Michigan 78, Illinois 68 POSTGAME

IntenselyOrange · Dec 30, 2015

RichBradIllini said:
I disagree on this. What's not to like about next year? IF Thorne is back and everyone is healthy I'd say we're a top 5-6 B1G team. Granted that's not setting the world on fire but we'll have talent coming back.

I'm less confident. Thorne is fine, but that is not a guy that takes us from bottom of the conference to the top third. I think the team can be competitive next year, 8-seed to bubble caliber.

But there's a lot of recruiting left to be done, so that could change I suppose.

Jreed322 · Dec 30, 2015

HerbertFish said:
I still can't believe people make excuses for Groce. Just when you think he's getting indefensible, someone comes up with something. Now we have these mysterious college basketball experts praising what a good coach he is. These experts exist, I swear!

There's a difference between "excuses" and "reasons". The constant pendulum swinging of some posters here is funny throughout the course of the year.

We played a great first half. We missed Leron and Mike big time in this game obviously. We kept Michigan right at their season average for points and forced them to turn it over quite a bit above their season average.

The funny thing is that most everyone thought we'd lose but then we do and everyone acts like it was a game we should have won. I don't think we played nearly as poorly as some are portraying but I know that sentiment isn't very popular right now so I'll back into the shadows until it calms down a bit.

illinitiger · Dec 30, 2015

HeartofaChampion said:
If JG had only played AA more, we'd have won for sure. JG should be fired for not using AA more, or something.

So I guess we can say it's always "something"...

Luckily, I think the AA hate has generally subsided on the board. A hard working walk on who can help is pretty valuable when your down 4 players.

blmillini · Dec 30, 2015

IntenselyOrange said:
I'm less confident. Thorne is fine, but that is not a guy that takes us from bottom of the conference to the top third. I think the team can be competitive next year, 8-seed to bubble caliber.

But there's a lot of recruiting left to be done, so that could change I suppose.

If we have Thorne back next year, Finke has a year of experience and Nichols can provide any defensive help; we would then at least have the ability to help as other teams continue to torch us off the dribble. If you can add defensive stops by Abrams, then maybe you have some ability to compete. Unfortunately, I think Thorne is the biggest key to that happening and he is only around for a year. Groce has to be able to identify and recruit players that can defend the ball, have an impact inside and rebound. To say he has done a poor job of that is an understatement, regardless of injuries.

With Groce I honestly feel like the old cliche Cubs fan... "wait 'til next year!"

HeartofaChampion · Dec 30, 2015

illinitiger said:
So I guess we can say it's always "something"...

Luckily, I think the AA hate has generally subsided on the board. A hard working walk on who can help is pretty valuable when your down 4 players.

Um, no one has "hated" AA. Thinking he shouldn't plày 20 mpg isn't hate. If you think it's hate, then JG must "hate" AA since he's barely played AA for the last several games.

IntenselyOrange · Dec 30, 2015

blmillini said:
If we have Thorne back next year, Finke has a year of experience and Nichols can provide any defensive help; we would then at least have the ability to help as other teams continue to torch us off the dribble. If you can add defensive stops by Abrams, then maybe you have some ability to compete. Unfortunately, I think Thorne is the biggest key to that happening and he is only around for a year. Groce has to be able to identify and recruit players that can defend the ball, have an impact inside and rebound. To say he has done a poor job of that is an understatement, regardless of injuries.

With Groce I honestly feel like the old cliche Cubs fan... "wait 'til next year!"

But, what does this take beyond desire and some quickness? We've got a few athletes who should be able to defend. I view this as a development problem rather than a recruitment problem.

Jreed322 · Dec 30, 2015

UIGrad03 said:
It won't be a popular opinion but I see a lot more issues due to personnel limitations and inexperience than I do with strategy.

It's not popular because that's not something you can pound the table and say "fire the coach" over.

Jreed322 · Dec 30, 2015

Rad said:
No doubt we are missing key parts. Do you see improvement or understranding of what we are trying to do on offense?

Yes.

IntenselyOrange · Dec 30, 2015

Jreed322 said:
It's not popular because that's not something you can pound the table and say "fire the coach" over.

