Michigan 13, Western Michigan 12

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#526      
spotter
Mr. Tibbs said:
agree

track is a sport where milliseconds matter

football is a game where white lines & yards & inches matter .

it’s all very embarrassing for the B1G & by extension , Michigan as the home team playing a MAC in-state little-brother school

I don’t think the year is going to go well for them & will be very surprised if they finish better than 9-3.
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10 years ago this game would have been over and no one would have argued it. Now replay can break things down frame by frame and tenths of a second.

A philosophical question has been going around in amateur officiating circles (not associated with the B1G). "Do we need to be THAT good when a call like this goes to replay?"
 
#527      
illiniwil
i had a friend who bets football a lot more thana i do. His comment was
the jump in point spread for the Michigan Oklahoma game with 2/3 of the
dollars being dumped on OU could turn into one of the biggest win for
Vegas ever. I'm not implying that the fix is in, he was......
 
#528      
Point-Illinois
Someone posted the video of the “trouble with the snap” end of game sequence back on page 18 of this thread.

The overarching, fundamental “oops” with the whole WMU game is that the replay booth felt the need to parse out whether there was time left.

In the “trouble with the snap game” they did not. (Even though there probably was) So why the immediate jump to the replay booth in this instance?
 
#529      
illiniwil
when does a second matter? how often does a clock run a second or two long after a tackle of a sideline pass, or
in a drive to end a half when a team runs to the line of scrimmage and an official holds the offense up while
everyone gets into position. football is not a millisecond game. clock said 0.0 when the game ended, UWM wins
end of this discussion.
 
#530      
hangdog
spotter said:
10 years ago this game would have been over and no one would have argued it. Now replay can break things down frame by frame and tenths of a second.

A philosophical question has been going around in amateur officiating circles (not associated with the B1G). "Do we need to be THAT good when a call like this goes to replay?"
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Agreed.

But why was there an obvious discrepancy in the "visible" clocks? The "synch" was apparently flawed. Doesn't that fall on the network? I understand no one wants to point their finger at the revenue source, but is anyone calling NBC on the carpet?

This appears to be another case of technology solving issues, until humans fail in using it correctly.
 
#531      
Retro62
Part of the frustration is that they delved so deeply into this while missing such obvious penalties on scUM during the game. It makes it look like obvious favoritism, even if they are able to justify their decision. And yes, I know, "welcome to college football."
 
#532      
ChiefGritty
Point-Illinois said:
From what I can tell it seems Gritty is saying the replay booth made the wrong call. (To answer your question directly)

They made the wrong call based off how replay procedures should be enacted. Indisputable must mean indisputable and the video the replay booth had and (comparatively quickly I might add) made a decision on was not indisputable, in CG’s opinion.

Everything afterwards (footage showing one second left) is moot, as the LSU President likes to say.

Gritty, please course correct me here if I’m off.

(also just to not be a bystander on the fence here, I agree with Gritty that they didn’t reach the threshold of “indisputable” with that replay)
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And I get that on some level the Zaprudering showing the in-stadium reality to be at worst unclear, arguably supporting the call, and very very clearly showing that the NBC replay was not aligned with the stadium clock makes the case for unprecedented action to overturn the result much weaker. I don't deny that, I feel that too. If the NBC replay were correct we've got a different story here.

But I think jumping from that to "this whole thing is just dumb meatballs on the internet who don't understand the rules making strained arguments to support their biased narrative" (which, to be clear, is definitely part of it) is evasive of the question of what the replay officials are actually supposed to do in that situation under the rules that govern their decisions.

There's stuff we don't and can't know about that, making it a bit less fun than the Zapruder stuff, but we have what the Big Ten released, and that makes a mockery of "indisputable video evidence".

And we're Guys On The Internet so naturally it's lawyering technicalities to death that has status in the conversation, but I continue to maintain that the philosophical questions are what actually matter here.
 
#533      
RabidDawgClassic
ugottabjoshinme said:
I don't think the NCAA actually has the authority to overturn a game.
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They have the authority, but they say they don’t have “the mechanism.” They claim there is no precedent for doing so, but that begs the question as to whether they’ve heard of the concept of setting the precedent.
 
#534      
ChiefGritty
I'm sorry @sbillini , no shots at you personally, I had to do it

b0wyyl.jpg


(Michigan fans are really the living embodiment of the midwit meme aren't they?)
 
#535      
RabidDawgClassic
hangdog said:
Agreed.

But why was there an obvious discrepancy in the "visible" clocks? The "synch" was apparently flawed. Doesn't that fall on the network? I understand no one wants to point their finger at the revenue source, but is anyone calling NBC on the carpet?

This appears to be another case of technology solving issues, until humans fail in using it correctly.
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I don’t know how I can make this any clearer, but the clock shown in this screenshot is a live camera shot of the clock in the stadium, inlaid on the broadcast screen. It’s not a syncing issue as this is not the network’s graphic bug.

While there is often a lag between the live game itself and what people see at home (if you’ve ever watched a game on your phone while in the stands you’ve noticed this), there is not a lag between individual cameras inside the stadium. If there were, you’d sometimes see a team break the huddle in one shot, then on the next shot they break it again. That just doesn’t happen.

