Michigan State 87, Illinois 74 POSTGAME

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#101      
illiniCA
oldracquetguy said:
Maybe true, but those aren't the only options. There are numerous variations to defenses.
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And last night we played a scheme that led to 25 turnovers. MSU was going to have a high shooting percentage regardless and we were never going to rebound against them even if the shooting percentage was lower.

This was one of the better scheme to play against them
 
#102      
Calvin
RichardH said:
I saw a team that was playing at an incredible disadvantage by the system and scheme their coach has decided to play. This team is so far away athletically and personnel wise to be playing Underwood's system. We won't have the players for another 3 years (if were lucky). Even OSU had high caliber players and it didn't work. I honestly can't remember a game where an opponent had so many dunks and layups. We forced 25 turnovers!!!! and were absolutely dominated.

People act as if we have a Top 5 class coming in next year where we will magically be able to play this system. We have a one man class for next year! Not to mention were losing Alstork who is one of the only guys that can defend in this system. We are begging big men to transfer and no one is interested.

Time to get a clue.
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No one's happy, but I don't agree AT ALL with this. We were thin at big when Underwood took over, and we lost Tilmon from the coaching change. There's no team in the BIG that could compete in the front court with a stretch-4 like Finke, who's not terribly athletic, and can't put it on the floor, and Black, who's talent lies around the basket, but who is greatly undersized as a center. The other two are last-ditch adds that have a good fit for his system, even if they're true freshman bigs.

When we address the talent/fit gap at center, we will be significantly better. When Underwood fixes the culture (which I and many others believe is happening), we will at least be competitive. Do both, as well as continue to bring in good guards (Frazier already is a baller, and Ayo is on the way) and we should move up at a minimum to a tourney team.
 
#103      
mattcoldagelli
oldracquetguy said:
Lol...I thought that was obvious. Applying pressure to the point where you either steal the ball or give up a layup or a dunk rarely works against talented teams with skilled athletes. There are a lot of ways to play this game. I just don't think we have the athletes to play this style and I think it puts so many players in a position to fail.
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Ok, so you’d rather us slow it down and use a pack line approach to match up in the half court with MSU? That sounds great if your goal is to set a new speed record for Leron fouling out. And with the exception of Alstork on Winston or TumTum, can you find me a position where we wouldn’t be badly overmatched in terms of height, athleticism or both? Not ideal! If your primary concern is putting players in a position to fail, this is likely your least attractive option.

Or maybe you’d like to use a zone? Don’t know if you noticed, but they’re an ok shooting team! They hit 16 3s against Maryland. (Also relevant for the pack line - maybe you didn’t watch the Groce years but I’ve had my fill of giving up consistently open 3s) And don’t act all exasperated like this is Bruce Weber refusing to play zone out of misguided principle or whatever the hell his rationale was. We’ve used it before against opponents where it makes a lot more sense (Nebraska, for instance).

No, against a team where you are facing a deficit of skills, athleticism and size (spoiler - not a great hand to be playing), your best bet is to try to make the game frenetic, gain a possession advantage, and hope the other guys get into foul trouble or have a bad shooting night. As a cherry on top, MSU is also pretty deep (everyone except Schilling played double-digit minutes, and he played 9), so we lost another potential lever to pull - exhaust them - that may have worked against a team that plays fewer guys.
 
#105      
americanoutlaw11
Physically, MSU literally looks like an NBA team. Their size and athleticism made our boys look like high schoolers. Add the fact that they are a highly skilled team as well, and I can't believe that this is the game that has people calling for Underwood's head. Our boys played their ***** off and competed to the best of their ability. This is the first loss this year that didn't leave a bad taste in my mouth. Proud of the way the team brought it last night.
 
