Michigan 13, Western Michigan 12

#501      
ChiefGritty
I'm sorry @sbillini , no shots at you personally, I had to do it

b0wyyl.jpg


(Michigan fans are really the living embodiment of the midwit meme aren't they?)
 
#502      
RabidDawgClassic
hangdog said:
Agreed.

But why was there an obvious discrepancy in the "visible" clocks? The "synch" was apparently flawed. Doesn't that fall on the network? I understand no one wants to point their finger at the revenue source, but is anyone calling NBC on the carpet?

This appears to be another case of technology solving issues, until humans fail in using it correctly.
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I don’t know how I can make this any clearer, but the clock shown in this screenshot is a live camera shot of the clock in the stadium, inlaid on the broadcast screen. It’s not a syncing issue as this is not the network’s graphic bug.

While there is often a lag between the live game itself and what people see at home (if you’ve ever watched a game on your phone while in the stands you’ve noticed this), there is not a lag between individual cameras inside the stadium. If there were, you’d sometimes see a team break the huddle in one shot, then on the next shot they break it again. That just doesn’t happen.

So, obviously there was a syncing issue somewhere between the stadium clock and the replay clock. But make no mistake, what people saw inside the stadium was the same as this image.


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#503      
ChiefGritty
RabidDawgClassic said:
But make no mistake, what people saw inside the stadium was the same as this image.
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I really really wish that were true, but all the fan video show that not to be the case. 18 turns as he attempts to catch the ball, and he's several frames further into that turn when the stadium clock above him hits 0:00.

Any picture-in-picture of two "live" shots is by nature relying on syncing and potential error. Which only further strengthens the case for leaving the play with the call on the field in that situation.
 
#504      
Fly Illini Fly!
RabidDawgClassic said:
I don’t know how I can make this any clearer, but the clock shown in this screenshot is a live camera shot of the clock in the stadium, inlaid on the broadcast screen. It’s not a syncing issue as this is not the network’s graphic bug.
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It’s not a live camera on the stadium, because the ball is still in his hands at 1sec when we look at the stadium clock:
IMB_DxV17P.gif


Slowed even more:

IMB_qORlBk.gif
 
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#505      
hangdog
I'm sorry, but I don't think people sitting next to the camera operator who captured the screenshot you provided saw a clock at the bottom left of their field of vision.

That clock we see in your screenshot was a pic-in-pic insert of another shot provided by another camera that captured video of A clock for the TV audience, not for those inside the stadium. But I'm sure you know that. So please help me understand what you mean by "what people saw inside the stadium was the same as this image."

Based on the fan end-zone video showing both the ball and A clock in the shot (with a second still showing), there is at least some reason to believe the pic-in-pic shot you provided (that was on TV) and the clock captured by the fan in the audience weren't in sync.

Or am I missing something?
 
#507      
KBLEE
ChiefGritty said:
I really really wish that were true, but all the fan video show that not to be the case. 18 turns as he attempts to catch the ball, and he's several frames further into that turn when the stadium clock above him hits 0:00.

Any picture-in-picture of two "live" shots is by nature relying on syncing and potential error. Which only further strengthens the case for leaving the play with the call on the field in that situation.
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There's more than one clock in the stadium. Is it possible that the NBC camera was fixed on a different clock (not the one on the scoreboard) and that the stadium clocks were not in sync?
 
#508      
ChiefGritty
KBLEE said:
There's more than one clock in the stadium. Is it possible that the NBC camera was fixed on a different clock (not the one on the scoreboard) and that the stadium clocks were not in sync?
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What video we have facing the opposite end zone doesn't seem to support that, but it's impossible to entirely rule that out on the evidence we've got.

One of the big mysteries in all of this is that on WMU's last field goal with ~35 seconds left the NBC scorebug is accurate to within a frame of the stadium clock at the opposite end zone of the final play. Then on the final play it seems to be at least 4 or so frames off of that same stadium clock. How the heck did that happen?
 
#510      
Illini2010-11
When is all said and done, Western Michigan will be the big losers here, as they will not have an official win in the books. It is my hope that if they are in contention for a CFP spot, that they get this game viewed as a win. Really feel for Western Michigan players, students, alumni, and fans.

In the end though, I expect that if Michigan is on the bubble for making the CFP (do not think they will end up anywhere close to here), the committee will likely view this game as a loss for Michigan when comparing close resumes.
 
#511      
Battle89
Fly Illini Fly! said:
How about Western Michigan defends one last Hail Mary, and we don’t have to talk about any of this?

They even called a timeout. They put six guys in the box, so it basically meant 5 on 5 in the end zone.
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So what you're saying is that we can blame an overreaction to UAB putting one rusher on our Hail Mary ;)
 
#514      
Dkayak
To @ChiefGritty ’s point, football has never been measured with this sort of precision. Does anyone see the irony in measuring distance with chains and spotting balls by visual memory while squinting at video to decide whether to overturn a fractional second in timing discrepancy? It’s incongruent. If we really want to go down the precision road, it’s technically possible.

Record time to tenth of a second. Start and stop the clock assisted by audio and visual sensors, but be sure to correct for the distance from the whistle to the sensor, adjusting for the speed of sound. Is there something better than a whistle though? Human error! Can’t have that, so more work is needed. Some sort of AI video bot replacing officials? I’m sure even a crude video bot would have flagged that egregious face mask! Distances aren’t nearly precise enough for this brave new game. We could spot the ball based on video replays or maybe even GPS. Surveying with GPS is now accurate to 1/4”, so why not football? A century ago surveyors literally measured distance with chains, noting the number of chain links on plats.