So, obviously there was a syncing issue somewhere between the stadium clock and the replay clock. But make no mistake, what people saw inside the stadium was the same as this image.


IMG_6990.jpeg
 
#536      
ChiefGritty
RabidDawgClassic said:
But make no mistake, what people saw inside the stadium was the same as this image.
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I really really wish that were true, but all the fan video show that not to be the case. 18 turns as he attempts to catch the ball, and he's several frames further into that turn when the stadium clock above him hits 0:00.

Any picture-in-picture of two "live" shots is by nature relying on syncing and potential error. Which only further strengthens the case for leaving the play with the call on the field in that situation.
 
#537      
Fly Illini Fly!
RabidDawgClassic said:
I don’t know how I can make this any clearer, but the clock shown in this screenshot is a live camera shot of the clock in the stadium, inlaid on the broadcast screen. It’s not a syncing issue as this is not the network’s graphic bug.
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It’s not a live camera on the stadium, because the ball is still in his hands at 1sec when we look at the stadium clock:
IMB_DxV17P.gif


Slowed even more:

IMB_qORlBk.gif
 
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#538      
hangdog
I'm sorry, but I don't think people sitting next to the camera operator who captured the screenshot you provided saw a clock at the bottom left of their field of vision.

That clock we see in your screenshot was a pic-in-pic insert of another shot provided by another camera that captured video of A clock for the TV audience, not for those inside the stadium. But I'm sure you know that. So please help me understand what you mean by "what people saw inside the stadium was the same as this image."

Based on the fan end-zone video showing both the ball and A clock in the shot (with a second still showing), there is at least some reason to believe the pic-in-pic shot you provided (that was on TV) and the clock captured by the fan in the audience weren't in sync.

Or am I missing something?
 
#540      
KBLEE
ChiefGritty said:
I really really wish that were true, but all the fan video show that not to be the case. 18 turns as he attempts to catch the ball, and he's several frames further into that turn when the stadium clock above him hits 0:00.

Any picture-in-picture of two "live" shots is by nature relying on syncing and potential error. Which only further strengthens the case for leaving the play with the call on the field in that situation.
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There's more than one clock in the stadium. Is it possible that the NBC camera was fixed on a different clock (not the one on the scoreboard) and that the stadium clocks were not in sync?
 
#541      
ChiefGritty
KBLEE said:
There's more than one clock in the stadium. Is it possible that the NBC camera was fixed on a different clock (not the one on the scoreboard) and that the stadium clocks were not in sync?
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What video we have facing the opposite end zone doesn't seem to support that, but it's impossible to entirely rule that out on the evidence we've got.

One of the big mysteries in all of this is that on WMU's last field goal with ~35 seconds left the NBC scorebug is accurate to within a frame of the stadium clock at the opposite end zone of the final play. Then on the final play it seems to be at least 4 or so frames off of that same stadium clock. How the heck did that happen?
 
#544      
Illini2010-11
When is all said and done, Western Michigan will be the big losers here, as they will not have an official win in the books. It is my hope that if they are in contention for a CFP spot, that they get this game viewed as a win. Really feel for Western Michigan players, students, alumni, and fans.

In the end though, I expect that if Michigan is on the bubble for making the CFP (do not think they will end up anywhere close to here), the committee will likely view this game as a loss for Michigan when comparing close resumes.
 
#545      
Battle89
Fly Illini Fly! said:
How about Western Michigan defends one last Hail Mary, and we don’t have to talk about any of this?

They even called a timeout. They put six guys in the box, so it basically meant 5 on 5 in the end zone.
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So what you're saying is that we can blame an overreaction to UAB putting one rusher on our Hail Mary ;)
 
#546      
sbillini
I'm sorry sbillini , no shots at you personally, I had to do it

b0wyyl.jpg


(Michigan fans are really the living embodiment of the midwit meme aren't they?)
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for some reason pic isn't loading for me, so can't enjoy it. But what I will say, regardless of what the pic is, i'm not going to take it personally (outside of obvious extreme examples lol). I can handle it! Plus I know i'm taking an unpopular position here, so just comes with the territory and always enjoy a good, thoughtful debate that is typically the case here.

I've been on IL for probably 15+ years now. It's like a second home...and, as you can probably tell, where I spend way too much of my downtime. Outside of a handful of extreme examples over the years, never have i seen anything that crosses a line. it's one of the things that makes this forum great (and relatively unique of the forums i've seen). I-L-L!

with that said, i still stand by my assertion. the right call was ultimately made and made appropriately. the only open question in my mind is mike pareira's assertion that they should revert to broadcast clock if there is a discrepancy. But sounds like that's not an actual NCAA rule so not sure how to interpret that. And there certainly wasn't any willful ignorance or nefarious intentions in the call that was made and, ultimately, was the right call if you believe the scoreboard clock is the source of truth (which i do).
 
#547      
illiniwil
They have the authority, but they say they don’t have “the mechanism.” They claim there is no precedent for doing so, but that begs the question as to whether they’ve heard of the concept of setting the precedent.
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correction, the NCAA has no authority, period. they are officially a joke. one with a huge bank account
that the rest of ncaa sports will be fighting over when they are dissolved. it will happen sooner than you
think.
 
#550      
altgeld88
Fantastic that this thread has been alive for six days (incl the Games thread.) Well done, all.
 
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