#106      
PlayAZ
illiniCA said:
The defensive scheme was great last night. The biggest issue is that we are not able to score of the turnovers.
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and the fact that a far superior talented team counter acted the turnovers with nearly 70% shooting most of the game.:chief:
 
#107      
Illiniaaron
EthanM said:
Agreed. I think This team coached by Groce is probably at the same record or worse than we are. Certainly the losses wouldn’t have been so close.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Um, it's pretty hard to be worse than 0-8. I find the position of fans acting so giddy after another loss and touting the great coaching job Underwood is doing as somewhat ridiculous. There were plenty of people posting on here that Illinois would make the tourney this year before the season started. I didn't think they would but I doubt that many thought the results would be this bad so far. Equally ridiculous are those acting like the program is doomed going forward. It's just impossible to know. Underwood has done a decent job at SFU and OSU. This roster just has too many guards.
 
#108      
hin10
RichardH said:
Look, there are no good answers against MSU. I get that. My frustration and concerns are boiling over from the last 6 games.

At this point I just don't understand the downside of switching it up.
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He literally explained, point by point, all of the downsides of switching it up.
 
#109      
mattcoldagelli
RichardH said:
At this point I just don't understand the downside of switching it up.
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The downside of switching it up against Michigan State? I think I just described it/them.

The downside of switching it up, in the abstract, regardless of who we're playing? I don't really think coaches think that way most of the time - they're looking at the opponents. The reason that it got so much attention when Underwood did it last year was precisely because it is a rare thing.

It'll be interesting to see what we do against Indiana, who is not a good shooting team.
 
#110      
Innocent Primate
I suggest we give the new coach at least 3 years without an NCAA Tournament bid before beginning to compare him unfavorably to the prior coach.
 
#111      
IlliniDent
Mark smith really needs to work on his quickness and lateral movement all offseason long. Still looks way too stiff out there and it’s preventing him from getting by guys and staying in front of them. Also, he needs to keep working on his shot. If he can start hitting from a much higher percentage outside then it will help to give him that extra bit of space he needs to beat his man off the dribble. Still have very high hopes for him and I really like what he brings to the table but he has a lot more to work on than going forward than most of us hoped. Thankfully, all freshmen become sophomores.
 
#112      
doowink
LBZ said:
Yeah, you pack our defense in a zone or try to keep up with man to man & MSU shoots over the top all night long of a shorter less athletic team. The margin of loss would have been at least double.
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If I remember correctly, in both the Wisconsin and Mich State games we went to a zone and both teams drained a 3 on the first possession....changing to a zone occasionally to try and throw a team off is fine in my book...but to go zone more than the pressure man to man defense would be a mistake
 
#113      
TheGMan
I am by no means a great basketball mind, but from my impression of watching the game, the reason we lost last night was not because of the 5 or so alley-oops by MSU. The reason we lost is because MSU shot 70% from the field. And the reason they shot 70% from the field is because of a combo of 3 things...

1) Luck. Even great teams against awful defenses rarely shoot 70% from the field;

2) MSU is a highly talented and well coached team; and

3) They were able to greatly out-rebound us, leading to very easy baskets. This is related to point #2.

Like I said, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to defensive schemes and what not. I'm just a casual fan. However, I feel like if you have a defense that is able to cause 25 turnovers, 9 out of 10 times, you are gonna win that game. Even if the other team gets several super easy layups because of it.
 
#114      
doowink
I noticed last night the announcers made statements about this Illinois team that I found interesting......Illinois has played with heart.....it has played with tough mindedness.....this Illinois team isn't going to give up, they'll fight you to the end......I think we would have to go back to 2005 to recall these kind of comments about an Illinois team. Once this team gains more experience and we add more talent, I think we'll begin to see the results we all want...until then ....we are going to struggle.....but the type of play is something we haven't seen from an Illinois team in quite some time
 
#115      
ChiefIllini
This game should prove all the Kipper doubters wrong. Shows he is more than capable of putting it all together. Up to Kipper to have more games like this, than the past 5.


If he can work on body control and shot accuracy 3 ft from the rim, he should be a starter next year.
 
#116      
mattcoldagelli
RichardH said:
I just think he is being stubborn here. The only way I see the rest of this season and next season not being a total disaster is by changing our approach on defense.

