Illinivek23
- Gurnee
Didn't the DIA have a fan focus group at one time recently, whose purpose was to generate and evaluate ideas from their perspective?
Seems like a worthy Gies Project.
Memorial Stadium Game Day Experience
- Status
Seems like a worthy Gies Project.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Because of who Whitman is, what his background is, the people he surrounds himself with, everything is going to look to him like a capital campaign, a renovation, a chance to do something bright and shiny to deliver value to the loyal donor base and monetize their passion for the school and the program.
He's great at it.
But the sports industry standard playbook tells you not to devalue your product, and that you're only a couple winning seasons from selling out again and having that much more of a ticket buyer base to move along the conveyor belt of being a cash cow supporter of the program.
I think that's a misread of both the market for Illinois Football, and the industry generally.
I suspect I'm shouting into the breeze here, and just to warn everyone, what the playbook is going to call for is a "modernization" of the East and South stands which incorporate new premium seating options, raise ticket prices, and chop another 10k off of the capacity. The money is in the premium fan, not volume, so chuck the latter for developing the former. Whitman is thinking if we can squeeze 7-5 out of this year enough bigger fish will swim up that it will work.
I don't like that ideologically, and I also suspect it's not a plan that's going to be functional for Illinois. That was the original plan for what became with Smith Center, and it was abandoned for a reason.
The new TV deal will give some financial leeway to be flexible. Break all the rules putting more actual butts in actual seats during that TV deal, reassess where we are in 2030, and if we've left a bajillion dollars on the table by letting too many people in too cheap, understand that it's the greatest problem we could ever hope to have.
I suspect the real effect would only be a moderate one, and instead of being somewhat behind the curve of success-to-empty seats, we'll be somewhat ahead of it, amid broad trends of ticket demand softness in the industry, making less money per ticket sold than our peers. Do it anyway, that's a win, see it as a win.
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Are the existing suites filled? I can't see them from my current seats but in years past, I could. Looked like several were empty.
They were pretty filled Saturday
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Now, them hawking single-game suite packages to the general public is reflective of super low demand and the industry idea is that all your premium seating is spoken for on a long term multi-year basis by big fish, but still, yeah.
Premium seating has made ungodly amounts of money for the sports industry, but I'm telling you, at the cost of long term damage to the business. They will reap the whirlwind.
In this case it definitely seems like artificially creating scarcity is a pretty short-sighted strategy since the gameday experience matters way more in the NCAA than in the NFL in terms of both on-field and off-field impacts. If they're going to follow through with the planned reno of the horseshoe, I recall that wasn't intended to reduce capacity. And there's no reason why they couldn't do something like they did up at Michigan ten or so years ago to the east stand -- they primarily just added premium seats at the top of the bowl along with a new building, if I understand it correctly.
Based on what I've seen in the new premium areas for both football and basketball, there's a market for just creating a space for people to drink and mingle, so how close they are to the action is kind of incidental.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Totally agree. Someone might fairly point out a place like Autzen Stadium which is a very lit atmosphere with 54k, but more fans is always better.
They did say that, but it's tough to justify 60,670 when your biggest actual turnstile crowd in a decade was 47k. That proposed project was meant to do everything all at once, football facility, premium seating, concourse work, etc, but it cost too much, there was no market for the new premium stuff, and it wasn't as functional facility wise being disconnected from the indoor facility so Whitman very wisely delivered something quicker, cheaper and better for the actual football team. It has left unanswered questions in MS itself though.
That's right, but I don't think that would quite work architecturally with MS, though that's neither here nor there.
Yeah those premium club spaces associated with relatively "normal" seating is the new hotness.
But it comes at a cost of space in the facility. The prevailing business wisdom is that the last row of seats is the most expensive to build and brings in the least revenue so don't bother with it. This is why the Golden State Warriors downsized capacity in their new arena, why the state-of-the-art Allegiant Stadium in Vegas is one of the smallest in the NFL and why the Bears facility in Arlington Heights won't increase capacity the way some fans seem to think.
These are not small buildings, they just dedicate their volume to serve the high-dollar client as efficiently as possible while retaining a legacy facade as a mass entertainment venue, though that mask slips a little more with every new facility built. The majority of the gameday revenue comes from the small number of premium seats.
Sports became this colossal, money-raining industry through its adoption as a mass civic passion, a common language among communities, something deeply rooted and embedded in the experience of everyday people's lives. And premium seating was a genius marketing gimmick as a way to offer rich people and corporations this luxurious sense of connection with but also superiority over this common man entertainment. To be a VIP at the ballgame everybody cares about.
And slowly the little guy got priced out more and more and more and relative to the population there are fewer and fewer seats and so the common man watches on TV, but then more money can be made having slightly fewer watching on cable, then way fewer paying for a la carte streaming, etc etc etc.