However, this new game would be a sterile joke. We saw a faked glimpse of it last week, with officials pretending the clocks are operated with enough precision to overturn a call hinging on one second (probably less) at the end of the game. Does anyone really want to go further down this road? It doesn’t enhance the sport.
 
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#515      
JSpence
ChiefGritty said:
And I get that on some level the Zaprudering showing the in-stadium reality to be at worst unclear, arguably supporting the call, and very very clearly showing that the NBC replay was not aligned with the stadium clock makes the case for unprecedented action to overturn the result much weaker.
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ChiefGritty said:
What video we have facing the opposite end zone doesn't seem to support that, but it's impossible to entirely rule that out on the evidence we've got.
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I'd like to know what you're saying here, because you seem to be casting doubt on the facts. Do you think that, as of this morning, we don't know for a certainty that there was time left on multiple clocks visible in the stadium?
 
#516      
sbillini
JSpence said:
I'd like to know what you're saying here, because you seem to be casting doubt on the facts. Do you think that, as of this morning, we don't know for a certainty that there was time left on multiple clocks visible in the stadium?
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He’s sucking you in too friend. I’m telling ya, you won’t get a straight answer! 😜


When I straight asked if he thought the correct call was made but for the wrong reasons, I was told that he wouldn’t be drawn into such a ridiculous question 🤷
 
#517      
STLflyinIllini
Fly Illini Fly! said:
How about Western Michigan defends one last Hail Mary, and we don’t have to talk about any of this?

They even called a timeout. They put six guys in the box, so it basically meant 5 on 5 in the end zone.
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you sound like the Michigan fan at my work. Also said other coaching staffs shouldn't have allowed Harbaugh to cheat and other schools should have given Chris Weber 230k and a car.
 
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#519      
JSpence
STLflyinIllini said:
you sound like the Michigan fan at my work. Also said other coaching staffs shouldn't have allowed Harbaugh to cheat and other schools should have given Chris Weber 230k and a car.
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Even if it feels gross, it's not victim-blaming to wish out loud that they would have done that. We all wish they would have.

Now we've got people so wrapped around the axle that they're happy to see the NCAA come out with the guidance (or rules? or protocol? or suggestions?) that facts are secondary to appearances. These people in charge had multiple obvious solutions immediately available to them (ALL-22 including a clock, using the cop-out NFL rule, etc.) and surely could have come up with something even better. Instead, they chose to straight up imply that the clock DOES matter but it doesn't need to be CORRECT.

It's unreal to me that in our desperate bargaining to have an epic loss thrown back on Michigan, we can't - with a whole week to think about it - collectively walk back some egregiously shortsighted rationale. Can we not realize how pi**ed we'd be if our team were denied a goal-to-go down for a win because a clock wasn't quite stopped in time and the B1G just lets it go because of a "should" statement in a memo? For the life of me, I never thought a fanbase so familiar with screw jobs would be tripling down on the virtues of legalizing more screw jobs.
 
#520      
STLflyinIllini
JSpence said:
Even if it feels gross, it's not victim-blaming to wish out loud that they would have done that. We all wish they would have.

Now we've got people so wrapped around the axle that they're happy to see the NCAA come out with the guidance (or rules? or protocol? or suggestions?) that facts are secondary to appearances. These people in charge had multiple obvious solutions immediately available to them (ALL-22 including a clock, using the cop-out NFL rule, etc.) and surely could have come up with something even better. Instead, they chose to straight up imply that the clock DOES matter but it doesn't need to be CORRECT.

It's unreal to me that in our desperate bargaining to have an epic loss thrown back on Michigan, we can't - with a whole week to think about it - collectively walk back some egregiously shortsighted rationale. Can we not realize how pi**ed we'd be if our team were denied a goal-to-go down for a win because a clock wasn't quite stopped in time and the B1G just lets it go because of a "should" statement in a memo? For the life of me, I never thought a fanbase so familiar with screw jobs would be tripling down on the virtues of legalizing more screw jobs.
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it was a bad call. there was not undisputable evidence to reverse. The fact that it was scUM obviously makes it more disgusting, but the call should not have been made. Just so happens that the blue blood gets the call and little brother gets screwed, as is always the case with Michigan.
Had it been the other way around, WMU would not have received another play, and everyone knows it.
 
#521      
ChiefGritty
JSpence said:
Do you think that, as of this morning, we don't know for a certainty that there was time left on multiple clocks visible in the stadium?
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Dunno about multiple. The end zone behind the play looks pretty darned clear that it hadn't hit zeroes yet.
 
#522      
Dkayak
JSpence said:
For the life of me, I never thought a fanbase so familiar with screw jobs would be tripling down on the virtues of legalizing more screw jobs.
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It’s because screwups should be randomly distributed IF they’re just poor officiating, but these “errors” clearly favor the favored teams. Many of us simply want to see screwups affect all teams comparably, so this was one small opportunity for Michigan to feel what their opponents so frequently experience.

Tell us when you last saw Michigan adversely affected by a bad call in any significant way?
 
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