NBA/Pro/International Basketball

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#326      
Roundball Sage
6.1 BILLION?! What are they now, a small Nation-State?

That is ridiculous.

I’m not saying that the Celts aren’t actually ‘worth’ that kind of value in today’s greatly-watered-down money terms (and other NBA teams also with astronomical valuations).

This is more about the kind of poor product the NBA is putting out these days and the positioning of the League even more so as being little more than Global ‘Sports Entertainment’ on the level of WWE Sports Entertainment.

Players have never been more skilled as individuals. But the NBA team game is atrocious. The games have become largely unwatchable for ball fans who remember the Bird and Magic and Jordan years (like when they played real defense and offense!).

The Three-ball has a place in the game but not to the oversized level is has become. Scores are now routinely in the 140s so that the value of any particular basket or free-throw becomes devalued instead of gaining importance. That the Association is still over-promoting Lebron James to the degree they are shows that the game is not in a good place and younger stars are not as sellable to the public.

Thank God for Fighting Illini ball and IHSA ball. At least these two forms of the game still look something as they should.
 
#327      
IlliniFaninHoosierLand
Roundball Sage said:
6.1 BILLION?! What are they now, a small Nation-State?

That is ridiculous.

I’m not saying that the Celts aren’t actually ‘worth’ that kind of value in today’s greatly-watered-down money terms (and other NBA teams also with astronomical valuations).

This is more about the kind of poor product the NBA is putting out these days and the positioning of the League even more so as being little more than Global ‘Sports Entertainment’ on the level of WWE Sports Entertainment.

Players have never been more skilled as individuals. But the NBA team game is atrocious. The games have become largely unwatchable for ball fans who remember the Bird and Magic and Jordan years (like when they played real defense and offense!).

The Three-ball has a place in the game but not to the oversized level is has become. Scores are now routinely in the 140s so that the value of any particular basket or free-throw becomes devalued instead of gaining importance. That the Association is still over-promoting Lebron James to the degree they are shows that the game is not in a good place and younger stars are not as sellable to the public.

Thank God for Fighting Illini ball and IHSA ball. At least these two forms of the game still look something as they should.
Click to expand...

The NBA has never been better (also you should take a look at NBA valuations as the Celtics were the 4th highest in the league behind the Warriors, Knicks, and Lakers).

With all due respect, you need to stop living in the past with what the NBA used to be. The reason the league has been as successful as it has been is due to its ability to evolve. While I can understand why people don't like the proficiency of 3 point shooting in today's game, it didn't take much time for the analytics folks to realize that a 3 point basket is worth more than 2. I'm not sure what games you're watching but games are not routinely in the 140s. The highest scoring teams in the league right now average about 122 points per game. The only time it was ever even close to the 140s like what you're describing was back during the 1980s. The best defensive teams in the league only allow about 106 or 107 points per game so there are teams that do actually play "real" defense, contrary to what you may think.

And I watch plenty of stuff that the NBA produces and LeBron is not promoted to the level you seem to think he is. They do promote their younger stars plenty. They are routinely promoting guys like Jokic, SGA, Giannis, and Jayson Tatum.

And I hate to break it to you but this Illini team shot a lot of 3s this year and there are lots of high school teams that like to shoot the 3 as well. There was a player at Williamsville High School this season who made 104 3s and the team as a whole loved to shoot the 3 ball.
 
#328      
mattcoldagelli
Roundball Sage said:
6.1 BILLION?! What are they now, a small Nation-State?

That is ridiculous.

I’m not saying that the Celts aren’t actually ‘worth’ that kind of value in today’s greatly-watered-down money terms (and other NBA teams also with astronomical valuations).

This is more about the kind of poor product the NBA is putting out these days and the positioning of the League even more so as being little more than Global ‘Sports Entertainment’ on the level of WWE Sports Entertainment.

Players have never been more skilled as individuals. But the NBA team game is atrocious. The games have become largely unwatchable for ball fans who remember the Bird and Magic and Jordan years (like when they played real defense and offense!).