The whole thing was built on the passion of the masses. When the masses are gone, the whole value proposition falls apart. The total aggregate attendance at the big four pro sports leagues as a percentage of the population peaked well over a decade ago and is declining. Greed is good, they told us. Well, here comes the bill.
(Lol, sorry, been wanting to get that off my chest in a variety of threads lately)
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Cook
- Richmond, VA
For students, I've wondered why not utilize those first few sideline rows that they were (still do?) blocking off and not selling because the views are obstructed by the teams. If you're not going to sell them to anyone, give them to students.
It's called the Fan Council. The description is included on the fightingillini.com website ( https://fightingillini.com/sports/2015/6/30/fancouncil.aspx ) along with an application for anyone who wishes to get their suggestions directly to the DIA.
Fan Council had a influence in the decision to sell beer at football and basketball games. Covid stopped a lot of meetings and took up too much time for a lot of other stuff to make its way through but it should get back on track again now.
I think DIA is at least trying to get our input even if they're not reading and writing on message boards.
If you thought the attendance last Saturday was bad, just wait until a Thursday night game against a FCS team.
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
What doesn't get mentioned a lot regarding the decline in attendance is that every game is on TV. That in and of itself will reduce the motivation of some segment of the market, especially those whose focus is solely on watching the game rather than taking in all the rest of the experience.
Then add-in the sub-par on-field product we've had for the best part of 30 years and staying home makes way more sense for a lot of people. Now those people have become accustomed to watching the game on their couch with their own beers, food, etc., not having to hassle with parking, ticket prices, and all the rest, and you've got some permanent attrition. I don't think you can get a lot of those people back, but as many have said in this thread, the DIA needs to work extremely hard to create new fans whose preferred experience is Grange Grove, not ESPN GameDay.
Then add-in the sub-par on-field product we've had for the best part of 30 years and staying home makes way more sense for a lot of people. Now those people have become accustomed to watching the game on their couch with their own beers, food, etc., not having to hassle with parking, ticket prices, and all the rest, and you've got some permanent attrition. I don't think you can get a lot of those people back, but as many have said in this thread, the DIA needs to work extremely hard to create new fans whose preferred experience is Grange Grove, not ESPN GameDay.
If we can sell out the student basketball schedule, one day we should be able to sell out the student football schedule. We just need to continue to improve the product. This proves that a winning and exciting program can fill seats.
Apples and oranges.
You'd have to compare costs as well.
We're nowhere close to a top 10 program in football. I'm not sure what level of success would have to happen to get student sell outs there.
What is a sell out for student football? Is it 3000 or more?
Where are the seats located? Being near the floor in basketball is a lot different than being in the end zone in football.
On the positive side, football game day with tailgating has the potential to be a bigger event. When we had it going in the 80s, tailgating all day and grabbing your seat on the 50 yard line was a big deal.
Joel Goodson
- respect my decision™
It's already been proven. Mike White did it, coming off the heels of the Moleface era, no less.
BB might be doing it right now we’re competitive in the view of my eyes under him. We start consistently being able to beat the Iowa’s, Wisconsin’s, MSU’s and we are in the game. Mike White did not win 11 games a year for 20 years to be some legend. He made the games fun, we always felt like we were in most games and once in a while we beat scUM and tOSU.
Until we get there I am in agreement with most let students in for free. Maybe now that you can drink at a college game it will be”the thing to do” once again?
Until we get there I am in agreement with most let students in for free. Maybe now that you can drink at a college game it will be”the thing to do” once again?
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
There are only 3,000 student seats for basketball, the NEZ alone is over 5,000 I believe. So it is a different challenge.
I just think the question is less "how do we sell out student season tickets" and more "how many students could we get in the door?"
The idea that we're X number of wins away from the law of supply and demand solving this for us begins to feel like an excuse not to think a bit more creatively having not had a full house in over a decade.
(Incidentally, the last "sellout" before the Lovie UNC game was purportedly the Michigan game in Zook's last year. I happened to be up in the East Balcony with my Dad for that one, it was a good crowd, more people than usual up there, but not even close to a full house.)
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal
And just to underscore the category difference between football and basketball, we need to get it firmly established that the football games are worth being at for students. Maybe this has improved since my time there, but even when we had competitive teams it was an open question whether you'd be able to get students to use free tickets.
The number of foreign students is often brought up as an obstacle. Basketball would be a much more attractive proposition for them to attend than football (ie. NBA vs. NFL popularity overseas).
