Michigan State 79, Illinois 54 POSTGAME

#76      

Berg88

B
Berg88
Jreed322 said:
There's zero chance any of the guys you mentioned leave early unless Thorne comes back this year and thus graduates.
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I don't know that the chance is zero. If I'm Malcolm Hill, I don't know what the big motivation is for me to stay. Illinois has not been the place he probably expected when he signed up. There's a decent chance this group of juniors will be the first class at Illinois in over 35 years to not make an NCAA tournament. :eek: If he turns out to have any other good options next year, I don't think we can assume 100% he will be back.
 
#77      

TCTORNADO

TCTORNADO
TCTORNADO
Berg88 said:
I don't know that the chance is zero. If I'm Malcolm Hill, I don't know what the big motivation is for me to stay. Illinois has not been the place he probably expected when he signed up. There's a decent chance this group of juniors will be the first class at Illinois in over 35 years to not make an NCAA tournament. :eek: If he turns out to have any other good options next year, I don't think we can assume 100% he will be back.
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Where the heck is Malcolm Hill going??? OTOH, it sure looked like he didn't want to be there last night.
 
#79      

Berg88

B
Berg88
TCTORNADO said:
Where the heck is Malcolm Hill going??? OTOH, it sure looked like he didn't want to be there last night.
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Hopefully nowhere? As the big ten season continues on, I think any thoughts he or others may have had of him being drafted this year will dwindle to nothing, but again, I can't really fathom the level of frustration he must feel with the team.
 
#80      

ILL in IA

ILL in IA
Iowa City
ILL in IA
pjohnso5 said:
The sad part is, there is a school up north to compare U of I to when it comes to sports. That is Northwestern.

They are light years ahead of us in both football and bball. Despite the fact that they have far less money pumped into their programs, do not draw 1/2 the amount of home fans for either sport, is a school that is more academically challenging in most areas, and have harder entrance requirements for athletes.

However, they have very good coaches in both football and basketball. Both teams have far surpassed the Illini in recent years and have far brighter near-term futures. It is a sad state that our 2 programs are in. I'm tired of being the butt end of jokes from other Big Ten fans. Until U of I places an importance on their major sports programs, this crap will continue for a while. It's pathetic.
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Pump the breaks on the NW Wildcats being light years ahead of Illinois in Basketball. This is a bad year, but NW is still a program to never make the tourney. Never.
 
#81      

Chase3

C
Chase3
Berg88 said:
Hopefully nowhere? As the big ten season continues on, I think any thoughts he or others may have had of him being drafted this year will dwindle to nothing, but again, I can't really fathom the level of frustration he must feel with the team.
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In all honesty, I don't think Malcolm is athletic enough to make the NBA. He is strong and his fadeaway jumper is a thing of beauty. He also plays tough. But if you watch him play closely, he has no hops and his dribble drive ability is limited to one or two moves. He needs the Joseph Bertrand athleticism matched with his shooting skills and he would be a NBA caliber player. I love Hill as an Illini but I don't see him as a player who can make a living in the NBA. Overseas for sure. NBA maybe here and there for a few teams.
 
#82      

Jreed322

J
Jreed322
Berg88 said:
Hopefully nowhere? As the big ten season continues on, I think any thoughts he or others may have had of him being drafted this year will dwindle to nothing, but again, I can't really fathom the level of frustration he must feel with the team.
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The problem with that is that he's part of the frustration with his play as well.
 
#83      

ssanti13

ssanti13
ssanti13
Cymoin said:
Can someone tell me how many players on the current roster (injured and healthy) were actively pursued and offered schollys by programs which are regular guests in the only post-season tourney that matters?

I don't recall our beating out major programs for JCL, KN or MH. I recall Kentucky being interested in MT but we are now seeing how underwhelming their team is this year.

It seems that today's really good high school players could care less who they play for...they just want to go where there is a path to the NBA...that road does not run through Champaign.
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Let's see. Thad Matta really wanted Nunn. So we beat out Ohio State as well as Marquette and Memphis(these 2 not perennial tourny teams but both will be this year). JCL was very, very close to choosing Notre Dame. He was also heavily coveted by Indiana, Michigan and North Carolina State. MH went under the radar, but had his heart set on Illinois for some time. Kentucky wanted Thorne. Maverick Morgan was offered by Iowa State, Vanderbilt, West Virginia and Xavier, among other solid programs. Leron was offered by Indiana, Baylor, Uconn, Billy Donovan loved Leron and offered, John calipari took a long look at Leron, Ohio State and Tennessee offered as well. Larry Brown offered DJW a scholarship at SMU, and was getting looked at by Izzo as well. AJ was offered by Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue and Creighton.