With the success we had against Nebraska I would expect Underwood to go with a similar approach against Indiana and Rutgers.
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But....we've already shown we're willing to use a variety of defenses?

You want stubborn, I point you in the direction of our last two coaches. Bruce felt it was blasphemy against something (Purdue's Play Hard Clock, maybe? I dunno) to play anything other than man-to-man. John Groce, who was alarmingly willing to let opponents dictate what we did in many situations (remember how many times he admitted he preemptively altered our substitution patterns?), still didn't get away from the pack line approach even though we couldn't stop a dribble drive to save our lives and gave up a genuinely shocking amount of wide open looks from 3.

I understand being frustrated. I certainly am. I just don't understand this false notion that Underwood is stubbornly kamikaze-ing his defensive approach when 1) he moved away from it wholesale last year and 2) we've mixed things up this year.
 
#117      
TooHot4Tots
Good fight last night, unlike vs Wisky. Brando and Raff gave some nice props to Coach Underwood. Like to see what he can do with better talent and actual bigs. Be great to beat IU.
 
#118      
skyIdub
Yes, I'll have the bananas hot takes with sausage please.
 
#119      
JFGsCoffeeMug
ChiefIllini said:
This game should prove all the Kipper doubters wrong. Shows he is more than capable of putting it all together. Up to Kipper to have more games like this, than the past 5.
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As far as I've noticed, there are very few people who think Kipper doesn't have the tools to be highly productive for us. I think the issue many of the "Kipper doubters" have identified is his lack of consistent effort and killer instinct. A single game won't put those concerns to rest.
 
#121      
bombayIllini
Except for the MSU and PU games, we just might take the rest - IF we play like yesterday and improve a wee bit on O.
 
#122      
KenR
I am so exhausted from hearing about nothing but culture! Culture does not win games and championships. Recruiting and good coaching does win games and championships. That Jeff Dunham dummy "Walter" scowl on Underwood's face it getting very old, as well. 0 for the conference..........
 
#123      
icengineer
KenR said:
I am so exhausted from hearing about nothing but culture! Culture does not win games and championships. Recruiting and good coaching does win games and championships. That Jeff Dunham dummy "Walter" scowl on Underwood's face it getting very old, as well. 0 for the conference..........
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You think MSU, Duke, NC, UK, KU, all don't have culture? You have to start with something! We don't have the bodies right now, but he culture can be instilled regardless of that.

Culture encompasses a playing style and a mindset/attitude. We are working on both of those, I see it, why can't you?
 
#124      
skyIdub
We live in a society where we get breakfast at McD's in 30 seconds.
We get cookie cutter homes built in three weeks.
We ride right up on the bumper of the car in front of us at 80mph, even though there's two miles of solid traffic ahead of us.
We physically run people over on the day after Thanksgiving to save $200 on a XBox.
We are so intent on saying what we have to say, that we don't listen to a word that's being said to us.

Yet somehow we expect all of these things to work out exactly the way we want and have a high level of satisfaction.

Instant gratification. SMH

Keep Fighting Illini.:illinois::chief:
 
#125      
Ransom Stoddard
RichardH said:
MSU had an effective FG% of 72.7% last night. Its hard to imagine a defense doing any worse than what we did last night. Pack line defenses are also supposed to help with defensive rebounding which god knows we could use some help with. But yes you are correct, we would be vulnerable to the 3 pointer.
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We forced 25 turnovers, that is phenomenal defense. Shooting percentage on its own isn't a solid indicator of defense because some nights shots will go down that wouldn't on any other night.

Pack line may have helped with D-rebounding until you look at the matchups. We're way outsized, which has been pointed out ad nauseum. Banging inside with them isn't going to work and would probably have fouled Black and Ebo out pretty early.

This was, by far, one of the best defensive efforts we've seen from this squad for 40 minutes and people are on here griping that we played the #6 team in the country very close
 
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