The Three-ball has a place in the game but not to the oversized level is has become. Scores are now routinely in the 140s so that the value of any particular basket or free-throw becomes devalued instead of gaining importance. That the Association is still over-promoting Lebron James to the degree they are shows that the game is not in a good place and younger stars are not as sellable to the public.

Thank God for Fighting Illini ball and IHSA ball. At least these two forms of the game still look something as they should.
Click to expand...
This post is just absolute end-to-end nonsense.
 
#329      
OrangeBlue98
IlliniFaninHoosierLand said:
The NBA has never been better (also you should take a look at NBA valuations as the Celtics were the 4th highest in the league behind the Warriors, Knicks, and Lakers).

With all due respect, you need to stop living in the past with what the NBA used to be. The reason the league has been as successful as it has been is due to its ability to evolve. While I can understand why people don't like the proficiency of 3 point shooting in today's game, it didn't take much time for the analytics folks to realize that a 3 point basket is worth more than 2. I'm not sure what games you're watching but games are not routinely in the 140s. The highest scoring teams in the league right now average about 122 points per game. The only time it was ever even close to the 140s like what you're describing was back during the 1980s. The best defensive teams in the league only allow about 106 or 107 points per game so there are teams that do actually play "real" defense, contrary to what you may think.

And I watch plenty of stuff that the NBA produces and LeBron is not promoted to the level you seem to think he is. They do promote their younger stars plenty. They are routinely promoting guys like Jokic, SGA, Giannis, and Jayson Tatum.

And I hate to break it to you but this Illini team shot a lot of 3s this year and there are lots of high school teams that like to shoot the 3 as well. There was a player at Williamsville High School this season who made 104 3s and the team as a whole loved to shoot the 3 ball.
Click to expand...
The post to which you referred reminds me a lot of the comments by people who irrationally hate soccer and make comments about the sport like it's still 1993. If anything, the period of "back-@$$" iso ball and overly aggressive defense of the 1980s and early 1990s was a lot tougher to watch than today's game.
 
#330      
blackdog
OrangeBlue98 said:
The post to which you referred reminds me a lot of the comments by people who irrationally hate soccer and make comments about the sport like it's still 1993. If anything, the period of "back-@$$" iso ball and overly aggressive defense of the 1980s and early 1990s was a lot tougher to watch than today's game.
Click to expand...

You mean you didn't enjoy watching 85-88 mid range shooting slugfests?
 
#331      
IlliniFaninHoosierLand
OrangeBlue98 said:
The post to which you referred reminds me a lot of the comments by people who irrationally hate soccer and make comments about the sport like it's still 1993. If anything, the period of "back-@$$" iso ball and overly aggressive defense of the 1980s and early 1990s was a lot tougher to watch than today's game.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Also the latter part of your post reminds me of the early Simpsons episode where they go see a soccer match for the first time and the difference in announcing between Kent Brockman and the Latin American announcer in the next booth.
 
#332      
OrangeBlue98
blackdog said:
You mean you didn't enjoy watching 85-88 mid range shooting slugfests?
Click to expand...
I'll just say that some of those early 1990s Knicks-Heat games were not exactly appointment viewing.
 
#333      
Grandpa
OrangeBlue98 said:
The post to which you referred reminds me a lot of the comments by people who irrationally hate soccer and make comments about the sport like it's still 1993. If anything, the period of "back-@$$" iso ball and overly aggressive defense of the 1980s and early 1990s was a lot tougher to watch than today's game.
Click to expand...
Dude, there is nothing irrational about hating soccer. I'm too old to waste my time.
 
#334      
Roundball Sage
Grandpa said:
Dude, there is nothing irrational about hating soccer. I'm too old to waste my time.
Click to expand...

I used to feel that way. But not any more. Soccer is more effective than any relaxing or sleeping pill. It lulls the mind into a kind of hynotic state which calms the body. Since there are usually only about 2 goals a game... that means that in the 90-plus minutes of a match there is about 2.2 percent of the time that you get a bit aroused.

Actually, a guy like Messi is quite amazing. His ability to see the field reminds me of how Bobby Orr used to command the hockey rink. They see the game at another level. I respect that.
 
