Michigan State 87, Illinois 74 POSTGAME

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#151      
TheGMan
TCTORNADO said:
Not sure people realize the talent on that MSU team. It just might be the best that Izzo has assembled and gosh knows he has had some great ones. I LOL at the people on here a few years ago talking about his recruiting demise. See below 247 rankings!!

Jackson, Jr--#8
Bridges--#12
Langford--#19
Ward---#42
McQuaid--#71
Nairn-#103
Tillman--#111

And we are trying to combat that with #515 EBo.:)
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Wow. I knew it was really good, but never knew how good.
 
#152      
PlayAZ
TCTORNADO said:
Not sure people realize the talent on that MSU team. It just might be the best that Izzo has assembled and gosh knows he has had some great ones. I LOL at the people on here a few years ago talking about his recruiting demise. See below 247 rankings!!

Jackson, Jr--#8
Bridges--#12
Langford--#19
Ward---#42
McQuaid--#71
Nairn-#103
Tillman--#111

And we are trying to combat that with #515 EBo.:)
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Sad part is that most of that list may actually be underrated, Jackson and Bridges may be for sure, Langford, spot on, Ward and McQuaid are probably a little too high.

The fact still remains that their average is far superior to ours. A lot of this has to do with positions also...I will definitely take our guards anyday!:chief:
 
#153      
BRucks
Love the Illini said:
Kind of tired of hearing we are one or two bigs short of competiting next year. Where are the two bigs for next year coming from? Right now we have one elite recruit for 18. Hate to say it but any bigs we get in spring signing are probably going to be projects who won’t help next year. We will be lucky to get one let alone two fifth year transfers who can help. If we compete next year we will have to do it with a lack of size
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See last spring.
 
#154      
illini62707
RichardH, your not crazy. Some posters think if you disagree with what Underwood is doing your anti-Illinois/Underwood, all that nonsense. I'm for Underwood to be successful, but don't like the defense he's using.
I've read all the you must be crazy to say that posts. They are freshmen, new system, don't have his players, would've got beat by 30 if played straight up D.
It's not just MSU and the athletes they have that have picked apart this defense. Less athletic teams like Iowa and Wisconsin have exploited this defense. And others.
OK. ST, wasn't very good at it either. And it's not just dunks and lay-ups you give up. Opens up a lot of 3's also. MSU, didn't have to do that they were to busy dunkin'.
As I've said before there is a good reason teams around the country don't use this defense. It's not very good. Can it cause turnovers and points of to's, yeah. But has too many holes.
 
#155      
Illiniaaron
EthanM said:
You're right that it's hard to be worse than 0-8, but it's not hard to be worse than 10-3 in non-con. Consider that they easily could have lost against TN Martin, Austin Peay, Mizzou, and Grand Canyon. I do not think that this team coached by Groce wins all four of those. Look at this team play this year, and compare it to last year's. There's a big difference in the quality of play that I'm seeing. There's no hero ball. Last year the offense was pass around the arc and then give it to Malcolm with 5 seconds left so he could play hero ball. I'm not seeing that nearly as much this year. I'm not happy about the losses, and neither is anyone else, but at least I'm seeing an identity and a culture change in this team. I firmly believe that Underwood is a better coach than Groce.
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Illinois' non-conference schedule was very weak this season. And believe me I'm not wishing we had Groce back. At some point you need to win a few.
 
#157      
NashVegas

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#158      
alexander58
illini62707 said:
RichardH, your not crazy. Some posters think if you disagree with what Underwood is doing your anti-Illinois/Underwood, all that nonsense. I'm for Underwood to be successful, but don't like the defense he's using.
I've read all the you must be crazy to say that posts. They are freshmen, new system, don't have his players, would've got beat by 30 if played straight up D.
It's not just MSU and the athletes they have that have picked apart this defense. Less athletic teams like Iowa and Wisconsin have exploited this defense. And others.
OK. ST, wasn't very good at it either. And it's not just dunks and lay-ups you give up. Opens up a lot of 3's also. MSU, didn't have to do that they were to busy dunkin'.
As I've said before there is a good reason teams around the country don't use this defense. It's not very good. Can it cause turnovers and points of to's, yeah. But has too many holes.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what Underwood’s ultimate goal is defensively. It’s been said they want to wear down the other team in the second half. They overplay everything, which creates 3 on 2 when they get beat by their man because they don’t keep their man in front of them. There’s no one to protect the rim and the rotations are slow. Maybe he wants this system in place for when he can (hopes) get the long quick athletes needed to make it work. I love the effort, but wish the results would match the effort.
 