Or perhaps because we start 3 juniors, two of which have been starting since half-way through their freshman year? Or because roster construction is in fact his job? I know, Abrams (should have graduated last year) and Thorne (a 5th year transfer who could conveniently be described as new to the program) and Paul (predictable exit, and extremely over-hyped talent). But go ahead with your argument.

Jreed322 · Dec 30, 2015

MrOizo said:
I hate to take it further into the negative, but I can't give the benefit of the doubt to the coaches after I remember how last year's team ended the year. For me, the quit of that team - with quite a bit of talent - told me something was very wrong. And it was beyond the players. What troubled me was that I waited and looked for an explanation. Was there a cancer? Who? How did that group suddenly lose all the moxy they had? No answer came, so I put in on the coaches.

I could be wrong, but it still exists... And it is very ugly. Add there is some off judgment it seems based on the weird things like Darius, thinking Starks would get the NCAA waiver, Cosby... There seems to be no identity or pride. There's a lot of icky feeling around the Illini beyond the injuries. I don't know enough to have any answers, but from high above it ain't pretty.

Blaming Groce for misjudging the Starks waiver not coming through? Now I've heard it all.

MrOizo · Dec 30, 2015

IntenselyOrange said:
But, what does this take beyond desire and some quickness? We've got a few athletes who should be able to defend. I view this as a development problem rather than a recruitment problem.

I agree with this - what we saw end of last year and see this year on defense is disturbing. It tells me the guys aren't being taught, aren't listening, or don't believe in what's being taught. Is there any way that the lack of progress on defense by Tate, Hill, Nunn, and Morgan isn't a horrible embarrassment to this staff? What else can it be called?

Jreed322 · Dec 30, 2015

illinisc said:
Apples and Oranges. MSU is still a quality team and lost to another talented team on the road. We just plain stink. If you objectively look at this team and staff we might be right there with Rutgers as the worst program in the Big10. YES, NU and PSU have a much better outlook than we do right now.

Give me a break. No, NU and PSU (REALLY?!) do not have better outlooks than us. What in the world have either of those programs shown to possibly make that even an argument, let alone true? Yeah NU went 12-1 against possibly the worst non-con schedule around and still have 0 NCAA tourneys. PSU? Why, because they got one top 100 recruit? Illinois has four of those.

Yes MSU is still a much better team than is even without Valentine but the point is that one significant injury can severely alter a teams ability to play up their potential. Take away three starters including your two best post players and it's gonna alter some stuff.

Charles Wellington · Dec 30, 2015

Stop making excuses for Groce. This is year 4. He's 24-31 in the Big Ten. He's missed the tourney the last 2 seasons and if the way this year is shaping up, he's going to miss 3 straight.

I know injuries have taken their toll. I know some of the transfers haven't worked out. But you know what, if you're not performing on the court you have to be held accountable.

If we do not make the tournament this season, he should be gone. Which sucks because he's a young, charismatic coach who seems like he loves the O&B.

jrichisamazing · Dec 30, 2015

blmillini said:
If we have Thorne back next year, Finke has a year of experience and Nichols can provide any defensive help; we would then at least have the ability to help as other teams continue to torch us off the dribble. If you can add defensive stops by Abrams, then maybe you have some ability to compete. Unfortunately, I think Thorne is the biggest key to that happening and he is only around for a year. Groce has to be able to identify and recruit players that can defend the ball, have an impact inside and rebound. To say he has done a poor job of that is an understatement, regardless of injuries.

With Groce I honestly feel like the old cliche Cubs fan... "wait 'til next year!"

No matter who we have next year, the biggest key will be the freshmen getting better. That's the reason we are so bad on defense right now. That and not having a rim protector. Thorne and Black can make a big difference inside and the freshmen can stop being terrible defensively. And there is not much Groce can do right now, most freshmen are poor defenders.

illinitiger · Dec 30, 2015

HeartofaChampion said:
Um, no one has "hated" AA. Thinking he shouldn't plày 20 mpg isn't hate. If you think it's hate, then JG must "hate" AA since he's barely played AA for the last several games.

