Michigan State 87, Illinois 74 POSTGAME

GortTheRobot · Jan 24, 2018

Berg88 said:
I agree that Underwood is trying to run his system with a deficit of talent, but I think we actually have to win games to be considered overcoming the talent deficit. 2-11 against top 100 teams is not doing much in the way of overcoming anything.

I don't completely disagree, but it is subject to perspective: Although we have stacked up the losses, most of them could have been wins, and with the past two coaches, we usually fell behind and then lost big. We have no real presence in the middle, and to keep games close in the BIG without that is, in my opinion, overcoming a deficit, despite the W-L column.

icengineer · Jan 24, 2018

PlayAZ said:
Maybe so on the last line, but.....who was the LAST GREAT coach who had to coach without GREAT talent?

All of you are missing the most obvious answers. Bob Huggins and Frank Martin! Some may argue the 'great' part but I happen to think they are. Huggins for sure, Martin I think, is well on his way, if not there already.

TheGMan · Jan 24, 2018

Obelix said:
Current team is not an NIT team, hope certainly exists that we will become much better in the future, but again, if recruiting does not seriously improve, that hope will just die. Ayo is good, but not nearly enough. We need more, and soon. JMO.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone disagrees that we need more talent. But it's also not time to dismiss this staff as bad coaches/recruiters. Overhauling class imbalance and getting players for a particular system was never going to happen overnight.

BananaShampoo · Jan 24, 2018

PlayAZ said:
Maybe so on the last line, but.....who was the LAST GREAT coach who had to coach without GREAT talent?

All of them, pretty much, actually. Great coaches don't get to the top level usually without first proving themselves at the lower levels of coaching, where they almost invariably have much less talent to work with. Bill Self didn't have a ton of talent at Tulsa, but getting to the tourney and doing well there with those teams got him the Illinois job, which in turn got him the Kansas job. Same can even be said for Weber and Southern Illinois, or Matta at Youngstown State, or Beilein at Canisius and Richmond, or our own Underwood at SFA, or Krzyzewski at Army, or Knight at Army, or Wooden at Indiana State...the list goes on and on...

Those guys didn' get the talent until they proved they could coach and do well with lesser talent at less prestigious schools. That's how it usually works.

mattcoldagelli · Jan 24, 2018

Berg88 said:
If three years from now we don't have a rim protector, people on here will say, " BU's "system" was hope to get steals that lead to run out lay ups while I wait for an elite rim protector to cover up how we constantly get beat on back door cuts."

Also - feel like this needs clearing up - we don't need bigs because we have to prevent lobs. As frustrating as it was watching MSU do that ten times, that's a very low percentage play in college basketball - if we're forcing teams without two lottery picks into that, we're going to be happy with the results more often than not.

We need bigs because we've got bad roster imbalance and get murdered on the glass. We need bigs because we need someone cleaning up after our guards' drives when they miss. We need bigs for depth. Will it be nice to have someone that can pull the occasional Mo Bamba back there? Yes. But that's down the list a bit.

LoveIlliniHoops · Jan 24, 2018

TheGMan said:
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone disagrees that we need more talent. But it's also not time to dismiss this staff as bad coaches/recruiters. Overhauling class imbalance and getting players for a particular system was never going to happen overnight.

Agree. I support Underwood and his staff 100%. There is one lingering problem that we forget. The FBI investigation is not helping with recruiting. The sooner we get this behind us the better. Opposing coaches are using this against us. I’d love to know if Ayo’s recruitment involved an opposing coach mentioning this. I hate to bring this up, in fear of scaring off other recruits and I don’t believe Underwood was involved. This assistant was with OSU prior to Underwood’s arrival.

IlliniDent · Jan 24, 2018

mattcoldagelli said:
Also - feel like this needs clearing up - we don't need bigs because we have to prevent lobs. As frustrating as it was watching MSU do that ten times, that's a very low percentage play in college basketball - if we're forcing teams without two lottery picks into that, we're going to be happy with the results more often than not.

We need bigs because we've got bad roster imbalance and get murdered on the glass. We need bigs because we need someone cleaning up after our guards' drives when they miss. We need bigs for depth. Will it be nice to have someone that can pull the occasional Mo Bamba back there? Yes. But that's down the list a bit.

Exactly.
Also the pay off of 25 turnovers should be much much higher than that of even 10 back door plays.

Illiini · Jan 24, 2018

IlliniDent said:
Exactly.
Also the pay off of 25 turnovers should be much much higher than that of even 10 back door plays.

And I think that's something the team can work on. There's room to improve as the guys are more confident with being able to work the turnovers. A couple of times--well, probably more than that--they look like the puppy who caught the car he was chasing: Now that he's got it, he doesn't know quite what to do with it. In a way, you can't work on that until you learn how to catch the car.

I don't know whether that's "basketball IQ" or "basketball education," but if it's the latter, it's something that can be taught...and, one hopes, learned. Let's see what happens tonight against what everyone is saying is a good defense.

GortTheRobot · Jan 24, 2018

Obelix said:
The bolded is simply a myth, for any coach, and is definitely not true right now. We are certainly not overcoming the deficit in talent, and is even debatable that we even play up to our potential right now, especially when we lose at home to pretty bad teams like Iowa. Just because we did not lose by much, is no moral win against teams that we should beat.

Again, the hope that we will consistently simply outsmart, outsystem, and outcoach the Izzo's, the Beilein's and the rest of the B1G coaches with less talent will die pretty soon. Unless we get the talent, it will never consistently happen. And talent is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

On Groce, he definitely overachieved his first season, no doubt about it. But he did not get the talent, and had many gaps in his recruiting. At the end, his era is one big meh NIT team.

Current team is not an NIT team, hope certainly exists that we will become much better in the future, but again, if recruiting does not seriously improve, that hope will just die. Ayo is good, but not nearly enough. We need more, and soon. JMO.

Let me be more specific: We are operating at a deficit in talent in the front court. I am not saying our players don't have talent, I am saying exactly what you ended with, we need more in areas where we have a deficit. Sorry to not be more specific.

UIGrad03 · Jan 24, 2018

I’m struggling to think of many high majors we’ve played that we weren’t at a distinct experience, talent, athleticism, or size disadvantage (or some combination of those) at multiple positions on the floor.

Michigan State 87, Illinois 74 POSTGAME

Captain 'Paign