#337      
One Man Fast Break
IlliniFaninHoosierLand said:
The NBA has never been better (also you should take a look at NBA valuations as the Celtics were the 4th highest in the league behind the Warriors, Knicks, and Lakers).

With all due respect, you need to stop living in the past with what the NBA used to be. The reason the league has been as successful as it has been is due to its ability to evolve. While I can understand why people don't like the proficiency of 3 point shooting in today's game, it didn't take much time for the analytics folks to realize that a 3 point basket is worth more than 2. I'm not sure what games you're watching but games are not routinely in the 140s. The highest scoring teams in the league right now average about 122 points per game. The only time it was ever even close to the 140s like what you're describing was back during the 1980s. The best defensive teams in the league only allow about 106 or 107 points per game so there are teams that do actually play "real" defense, contrary to what you may think.

And I watch plenty of stuff that the NBA produces and LeBron is not promoted to the level you seem to think he is. They do promote their younger stars plenty. They are routinely promoting guys like Jokic, SGA, Giannis, and Jayson Tatum.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but there are thinkpieces out there about the NBA's decline in viewership, lack of popularity/cultural impact and how even the people that cover it for a living complain about it all the time. This is the least popular NBA I've seen in a long time. I think you're completely out there if you think "the NBA has never been better".
 
#338      
AZILL
Crazy. How long does this last? I'm curious, any of you financially inclined loyalty fans, does this sale in todays $$$ really greatly exceed the value of the $ paid for teams 10, 20, 50 years ago??? I mean I see frequent references to the fact that $1 in 1980 is equal to X$ in 2020, and so forth. Make it make sense for a Joe Dirt kind of fellow, lol.
 
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#339      
mattcoldagelli
One Man Fast Break said:
I'm sorry but there are thinkpieces out there about the NBA's decline in viewership, lack of popularity/cultural impact and how even the people that cover it for a living complain about it all the time. This is the least popular NBA I've seen in a long time. I think you're completely out there if you think "the NBA has never been better".
Click to expand...
Let's not conflate "popularity" and "quality" - they can be related, but they are not the same.

The NBA is such a playoff-heavy product that it has struggled for a long time to figure out how to draw people in over the course of an 82-game season (see: the moderately successful in-season tournament and the play-in). It's also in a bit of a superstar-transitory period, with late-career LeBron/Steph/Durant in the process of passing the torch to a new generation of Wemby/SGA/Ant/Jokic/Luka (all those guys are in the West - also not ideal). That said, the Ratings Panic of 2024-25 turned out to be a nothingburger:

With just under a month in the regular season to go, the NBA’s television ratings are basically flat compared to last year’s, averaging 1.85 million viewers per game. However, their top national television property, the NBA on ABC, actually experienced a significant increase over last season.

The Paris Olympics were not, strictly speaking, the NBA, but they were full of its players, and the gold medal game was the most watched Olympic basketball game since the Clinton administration. Basketball is a wildly popular global sport, and the NBA is the top of the mountain for it.

On the quality argument.....I really have a hard time believing the people making them watch that many games. If you are watching NBA games and think the actual basketball itself is not good, I would like to hear specific examples of what you mean by that.
 
#340      
One Man Fast Break
mattcoldagelli said:
Let's not conflate "popularity" and "quality" - they can be related, but they are not the same.

The NBA is such a playoff-heavy product that it has struggled for a long time to figure out how to draw people in over the course of an 82-game season (see: the moderately successful in-season tournament and the play-in). It's also in a bit of a superstar-transitory period, with late-career LeBron/Steph/Durant in the process of passing the torch to a new generation of Wemby/SGA/Ant/Jokic/Luka (all those guys are in the West - also not ideal). That said, the Ratings Panic of 2024-25 turned out to be a nothingburger:

With just under a month in the regular season to go, the NBA’s television ratings are basically flat compared to last year’s, averaging 1.85 million viewers per game. However, their top national television property, the NBA on ABC, actually experienced a significant increase over last season.

The Paris Olympics were not, strictly speaking, the NBA, but they were full of its players, and the gold medal game was the most watched Olympic basketball game since the Clinton administration. Basketball is a wildly popular global sport, and the NBA is the top of the mountain for it.