#159      
icengineer
TCTORNADO said:
Not sure people realize the talent on that MSU team. It just might be the best that Izzo has assembled and gosh knows he has had some great ones. I LOL at the people on here a few years ago talking about his recruiting demise. See below 247 rankings!!

Jackson, Jr--#8
Bridges--#12
Langford--#19
Ward---#42
McQuaid--#71
Nairn-#103
Tillman--#111

And we are trying to combat that with #515 EBo.:)
Click to expand...

HEY!!! Don't dis on Ebo! Dude is playing fantastic for #515. We've gotten more out of him this year than ANYBODY thought we would. I love the kid! :thumb:
 
#160      
icengineer
alexander58 said:
I’m not sure what Underwood’s ultimate goal is defensively. It’s been said they want to wear down the other team in the second half. They overplay everything, which creates 3 on 2 when they get beat by their man because they don’t keep their man in front of them. There’s no one to protect the rim and the rotations are slow. Maybe he wants this system in place for when he can (hopes) get the long quick athletes needed to make it work. I love the effort, but wish the results would match the effort.
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I think that is exactly what he is doing. Why wait to put in the system until you have the players? That's idiotic. Then it will take a couple years to get everyone in sync. Do it now! If the players on the team already know what's going on when the new guys arrive, they can help teach and the new guys will learn it that much faster.
 
#161      
Deleted member 11241
icengineer said:
I think that is exactly what he is doing. Why wait to put in the system until you have the players? That's idiotic. Then it will take a couple years to get everyone in sync. Do it now! If the players on the team already know what's going on when the new guys arrive, they can help teach and the new guys will learn it that much faster.
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+1. It blows my mind that some people don't understand this
 
#162      
alexander58
IlliniGman said:
+1. It blows my mind that some people don't understand this
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I’m sure everyone understands. After the previous regime where his system never had much success because he couldn’t recruit to fit it, here we are again. Can he recruit well enough to make it work?
 
#163      
GortTheRobot
alexander58 said:
I’m sure everyone understands. After the previous regime where his system never had much success because he couldn’t recruit to fit it, here we are again. Can he recruit well enough to make it work?
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I don't know if you could realistically say that Groce had a system. The word was that he had a lot of acumen, and many good ideas, but that doesn't always coalesce into an actual system...it's just a bunch of plays and plans that don't mesh. I think BU is different, I think his ideas are extensions of a basic identity that needs to be the bedrock before the more esoteric aspects can click.
 
#164      
blmillini
illini62707 said:
RichardH, your not crazy. Some posters think if you disagree with what Underwood is doing your anti-Illinois/Underwood, all that nonsense. I'm for Underwood to be successful, but don't like the defense he's using.
I've read all the you must be crazy to say that posts. They are freshmen, new system, don't have his players, would've got beat by 30 if played straight up D.
It's not just MSU and the athletes they have that have picked apart this defense. Less athletic teams like Iowa and Wisconsin have exploited this defense. And others.
OK. ST, wasn't very good at it either. And it's not just dunks and lay-ups you give up. Opens up a lot of 3's also. MSU, didn't have to do that they were to busy dunkin'.
As I've said before there is a good reason teams around the country don't use this defense. It's not very good. Can it cause turnovers and points of to's, yeah. But has too many holes.
Click to expand...

We have giving up easy layups and dunks for years now. So...
 
#165      
mattcoldagelli
alexander58 said:
I’m sure everyone understands. After the previous regime where his system never had much success because he couldn’t recruit to fit it, here we are again. Can he recruit well enough to make it work?
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Groce’s “system” was “hope we shoot lights out from 3 while I wait for an elite playmaking guard to show up and paper over how clueless we are on offense”
 
#166      
UIGrad03
I’ve questioned the overplaying defense at times this season on another forum, but I don’t really see how we can play teams straight up when we are at a huge talent and size disadvantage.

My biggest issue is that we are supposed to be wearing down the other team, but it usually looks like we are the team that’s worn out down the stretch. Which is why we lose so many right at the end or in OT. It’s hard watching the guys play hyper-intense defense for 28 seconds only to give up a dunk or alley oop on a simple jab into the corner/baseline cut. Damonte and MS just get abused on that play time and time again.