Ill avoid this argument and recall my "hate" term just for you HeartofaChampion.

Regardless, I remember earlier in the season significant outcries whenever he was put in a game. Glad it has subsided.

Jreed322 · Dec 30, 2015

IntenselyOrange said:
But, what does this take beyond desire and some quickness? We've got a few athletes who should be able to defend. I view this as a development problem rather than a recruitment problem.

Isn't this the first year we've had major defensive problems? Might be a bit much to call it a development problem.

jrichisamazing · Dec 30, 2015

IntenselyOrange said:
But, what does this take beyond desire and some quickness? We've got a few athletes who should be able to defend. I view this as a development problem rather than a recruitment problem.

We've been a good defensive team the past 3 seasons. Now we have multiple injuries and we're playing 4 freshmen, and Groce can't coach defense? GMAB.

blmillini · Dec 30, 2015

IntenselyOrange said:
But, what does this take beyond desire and some quickness? We've got a few athletes who should be able to defend. I view this as a development problem rather than a recruitment problem.

I agree. Desire, Quickness and I would throw in a little basketball intelligence as well. We do have good enough athletes that we should be able to defend. Unfortunately, we've never really seen it with Groce's teams other than his first year and I would argue that much of that was carry over from Weber. I think Groce allows them way too much freedom and that translates into weak defensive effort and poor shot selection, a combination that is killing us.

It appears to me that the emphasis is on getting back on defense in transition to the detriment of offensive rebounding, rather than effort in the half court.

Jreed322 · Dec 30, 2015

IntenselyOrange said:
Or perhaps because we start 3 juniors, two of which have been starting since half-way through their freshman year? Or because roster construction is in fact his job? I know, Abrams (should have graduated last year) and Thorne (a 5th year transfer who could conveniently be described as new to the program) and Paul (predictable exit, and extremely over-hyped talent). But go ahead with your argument.

Your points about Abrams and Thorne are completely irrelevant. Who cares when a player was supposed to be gone? Like its Groces fault that he's still here or that he should apologize for it? I can damn well guarantee you that Groce wishes Abrams has graduated because that means he would have been healthy enough to help one of the previous two teams and probably get them to the NCAAs.

And that "new to the program guy"? Yeah, he was turning out to be a huge help and a big time player for us so turns out he's kind of important. Any reason you left out black? Or nunn missing the start of the year?

blmillini · Dec 30, 2015

jrichisamazing said:
No matter who we have next year, the biggest key will be the freshmen getting better. That's the reason we are so bad on defense right now. That and not having a rim protector. Thorne and Black can make a big difference inside and the freshmen can stop being terrible defensively. And there is not much Groce can do right now, most freshmen are poor defenders.

Hill is not a good defender, Mav is a terrible defender, Black is not a good defender, and Nunn is decent but still needs help as he over-commits often. Nnanna didn't get nearly as much credit as he should have for making up for all those deficiencies. Granted, it helped that Rice was pretty good and Abrams in previous years as well. I don't expect Freshmen to be very good at the beginning of the year but you often see them get much better by the end of their first year. That has not typically been true with Groce and his staff. With our recent history I don't expect our current Freshmen to start playing adequate defense until our Juniors are gone, if ever.

illinitiger · Dec 30, 2015

frozenrope9190 said:
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Frozen...you should have said "for the next 12 hours" (maybe more)

ITIllini · Dec 30, 2015

For me, it doesn't come down to wins and losses. The question I ask myself is "do I think JG is a good coach". Does he make the players better? Do the players play with intensity? Are the players fundamentally sound? Does he have a solid game plan? Does he call timeouts at the right times? Does he recruit the right players?

Good coaches can have bad luck and bad seasons. Bad coaches may have good seasons due to good luck or good players, especially if the coach is a good recruiter. Should we be happy if we Illinois barely makes the tournament next year but the team had the talent to compete at a higher level?