On the quality argument.....I really have a hard time believing the people making them watch that many games. If you are watching NBA games and think the actual basketball itself is not good, I would like to hear specific examples of what you mean by that.
Click to expand...
Players resting, too many teams in the postseason, hard to be interested in the regular season, shameless cash grab event, entitled superstars, a style of place reduced to teams trading three point attempts.

NBA was at a very high point around 8-10 years ago but it’s struggling to maintain its relevance right now.
 
#341      
the juiceman cometh
mattcoldagelli said:
On the quality argument.....I really have a hard time believing the people making them watch that many games. If you are watching NBA games and think the actual basketball itself is not good, I would like to hear specific examples of what you mean by that.
Click to expand...
Feels like you're just baiting the "dEfEnCe iS oPtIoNaL!" crowd with this one.
 
#342      
mattcoldagelli
One Man Fast Break said:
Players resting, too many teams in the postseason, hard to be interested in the regular season, shameless cash grab event, entitled superstars, a style of place reduced to teams trading three point attempts.

NBA was at a very high point around 8-10 years ago but it’s struggling to maintain its relevance right now.
Click to expand...
There's some credence to some of these items (players resting is, on the whole, smart, but tough for the regular season product). Tanking was/is a problem (wish the Bulls could do it correctly, though!).

"They're just shooting 3s" is just the reboot of "But nobody plays defense". Sure, there are some teams, like Boston, that are firing away. There are plenty of other teams that don't play that way (Nuggets, Lakers, Grizzlies, Knicks, to name a few).

Unless you've got something to back up "the NBA is struggling to maintain its relevance" it sounds like that's a stand-in for you, personally, not enjoying it as much anymore (which is fine! life is short, do things you like). Otherwise, I partially refuted it with the TV numbers above, but attendance is also really good (the league set an average attendance record last year and is nearing the same pace this year). Dallas was nearly plunged into civic unrest because of the Luka trade. The Cavs setting the world on fire in their post-Bron iteration is extremely fun. The basketball is very good and people care about it.
 
#343      
One Man Fast Break
mattcoldagelli said:
There's some credence to some of these items (players resting is, on the whole, smart, but tough for the regular season product). Tanking was/is a problem (wish the Bulls could do it correctly, though!).

"They're just shooting 3s" is just the reboot of "But nobody plays defense". Sure, there are some teams, like Boston, that are firing away. There are plenty of other teams that don't play that way (Nuggets, Lakers, Grizzlies, Knicks, to name a few).

Unless you've got something to back up "the NBA is struggling to maintain its relevance" it sounds like that's a stand-in for you, personally, not enjoying it as much anymore (which is fine! life is short, do things you like). Otherwise, I partially refuted it with the TV numbers above, but attendance is also really good (the league set an average attendance record last year and is nearing the same pace this year). Dallas was nearly plunged into civic unrest because of the Luka trade. The Cavs setting the world on fire in their post-Bron iteration is extremely fun. The basketball is very good and people care about it.
Click to expand...
Not sure why it’s all personal attacks. Yes im referring to myself but also the general sports world zeitgeist. I agree the nba is not about to spontaneously combust and will be fine but I think it’s very fair to say to say it’s not considered at a high point right now. If it is for you thats fine but I think the concerns I outlined are echoed by many and not so easily dismissed as old man yelling at cloud.
 
#344      
Illinirog70
mattcoldagelli said:
There's some credence to some of these items (players resting is, on the whole, smart, but tough for the regular season product). Tanking was/is a problem (wish the Bulls could do it correctly, though!).

"They're just shooting 3s" is just the reboot of "But nobody plays defense". Sure, there are some teams, like Boston, that are firing away. There are plenty of other teams that don't play that way (Nuggets, Lakers, Grizzlies, Knicks, to name a few).