At the same time, it generates a ton of turnovers, yet we have a maddening inability to score on many of those turnovers. And the speed we employ on the defensive end and the energy it requires seems to hurt us on the offensive end, leading to bad passes, hurried shots, and tired legs. We do have guys that can shoot the ball well, but just haven’t. I can’t help but believe there isn’t some correlation there.

On the flip side, our forays into an energy and foul preserving zone haven’t gone that well, either. I have to imagine Underwood has his hands full teaching the pressure defense to all these younger players while also being able to instill a truly effective zone, especially with this roster makeup.

Overall, it’s good to actually have an identity, and we have that now. But it’s important to remember that this is a rebuild and wholesale culture/style of play makeover, and it’s going to take some time. I also think that recruiting into this system has been and is going to be tougher than any of us would like to admit. I fully anticipate seeing Huggins and Martin type classes that may not wow anyone on paper, but cater specifically to the system and culture. And I believe that five years from now, we will all be pretty pleased with the program.
 
#167      
PlayAZ
Berg88 said:
Ok, but that's not what anyone was saying in his first couple years. No one thought he had no offense when we won at Gonzaga. Everyone thought he was a genius and thought it'd be even better when he got his point guard. If three years from now we don't have a rim protector, people on here will say, " BU's "system" was hope to get steals that lead to run out lay ups while I wait for an elite rim protector to cover up how we constantly get beat on back door cuts."

Point is that nearly every coach looks like they have a great system when they have great talent. The great coaches can still run their system even when they don't have great talent.
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Maybe so on the last line, but.....who was the LAST GREAT coach who had to coach without GREAT talent? :chief:
 
#168      
whovous
UIGrad03 said:
I’ve questioned the overplaying defense at times this season on another forum, but I don’t really see how we can play teams straight up when we are at a huge talent and size disadvantage.

My biggest issue is that we are supposed to be wearing down the other team, but it usually looks like we are the team that’s worn out down the stretch. Which is why we lose so many right at the end or in OT. It’s hard watching the guys play hyper-intense defense for 28 seconds only to give up a dunk or alley oop on a simple jab into the corner/baseline cut. Damonte and MS just get abused on that play time and time again.

At the same time, it generates a ton of turnovers, yet we have a maddening inability to score on many of those turnovers. And the speed we employ on the defensive end and the energy it requires seems to hurt us on the offensive end, leading to bad passes, hurried shots, and tired legs. We do have guys that can shoot the ball well, but just haven’t. I can’t help but believe there isn’t some correlation there.

On the flip side, our forays into an energy and foul preserving zone haven’t gone that well, either. I have to imagine Underwood has his hands full teaching the pressure defense to all these younger players while also being able to instill a truly effective zone, especially with this roster makeup.

Overall, it’s good to actually have an identity, and we have that now. But it’s important to remember that this is a rebuild and wholesale culture/style of play makeover, and it’s going to take some time. I also think that recruiting into this system has been and is going to be tougher than any of us would like to admit. I fully anticipate seeing Huggins and Martin type classes that may not wow anyone on paper, but cater specifically to the system and culture. And I believe that five years from now, we will all be pretty pleased with the program.
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This is the part that bothers me. Pressing as hard as we do is bound to give up some very high percentage dunks and layups, but everytime we get a steal, that should count as a 0% shot for the opponent. But all too often we steal the ball and pass it out of bounds, or right back to the other team.

Our defense would look a whole lot better if our offense knew what to do when the defense gave them the ball.
 
#169      
GortTheRobot
Berg88 said:
Ok, but that's not what anyone was saying in his first couple years. No one thought he had no offense when we won at Gonzaga. Everyone thought he was a genius and thought it'd be even better when he got his point guard. If three years from now we don't have a rim protector, people on here will say, " BU's "system" was hope to get steals that lead to run out lay ups while I wait for an elite rim protector to cover up how we constantly get beat on back door cuts."

Point is that nearly every coach looks like they have a great system when they have great talent. The great coaches can still run their system even when they don't have great talent.
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Not that I disagree completely, but I would argue that BU is running his system and overcoming a deficit in talent. There are only two games, Wisky and MSU, that we have been "out of," and we made it a game against an incredibly deep and talented MSU team.

Groce benefited from some good players, one of which is now in the NBA, and his enthusiasm meant a lot to players who seemed to feel a bit stifled by Weber's system.
 