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Amazing contributions by all in this thread, especially @ChiefGritty! Regarding your comment that the UNC game crowd was a near-unbelievable 13,000 seats short of a sellout, it got me thinking about something I have complained about before. (I believe) these pics are all from the 2016 UNC "fake sellout" ... do any of these crowds look 13k below capacity??
I do not doubt that we actually only scanned about 48,000 tickets, so I think this reinforces my belief that our setup of seats is absolutely terrible, and there should not be one single seat under the upper deck overhang - which is where I bet 80% of those empty seats actually are. I feel like the goal for our stadium, as we currently stand as a program, should be to make the SMALLEST number of seats look the BIGGEST as a structure ... right now, we are pretty much doing the opposite, as in many ways our stadium looks/feels even smaller than 60k. We need 55k to look like 65k. Look at these stadiums, which range from barely bigger than ours to significantly smaller:
Jack Trice Stadium (Iowa State) - 61,500
T. Boone Pickens Stadium (Oklahoma State) - 55,509
Autzen Stadium (Oregon) - 54,000
Huntington Bank Stadium (Minnesota) - 50,805
McLane Stadium (Baylor) 45,140
Every one of these stadiums uses its space so much better than we do. I get a lot of them are new stadiums, but we are talking about renovations in this thread, no? Jack Trice was old and dinky just a few years ago. All bring their seats down close to the field. The ones with upper decks put absolutely no seats underneath an overhang. All prioritize symmetry (this is one of the aspects of the first Memorial Stadium renovation that has REALLY started to age poorly, if you ask me ... our stadium looks completely disjointed the more time passes, IMO). And, most importantly, all are SO much more imposing than Memorial Stadium. They feel enclosed and tall and intimidating.
It bothers me that the aesthetic of Memorial Stadium seems to be about the DIA's lowest priority, and it is an incredibly underrated aspect in getting fans to simply want to be there for the social event - even if the football team is subpar. And I think it speaks to a very basic blind spot so many have in the U of I leadership, which I have always been bothered by but often struggled to articulate: it is a HUGE institutional/structural issue that the University of Illinois has such a transactional relationship with its fans and alumni. Want a world class degree? Come to the U of I, pay us a ton of money and we will set you up for a great career! The DIA wants more fans in the stands? Just win football games, and hope alumni and Champaign County residents JUST cannot fathom staying away from the stadium!!
Sports are emotional, and our rival fan bases in the Big Ten seem to have a much more sentimental attachment to their sports programs - usually ones that have been grown since childhood. Iowa fans are furious and depressed, but there will be 65k+ at Kinnick Stadium this coming Saturday for no other reason than it's FUN, and it is where their other friends will be anyway! Memorial Stadium needs to be a social event in and of itself where you go regardless of the product on the field. For students, that needs to mean rowdy tailgating and an in-game setup where it's a giant coed rager. For young families, that needs to mean an excellent facility where you can kick back and introduce the kids to Illini football - something that should be a tradition they're LEARNING each Saturday! For longtime season ticketholders and donors, that needs to mean excellent amenities and great seats with great views. For EVERYONE, it needs to mean a fun, exciting atmosphere. I do not have all of the perfect fixes, but I can tell you they are way more subtle than people think.
I like going to Memorial Stadium for no other reason than I LOVE the Illini. I like going to Kinnick Stadium and Camp Randall because I know, that no matter how the game goes, it will simply be a great time. The "business-like" atmosphere in Memorial Stadium is palpable, and it's a huge problem. 90% of fans there view it as going to an okay stadium to watch a football team - it should be something that the residents of Champaign County and the surrounding communities would be afraid to miss for completely non-sports-related reasons, regardless of the outcome of the game, and that simply starts with making it fun.
I do not doubt that we actually only scanned about 48,000 tickets, so I think this reinforces my belief that our setup of seats is absolutely terrible, and there should not be one single seat under the upper deck overhang - which is where I bet 80% of those empty seats actually are. I feel like the goal for our stadium, as we currently stand as a program, should be to make the SMALLEST number of seats look the BIGGEST as a structure ... right now, we are pretty much doing the opposite, as in many ways our stadium looks/feels even smaller than 60k. We need 55k to look like 65k. Look at these stadiums, which range from barely bigger than ours to significantly smaller:
Jack Trice Stadium (Iowa State) - 61,500
T. Boone Pickens Stadium (Oklahoma State) - 55,509
Autzen Stadium (Oregon) - 54,000
Huntington Bank Stadium (Minnesota) - 50,805
McLane Stadium (Baylor) 45,140
Every one of these stadiums uses its space so much better than we do. I get a lot of them are new stadiums, but we are talking about renovations in this thread, no? Jack Trice was old and dinky just a few years ago. All bring their seats down close to the field. The ones with upper decks put absolutely no seats underneath an overhang. All prioritize symmetry (this is one of the aspects of the first Memorial Stadium renovation that has REALLY started to age poorly, if you ask me ... our stadium looks completely disjointed the more time passes, IMO). And, most importantly, all are SO much more imposing than Memorial Stadium. They feel enclosed and tall and intimidating.
