think it's the identity that hasn't been there, it is more that he hasn't been able to fill those pieces to make his vision come true. He's been so...damn...close... to hitting on those pieces that I think one more year in the trenches (and another year of learning) can get him over the hump and land the people that will make it a reality. It's just hard to be actually going through a lost season and still have faith. But I have it. And there's evidence that he is getting through to the recruits.
Can't hold on forever, I get it. I think one more season is fair on both sides. Then we either hit our stride or let it go and start fresh with someone else.
Whoever gets the AD job should focus on one question about Groce: Is he an excellent basketball coach? If the answer is "yes" then stick with him - eventually he'll figure out the recruiting piece. If the answer is "no" then he should be let go this year.
I think the evidence to date - even adjusted for injuries - leans toward "no."
I think the evidence to date - even adjusted for injuries - leans toward "no."
How do you adjust evidence for injuries? Wouldn't that just be opinion instead of evidence?
Even if Groce isn't an excellent basketball coach, as if that's really a question that an AD would ask himself, the AD needs to believe that he could find a better candidate if he's going to get rid of someone after a rather incomplete evaluation of work.
Fantastic post.
As for your question, we are indeed 134th this year. Our lowest ranking ever is 82, the year Weber got fired. We're over 50 spots lower than that. Wow!
Edit: also, last season was the second worst ranking ever recorded. We've hit some hard times.
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I agree that the results this year quantitatively are pretty abysmal. What team's results wouldn't be when hobbled by 1/2 their roster being unavailable to them? The no excuses people are evaluating based on a roster that is incomplete in a season that is incomplete. I don't see how anyone can think this is fair. If you want to fire Groce based on the previous three years, maybe there is an argument. I don't think anyone wanted to fire Groce at the end of last year with the idea that this year would be the telling one. I am confident that if this year had gone as planned, this conversation would not even be happening. Groce deserves next year to provide the proof.
The word "successful" is not appropriate in this context. Barring a miracle and winning the B1G tournament to qualify for the NCAA, this season will never be successful, no matter what the circumstances. At this point, the team has to show improvement, win some regular season games, and ideally win a couple of B1G games to avoid disaster. But we are way beyond the point of discussing a "successful" season. That ship had sailed a long time ago.
I agree with this sentiment. If you thought he deserved to be fired after last year than so be it. But if you are basing it off of this year, a year that makes Murphy's law look optimistic, than I think you are making a rash decision. I think this year is really next to impossible to evaluate accurately. After last year I figured he had at least one more year to prove what he is so I would give him another year. I just think it would be poor form to fire him after a year where he had no conceivable chance to be successful after all of the injuries.
There are several pieces of evidence one could look at, including:
- his record
- nerdstats about his teams
- his ability to recruit / build a roster
- opinions about his coaching ability
Any objective analysis of his performance at Illinois would conclude that he is failing. The only argument for keeping him is a subjective projection about the future. Is making a decision next year based on whether we squeak into the NCAA tourney a better way to make the decision? Does squeaking into the tourney shed any more light on whether he's an excellent coach?
I think "opinions about his coaching ability" is very subjective but the rest are valid points. This season does not mean much, give the injuries, although I disagree with the premise that this team would have been a great team without injuries. It would have been a better team, a good team IMO, a tournament team, but nothing to rave about. But in either case, we will never find out, at the end, it is what it is. So arguing how good Groce would have done this year IF this and IF that is meaningless.
But even excluding this year, the rest of his coaching record at UI has been pretty blah, pretty average. Not bad considering the state of the program he inherited, but not good either. What has me more worried, however, as I have mentioned many times, is that I though we would be further ahead personnel wise. Four straight seasons, not even a single top-100 PG or C. That is disappointing. Going into the 5th year with very visible gaps in our roster. We should have been further ahead. No excuses there.
Overall, I think Groce should (and most probably will) get another year, although I understand the criticism and would be OK with whatever decision the new AD makes. Personally, I believe Groce needs an exceptional 2017 recruiting class though, a recruiting class that IMO should be a lot higher than most expect, a recruiting class that I personally have serious doubts he is capable of. Just squeaking into the tourney next year without an exceptional 2017 recruiting class will not make it. JMO.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
Fair has nothing to do with it. If you feel you can do better you move on, it's a business.
- Status