It's not a talent issue.
 
#84      

ssanti13

ssanti13
ssanti13
Chase3 said:
In all honesty, I don't think Malcolm is athletic enough to make the NBA. He is strong and his fadeaway jumper is a thing of beauty. He also plays tough. But if you watch him play closely, he has no hops and his dribble drive ability is limited to one or two moves. He needs the Joseph Bertrand athleticism matched with his shooting skills and he would be a NBA caliber player. I love Hill as an Illini but I don't see him as a player who can make a living in the NBA. Overseas for sure. NBA maybe here and there for a few teams.
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He's not an athletic freak/the one and done type. He will play 4 years of college, but if I'm an NBA scout I absolutely have my eye on him. The kid just turned 20, so he really should be a sophomore. The amount of improvement he's shown is tremendous and he hasn't reached his ceiling, and a lot of that is physical development. He will get much stronger and more athletic(at least athletic enough) as he grows up. Malcolm has only gotten better and better since he's worn the orange and blue. Last season he had like 3 games where he broke 20 points and this year he's at like 7 or 8...There's a reason why draft express and other scouting services put him at a top 40 draft pick for next season. I'm not saying he's going to go then, but show me Malcolm in 2 years when he should be a senior and I would kick up my feet and watch him tear up college basketball. Everyone rips on him for not being a vocal leader but that's not who he is. Hell, I'd say he'd be a better fit as a secondary option on a team w/ talent around him. If your an NBA coach and can't utilize Malcolm hill as a scoring threat off the bench in a couple years, get out of the league.
 
#85      

othawhitemeat

O
othawhitemeat
ssanti13 said:
Let's see. Thad Matta really wanted Nunn. So we beat out Ohio State as well as Marquette and Memphis(these 2 not perennial tourny teams but both will be this year). JCL was very, very close to choosing Notre Dame. He was also heavily coveted by Indiana, Michigan and North Carolina State. MH went under the radar, but had his heart set on Illinois for some time. Kentucky wanted Thorne. Maverick Morgan was offered by Iowa State, Vanderbilt, West Virginia and Xavier, among other solid programs. Leron was offered by Indiana, Baylor, Uconn, Billy Donovan loved Leron and offered, John calipari took a long look at Leron, Ohio State and Tennessee offered as well. Larry Brown offered DJW a scholarship at SMU, and was getting looked at by Izzo as well. AJ was offered by Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue and Creighton.

It's not a talent issue.
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It's mainly not a talent issue. We have issues for many reasons and a big part of it obviously where I am guessing you are alluding to is coaching.

However, most coaches with our crappy frontcourt defense without Thorne/Black and lack of point guard that can score could get this to the tourney. However, Groce is to be blamed for some of that too since he did not retain Austin and tried to sign Darius Paul.

However, you are correct - I don't think any other coach last night loses by 25 without their star player and looking pedestrian without him - even with our depleted injuries and Nunn out. I mean the most talented and skilled player last night was on our team in Hill. While Freshman, JCL and Finke are up there with the other best players on the court. Michigan State's sum of parts are obviously tougher and better defensively. However, if you give them Finke, Hill, and JCL, I think you would see Hill and JCL starting. Finke wouldn't start because they have Davis (the 2nd most talented player on the court and an experienced Costello) but he would get several minutes. However, I think those 3 would start on many teams in the Big10 outside of the top 3 (Hill/Nunn would pretty much start for all teams and be one of the top 2).

I love Groce as a person, but it is obvious he cannot coach and can't recruit a good sum of parts. While we have an incoming point guard that looks like he could be a find, I don't see where we are heading as a program but down.
 
#86      

Jreed322

J
Jreed322
othawhitemeat said:
It's mainly not a talent issue. We have issues for many reasons and a big part of it obviously where I am guessing you are alluding to is coaching.

However, most coaches with our crappy frontcourt defense without Thorne/Black and lack of point guard that can score could get this to the tourney. However, Groce is to be blamed for some of that too since he did not retain Austin and tried to sign Darius Paul.