Unless you've got something to back up "the NBA is struggling to maintain its relevance" it sounds like that's a stand-in for you, personally, not enjoying it as much anymore (which is fine! life is short, do things you like). Otherwise, I partially refuted it with the TV numbers above, but attendance is also really good (the league set an average attendance record last year and is nearing the same pace this year). Dallas was nearly plunged into civic unrest because of the Luka trade. The Cavs setting the world on fire in their post-Bron iteration is extremely fun. The basketball is very good and people care about it.
Click to expand...
um what's the viewership and attendance like this year? I read that viewership is down 54%-- from an already low base. Sounds like moving into wnba status...
Great athletes, very poor product, cant hold my interest....
 
#345      
mattcoldagelli
One Man Fast Break said:
Not sure why it’s all personal attacks.
Click to expand...
It is hardly a personal attack to suggest that you are transposing your own opinions with the objective state of things. I've also stated my opinions, but realizing they are just that - opinions - have also provided data that attempt to show how many people are displaying interest in NBA basketball.
One Man Fast Break said:
but also the general sports world zeitgeist.
Click to expand...

Like what? What does this entail?

Illinirog70 said:
um what's the viewership and attendance like this year? I read that viewership is down 54%-- from an already low base. Sounds like moving into wnba status...
Great athletes, very poor product, cant hold my interest....
Click to expand...

Both of these things are answered literally on this page of the thread.
 
#346      
the juiceman cometh
Illinirog70 said:
um what's the viewership and attendance like this year? I read that viewership is down 54%-- from an already low base. Sounds like moving into wnba status...
Great athletes, very poor product, cant hold my interest....
Click to expand...
awfulannouncing.com

The NBA ratings crisis was the most overblown story of the year

After months of hysteria about the league's collapse in television ratings, it turns out things for the NBA are... just fine?
awfulannouncing.com awfulannouncing.com

"With just under a month in the regular season to go, the NBA’s television ratings are basically flat compared to last year’s, averaging 1.85 million viewers per game. However, their top national television property, the NBA on ABC, actually experienced a significant increase over last season."
 
#347      
One Man Fast Break
mattcoldagelli said:
It is hardly a personal attack to suggest that you are transposing your own opinions with the objective state of things. I've also stated my opinions, but realizing they are just that - opinions - have also provided data that attempt to show how many people are displaying interest in NBA basketball.


Like what? What does this entail?
Click to expand...
Wait a minute, isn't that what everyone is doing? Who suggested anything different?

As far as zeitgeist - here's an interesting discussion on it. https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/1isjn0y/does_the_nba_have_a_media_problem/; https://awfulannouncing.com/nba/media-negativity-problem.html; https://www.si.com/nba/lebron-james-blunt-shot-nba-media-negative-coverage-of-game
 
#348      
Illinirog70
mattcoldagelli said:
It is hardly a personal attack to suggest that you are transposing your own opinions with the objective state of things. I've also stated my opinions, but realizing they are just that - opinions - have also provided data that attempt to show how many people are displaying interest in NBA basketball.


Like what? What does this entail?



Both of these things are answered literally on this page of the thread.
Click to expand...
your opinions are personal and so are mine. I lived through the Michael Jordan era and saw him play live maybe 25-30 times. Never disappointed. I highly suspect your viewership numbers on an already greatly reduced base.

To each his own....
 
#349      
lstewart53x3
mattcoldagelli said:
Let's not conflate "popularity" and "quality" - they can be related, but they are not the same.

The NBA is such a playoff-heavy product that it has struggled for a long time to figure out how to draw people in over the course of an 82-game season (see: the moderately successful in-season tournament and the play-in). It's also in a bit of a superstar-transitory period, with late-career LeBron/Steph/Durant in the process of passing the torch to a new generation of Wemby/SGA/Ant/Jokic/Luka (all those guys are in the West - also not ideal). That said, the Ratings Panic of 2024-25 turned out to be a nothingburger:

With just under a month in the regular season to go, the NBA’s television ratings are basically flat compared to last year’s, averaging 1.85 million viewers per game. However, their top national television property, the NBA on ABC, actually experienced a significant increase over last season.

The Paris Olympics were not, strictly speaking, the NBA, but they were full of its players, and the gold medal game was the most watched Olympic basketball game since the Clinton administration. Basketball is a wildly popular global sport, and the NBA is the top of the mountain for it.