It bothers me that the aesthetic of Memorial Stadium seems to be about the DIA's lowest priority, and it is an incredibly underrated aspect in getting fans to simply want to be there for the social event - even if the football team is subpar. And I think it speaks to a very basic blind spot so many have in the U of I leadership, which I have always been bothered by but often struggled to articulate: it is a HUGE institutional/structural issue that the University of Illinois has such a transactional relationship with its fans and alumni. Want a world class degree? Come to the U of I, pay us a ton of money and we will set you up for a great career! The DIA wants more fans in the stands? Just win football games, and hope alumni and Champaign County residents JUST cannot fathom staying away from the stadium!!
Sports are emotional, and our rival fan bases in the Big Ten seem to have a much more sentimental attachment to their sports programs - usually ones that have been grown since childhood. Iowa fans are furious and depressed, but there will be 65k+ at Kinnick Stadium this coming Saturday for no other reason than it's FUN, and it is where their other friends will be anyway! Memorial Stadium needs to be a social event in and of itself where you go regardless of the product on the field. For students, that needs to mean rowdy tailgating and an in-game setup where it's a giant coed rager. For young families, that needs to mean an excellent facility where you can kick back and introduce the kids to Illini football - something that should be a tradition they're LEARNING each Saturday! For longtime season ticketholders and donors, that needs to mean excellent amenities and great seats with great views. For EVERYONE, it needs to mean a fun, exciting atmosphere. I do not have all of the perfect fixes, but I can tell you they are way more subtle than people think.
I like going to Memorial Stadium for no other reason than I LOVE the Illini. I like going to Kinnick Stadium and Camp Randall because I know, that no matter how the game goes, it will simply be a great time. The "business-like" atmosphere in Memorial Stadium is palpable, and it's a huge problem. 90% of fans there view it as going to an okay stadium to watch a football team - it should be something that the residents of Champaign County and the surrounding communities would be afraid to miss for completely non-sports-related reasons, regardless of the outcome of the game, and that simply starts with making it fun.
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redwingillini11
White and Sixth
- North Aurora
I NEVER would have thought that Pickens Stadium at OSU was only 55k. You are so right all of those stadiums do way more with less and no one would ever criticize them for being too small. We have our challenge cut out for us with such a historic structure, but I have no doubt we could do better. We should get rid of the seats that are under the overhang, and go ahead and turn those into club spaces. Build a SEZ structure kind of like what is in the NEZ at Kinnick and put it right up against the field.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Yep, I am not an architect, and this certainly won't be done with my money
... but the fixes needed to at least make Memorial Stadium "good enough" really don't seem that hard. The space and "bones" are there, and we really do not need to tear too much down or replace too much to have a VERY significant improvement.I am not sure how many seats are in each row, but according to this seat map, there are nine sections (101-109) that each have nine rows (51-59) for a total of 81 rows underneath that overhang ... if you removed all of those and put them in front of and behind/above the current horseshoe seats, you do not have to increase capacity one single seat (and might even reduce it...), and yet you can make the stadium look infinitely better and more architecturally sensible.
Yeah, that's really the key. Football games used to be an event. My fraternity had a block of seats with our partner sorority and for most games we probably had a good hundred or so people in the block. We grilled brats and drank before the game, watched the game with varying degrees of attention, then went back to the House to party afterwards. Residence halls used to do the same thing. It sounds like that no longer happens, which is unfortunate.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Okay, finding out our stadium's capacity by section has become my official procrastinating obsession for today. The seat map site I linked above actually makes this pretty easy, but any season ticketholders know how many seats are in each row of the various sections?
The seat map site I linked above actually makes this pretty easy, but any season ticketholders know how many seats are in each row of the various sections?IMO a lot of the problems with Memorial Stadium layout started when they removed the track and then did nothing with the empty space that was left. My memory is not good enough to remember when exactly this happened. I know it happened some time in the 80s because we actually hosted the NCAA track championships in 1977 and 1979. It's pretty difficult to find an image with the track in place, but you can see that this accounted for the empty area on the south end (and that temporary bleachers used to cover that empty space).
The space on the north end was pretty well taken up with the new stands and additional construction. Something permanent was never really done on the south. Hope it will be addressed next.
BTW, the original design was pretty darn cool.
The space on the north end was pretty well taken up with the new stands and additional construction. Something permanent was never really done on the south. Hope it will be addressed next.
BTW, the original design was pretty darn cool.
- Status