However, you are correct - I don't think any other coach last night loses by 25 without their star player and looking pedestrian without him - even with our depleted injuries and Nunn out. I mean the most talented and skilled player last night was on our team in Hill. While Freshman, JCL and Finke are up there with the other best players on the court. Michigan State's sum of parts are obviously tougher and better defensively. However, if you give them Finke, Hill, and JCL, I think you would see Hill and JCL starting. Finke wouldn't start because they have Davis (the 2nd most talented player on the court and an experienced Costello) but he would get several minutes. However, I think those 3 would start on many teams in the Big10 outside of the top 3 (Hill/Nunn would pretty much start for all teams and be one of the top 2).

I love Groce as a person, but it is obvious he cannot coach and can't recruit a good sum of parts. While we have an incoming point guard that looks like he could be a find, I don't see where we are heading as a program but down.
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It's not obvious at all.

Side note: one positive from last night? According to bbstate.com our rpi jumped 11 or 12 spots.
 
#87      

TCTORNADO

TCTORNADO
TCTORNADO
ssanti13 said:
He's not an athletic freak/the one and done type. He will play 4 years of college, but if I'm an NBA scout I absolutely have my eye on him. The kid just turned 20, so he really should be a sophomore. The amount of improvement he's shown is tremendous and he hasn't reached his ceiling, and a lot of that is physical development. He will get much stronger and more athletic(at least athletic enough) as he grows up. Malcolm has only gotten better and better since he's worn the orange and blue. Last season he had like 3 games where he broke 20 points and this year he's at like 7 or 8...There's a reason why draft express and other scouting services put him at a top 40 draft pick for next season. I'm not saying he's going to go then, but show me Malcolm in 2 years when he should be a senior and I would kick up my feet and watch him tear up college basketball. Everyone rips on him for not being a vocal leader but that's not who he is. Hell, I'd say he'd be a better fit as a secondary option on a team w/ talent around him. If your an NBA coach and can't utilize Malcolm hill as a scoring threat off the bench in a couple years, get out of the league.
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Draft Express does not have MH in the top 40 nor for that matter even the top 60. Hill has been exposed the first 3 games of the B1G season. You can't have your all B1G HM performer shooting 11 for 35 and averaging less than 12 ppg for the B1G season.
 
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#88      

491illinois

4
491illinois
OrangeDeeLight said:
Tate is the reverse Corey Bradford. He is almost 1/2 way there...only 50 more games to go to tie!!! :thumb:
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One simply can no longer afford to use a scholarship on a PG or Wing who can not shoot.

This is on Groce.

I do believe if Groce has a decent 2017 recruiting class and gets to the tourney next year things will be headed in the right direction, not as quickly as one might like, but....
 
#89      

ssanti13

ssanti13
ssanti13
TCTORNADO said:
Draft Express does not have MH in the top 40 nor for that matter even the top 60. Hill has been exposed the first 3 games of the B1G season. You can't have your all B1G HM performer shooting 11 for 35 and averaging less than 12 ppg for the B1G season.
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He's had a slow start to the BIG but his numbers were eye popping in the preseason. Still a lot of season left. And my mistake, but in other mock draft sites malcolm's name appears in the top 60. I forget which site this was but a writer had him as high as #41 for 2016. I'm not saying he deservedly should be a 2nd round pick this year but my point is he has NBA potential and he's getting looks. Right now draftexpress has him as the #22 junior in D1, but age wise malcolm should be a sophomore. All I'm saying is he shouldn't be written off as an NBA prospect.

It says something about your potential prospects if you're the youngest player invited to the PAN-American games tryout.


http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Malcolm-Hill-77961/

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Malcolm-Hill-77961/stats/
 
#90      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
491illinois said:
MSU is obviously a massively quicker team on the offensive end, but is thier defense that good?
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#10 in defensive efficiency per Pomeroy.

ssanti13 said:
Let's see. Thad Matta really wanted Nunn. So we beat out Ohio State as well as Marquette and Memphis(these 2 not perennial tourny teams but both will be this year).
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Nunn also committed to Texas A&M at one point and I believe had an UCLA offer as well.
 
#91      

Calvin

C
Calvin
89illinigrad said:
Injuries have certainly derailed this season.
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I don't post much, given how my view seems to be incompatible with the optimism that those remaining express, but getting destroyed by MSU says to me we'll be lucky to get more than 1 quality (top-50) win this season, and certainly not away from home.