#170      
SescIllini
PlayAZ said:
Maybe so on the last line, but.....who was the LAST GREAT coach who had to coach without GREAT talent? :chief:
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Lon Kruger did a great job while at Illinois with average talent. Lon always won the games Illinois was supposed to and was like 50/50 on the ones they weren't. He won a Big Ten Championship with what I would consider not overwhelming talent, probably something similar to what we have now. Just more experienced.
 
#171      
mattcoldagelli
Berg88 said:
Ok, but that's not what anyone was saying in his first couple years. No one thought he had no offense when we won at Gonzaga. Everyone thought he was a genius and thought it'd be even better when he got his point guard. If three years from now we don't have a rim protector, people on here will say, " BU's "system" was hope to get steals that lead to run out lay ups while I wait for an elite rim protector to cover up how we constantly get beat on back door cuts."
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Ehh, I mean it’s not like people were complaining that fall, but many did point out the fact that we were leading the country in 3PT shooting percentage for a good chunk of the non-con. That’ll make pretty much anything look good.
 
#172      
ChiefIllini
Berg88 said:
The closest example to home would have to be Bo Ryan. I'm sure there are others.
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Preface: Bo Ryan was a great coach who was fantastic at finding and developing talent mostly thought of as mid major level guys.

But, almost his entire career consisted of having some extremely talented guys on the roster. It's a falsity to say Wisconsin never got those 5/4 * recruits. Jon Leuer, Devin Harris, Brian Butch (I remember him being very widely recruited), Sam Dekker, and im sure im missing more. Theres a list twice as long of the kids he got that were sub 200 guys that become all big ten players, but there were always guys that were highly touted coming out of HS at Wisconsin.

What makes a great coach great is being able to grab both kinds of players. Obviously blue blood programs are different, they can get whatever talent they basically want, but for the Illinois' and Wisonsins of the world, finding players that fit what you wanna do and do it well is absolutely necessary.
 
#173      
Peoria Illini
SescIllini said:
Lon Kruger did a great job while at Illinois with average talent. Lon always won the games Illinois was supposed to and was like 50/50 on the ones they weren't. He won a Big Ten Championship with what I would consider not overwhelming talent, probably something similar to what we have now. Just more experienced.
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Experienced and guys that had solid basketball IQs. Right now we don't have have a lot of good IQs when in a pressure situation. That comes with experience.

Kruger's players were also more gritty and hard nosed. Johnson, Krupalija, Archibald, McClain, etc. We are currently lacking some attitude on this current roster.
 
#174      
Obelix
GortTheRobot said:
Not that I disagree completely, but I would argue that BU is running his system and overcoming a deficit in talent. There are only two games, Wisky and MSU, that we have been "out of," and we made it a game against an incredibly deep and talented MSU team.
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The bolded is simply a myth, for any coach, and is definitely not true right now. We are certainly not overcoming the deficit in talent, and is even debatable that we even play up to our potential right now, especially when we lose at home to pretty bad teams like Iowa. Just because we did not lose by much, is no moral win against teams that we should beat.

Again, the hope that we will consistently simply outsmart, outsystem, and outcoach the Izzo's, the Beilein's and the rest of the B1G coaches with less talent will die pretty soon. Unless we get the talent, it will never consistently happen. And talent is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

On Groce, he definitely overachieved his first season, no doubt about it. But he did not get the talent, and had many gaps in his recruiting. At the end, his era is one big meh NIT team.

Current team is not an NIT team, hope certainly exists that we will become much better in the future, but again, if recruiting does not seriously improve, that hope will just die. Ayo is good, but not nearly enough. We need more, and soon. JMO.
 
#175      
Peoria Illini
Obelix said:
The bolded is simply a myth, for any coach, and is definitely not true right now. We are certainly not overcoming the deficit in talent, and is even debatable that we even play up to our potential right now, especially when we lose at home to pretty bad teams like Iowa. Just because we did not lose by much, is no moral win against teams that we should beat.

Again, the hope that we will consistently simply outsmart, outsystem, and outcoach the Izzo's, the Beilein's and the rest of the B1G coaches with less talent will die pretty soon. Unless we get the talent, it will never consistently happen. And talent is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

On Groce, he definitely overachieved his first season, no doubt about it. But he did not get the talent, and had many gaps in his recruiting. At the end, his era is one big meh NIT team.

Current team is not an NIT team, hope certainly exists that we will become much better in the future, but again, if recruiting does not seriously improve, that hope will just die. Ayo is good, but not nearly enough. We need more, and soon. JMO.
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Yeah, but we're the most dangerous non-NIT team in the country!!!
 
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