I know others have a different opinion, but I don't feel that JG is a good coach. I was hoping that he could recruit at a high enough level to succeed, but in my opinion, I see no signs that he will be able to recruit high level talent in the future. I believe that it will be harder and harder for him to convince recruits with every loss.

blmillini · Dec 30, 2015

ITIllini said:
For me, it doesn't come down to wins and losses. The question I ask myself is "do I think JG is a good coach". Does he make the players better? Do the players play with intensity? Are the players fundamentally sound? Does he have a solid game plan? Does he call timeouts at the right times? Does he recruit the right players?

Good coaches can have bad luck and bad seasons. Bad coaches may have good seasons due to good luck or good players, especially if the coach is a good recruiter. Should we be happy if we Illinois barely makes the tournament next year but the team had the talent to compete at a higher level?

I know others have a different opinion, but I don't feel that JG is a good coach. I was hoping that he could recruit at a high enough level to succeed, but in my opinion, I see no signs that he will be able to recruit high level talent in the future. I believe that it will be harder and harder for him to convince recruits with every loss.

I have to agree with this. It was my concern about him coming in as he had too many mixed results at Ohio. However, he is such a likable guy and you get the impression that he should be able to recruit. If he had gotten early recruiting wins, then he might have been able to mask the coaching deficiencies. Unfortunately, the lack of early recruiting success and inability to recruit a balanced roster has really put him in a difficult spot. I truly hope he can turn things around but there have simply been too many signs for too long to think it is truly going to happen and then carry forward consistently. With the new AD it is probably the perfect time to make the change but you better do it right.

Obelix · Dec 30, 2015

lstewart53x3 said:
Tom Izzo, who's a great coach, coaching an undefeated team just got blown out by Iowa because they're missing one player.

Let's stop with the Izzo references. They are outright silly. It is not about one game; heck, it is not even about one season. Izzo has two S16, an E8, and a FF in his last 4 years alone. He has done a great job recruiting, by leaps and bounds above UI. He has the program on a strong foundation. He was undefeated, having the No. 1 team in the nation. Lost away to Iowa... wow, BIG DEAL!

We missed the tournament the last 2 years, and still have not recruited a single top-100 HS PG or C the last 4 years. If it was just about this game, or even this season with injuries, but everything else was on a strong foundation (recruiting, prior performances), it would be a totally different story.

We played this game without 5 of our top 8 players. What were you expecting to happen?

We are not missing 5 of our top 8 players. We are missing 3 of our top 8 players, specifically Abrams, Thorne, and Black. But it is not this game or the outlook of this season that is the problem. I think it is the future outlook of this program. Even if Abrams, Thorne, and Black all return, and we do make it to the NCAA tournament next year, we are still without a top-100 PG or C with Abrams, Thorne, Nunn, and Hill all graduating next season. Unless you get a top ranked recruiting class with multiple difference makers at key positions (PG and C) who will be able to immediately contribute, you are still looking at positional gaps moving forward.

I still think Grove survives 2016. But he better hit a recruiting home run with some top ranked difference makers in 2017. He won't be able to wait 2-3 years to reap the benefits of 2017 recruiting. It is not just about making the tournament next year (as we did 3 years ago). It is about building a program that makes the tournament every year.

jrichisamazing · Dec 30, 2015

blmillini said:
Hill is not a good defender, Mav is a terrible defender, Black is not a good defender, and Nunn is decent but still needs help as he over-commits often. Nnanna didn't get nearly as much credit as he should have for making up for all those deficiencies. Granted, it helped that Rice was pretty good and Abrams in previous years as well. I don't expect Freshmen to be very good at the beginning of the year but you often see them get much better by the end of their first year. That has not typically been true with Groce and his staff. With our recent history I don't expect our current Freshmen to start playing adequate defense until our Juniors are gone, if ever.

Nunn and Hill definitely got better near the end of their freshmen year. We haven't seen a healthy Black so I'm not sure about his defending, but we know he's a good rebounder. Mav is what he is, I don't think that's Groce's fault. But I think this freshman class is the first class where you can truly evaluate Groce on defensive development. AJ and DJW are long and athletic. JCL is quick and has a nose for the ball. Finke won't ever be a great rim protector, but he has the IQ and work ethic to be competent defensively. It's only December, let's see how the rest of the season plays out.