Kenpom currently ranks us 125, Sagarin's predictor is 121, although Sagarin has us trending up with his "recent" category. That ranking seems about right to me, which says we're not going to make the NIT this year, and we've got a ways to go to be an NCAA team next year. I do expect we'll be in the dance next year, but I was hoping we'd be talking about being a regular team in the top-25 next year, not just a team that could make the dance, or would be on the bubble if anything goes wrong again.

I'm just not feeling that the glass is half full.
 
#92      

Jreed322

J
Jreed322
Calvin said:
I don't post much, given how my view seems to be incompatible with the optimism that those remaining express, but getting destroyed by MSU says to me we'll be lucky to get more than 1 quality (top-50) win this season, and certainly not away from home.

Kenpom currently ranks us 125, Sagarin's predictor is 121, although Sagarin has us trending up with his "recent" category. That ranking seems about right to me, which says we're not going to make the NIT this year, and we've got a ways to go to be an NCAA team next year. I do expect we'll be in the dance next year, but I was hoping we'd be talking about being a regular team in the top-25 next year, not just a team that could make the dance, or would be on the bubble if anything goes wrong again.

I'm just not feeling that the glass is half full.
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I can't imagine how that game last night without four starters leads anyone to make sweeping conclusions about the rest of the season. I've said it before, if that was going to be our team the rest of the year or into next year then ok. But that's not even remote true especially when considering experience.
 
#93      

Golfer63

G
Golfer63
ILL in IA said:
Pump the breaks on the NW Wildcats being light years ahead of Illinois in Basketball. This is a bad year, but NW is still a program to never make the tourney. Never.
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+1 on that. Also keep in mind that Collins is pretty much the coach in waiting for Duke. If NW is going to make the dance, they better do it before Coach K retires.
 
#94      

CAHALL15

C
Central Illinois
CAHALL15
I'm not pleased with the outcome either, but when you start the game with 4/5 staters out, your 5th gets two fouls in a matter of minutes, you play a top 5 team on the road whose only loss came with their best player out against a good Iowa team, this is the result. I challenge any team to play a top 5-10 team with 4/5 of their starters out including their leading scorer and make it a close game.

The missed games this year shouldn't be understated. Is Groce as good of a coach as say (sticking to our conference) Izzo, Ryan, or Matta? Of course not. He's said plenty of times that he's learning and discovering things as a coach.

However, this isn't the same kind of final season that Weber had where we laid a goose egg against Nebraska with an NBA lottery pick on our team. Again, for me, next year should be a tournament year and if not, it would be fair to question whether he should stay or not.
 
#95      

rtbritt

rtbritt
rtbritt
Golfer63 said:
+1 on that. Also keep in mind that Collins is pretty much the coach in waiting for Duke. If NW is going to make the dance, they better do it before Coach K retires.
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Well I'd guess that if he doesn't make the dance, he likely won't be Duke's next coach.
 
#96      

TCTORNADO

TCTORNADO
TCTORNADO
Golfer63 said:
+1 on that. Also keep in mind that Collins is pretty much the coach in waiting for Duke. If NW is going to make the dance, they better do it before Coach K retires.
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Nope, Dawkins, Amaker, and even Capel will all get consideration. Coach K will have a lot to say on his replacement.
 
#97      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Jreed322 said:
I can't imagine how that game last night without four starters leads anyone to make sweeping conclusions about the rest of the season.
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And yet a large number of posters ARE drawing conclusions based on what they imagine would happen with certain players in the lineup.
 
#98      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
So Izzo took pity on us.

EAST LANSING - Tom Izzo made what he called a “Mateen Cleaves decision” to keep his star player out for one more game on Thursday night. Denzel Valentine, cleared medically to play, sat out for the fourth game in a row since his Dec. 21 arthroscopic knee surgery. He could have gone and late Wednesday Izzo thought he might, but Izzo made a decision like he did in 1999-2000 to sit out Cleaves as he was returning from a broken bone in his foot. Izzo held him out against Wright State and the Spartans lost early in their eventual national championship season.

That was not the case against Illinois, as MSU rolled 79-54 in a game that Izzo was not going to let Valentine talk his way into.

“I love Denzel, but if Cleaves can’t talk me into playing him … and I was afraid of Cleaves,” Izzo said. “I look at Denzel and I look at his future, I look at our future and I look at one game. It was a fairly easy decision.”

Valentine cleared to play
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