On the quality argument.....I really have a hard time believing the people making them watch that many games. If you are watching NBA games and think the actual basketball itself is not good, I would like to hear specific examples of what you mean by that.
Click to expand...
This article has some pretty good info on NBA viewership. It was written in 2024, so ratings only go through the 2023 season.

entertainmentstrategyguy.com

Why the NBA Media Rights Deal is a Big Win...If We Ignore the Pending Local Media Disaster - Entertainment Strategy Guy

(Welcome to the Entertainment Strategy Guy, a newsletter on the entertainment industry and business strategy. I write a weekly Streaming Ratings Report and a bi-weekly strategy column, along with occasional deep dives into other topics, like today’s article. Please subscribe.) Today’s article...
entertainmentstrategyguy.com entertainmentstrategyguy.com

A couple of things to highlight:

1. NBA Viewership is pretty clearly down from it's peak in the 90's:

Screenshot 2025-03-21 at 10.57.05 AM.png

In this case, ratings are only down 48% in the last thirty years. They’re down just 20% in the last ten years, but 38% from their 2011 to 2012 peak. They’re down just 25% from the year 2000 too. I’d have made this chart going back in time further, but I couldn’t find the data, and since we’re talking about the recent viewership slide, any data from before the year 2000 doesn’t really impact the discussion.
Click to expand...

Looking at Christmas Day data:

Screenshot 2025-03-21 at 10.59.59 AM.png

Overall, NBA ratings are down, but this is a much noisier dataset. If you cherry-picked the data, you could make the case that ratings are down 68% (2004 to 2023) or mostly flat (2018 and 2019 had higher ratings than 2002 or 2003).

But I would argue that things are worse than they might seem, for two reasons.
  • First, America has gotten larger over this time frame. Just due to population growth alone, these numbers should be going up.
  • Second, as I’ve covered before, the Nielsen ratings now measure out-of-home viewership. If anything, the NBA’s ratings should have seen a bump post-2020, but they didn’t.
Click to expand...

2. While NBA Finals Viewership is down, the NFL Superbowl viewership is up:
Screenshot 2025-03-21 at 11.02.31 AM.png

There are three different stories here. Major League Baseball just shows steady decline (especially if you look at the ratings from the 1990s and 1980s). For the NFL, growth. For the NBA, viewership was down, then it was up, and now it’s back down, like way down.
Click to expand...
I looked up the viewership stats from 2024 and it was slightly less than 2023 (11.31M in 2024 vs 11.64M in 2023, which are both down from 12.40M in 2022)
 
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#350      
the juiceman cometh
lstewart53x3 said:
This article has some pretty good info on NBA viewership. It was written in 2024, so ratings only go through the 2023 season.

entertainmentstrategyguy.com

Why the NBA Media Rights Deal is a Big Win...If We Ignore the Pending Local Media Disaster - Entertainment Strategy Guy

(Welcome to the Entertainment Strategy Guy, a newsletter on the entertainment industry and business strategy. I write a weekly Streaming Ratings Report and a bi-weekly strategy column, along with occasional deep dives into other topics, like today’s article. Please subscribe.) Today’s article...
entertainmentstrategyguy.com entertainmentstrategyguy.com

A couple of things to highlight:

1. NBA Viewership is pretty clearly down from it's peak in the 90's:

View attachment 40700


Looking at Christmas Day data:

View attachment 40701


2. While NBA Finals Viewership is down, the NFL Superbowl viewership is up:
View attachment 40702

I looked up the viewership stats from 2024 and it was slightly less than 2023 (11.31M in 2024 vs 11.64M in 2023, which are both down from 12.40M in 2022)
Click to expand...
I see a bit of an issue with comparing a 7 game series to the Super Bowl, which is a singular event and perhaps the last existing remnant of the Monoculture, and draws in fans that don't even care about the game (primarily as a showcase for big budget entertaining ads and a hyped-up halftime show).

This also misses the point that most pro sports viewership is down since the 90s. MLB is down (as seen on the graph). NASCAR has been in a gradual decline since about 2005. NHL has been struggling. It used to just be that a huge chunk of people would watch whatever sport was on, but now those people's interest is pulled in different ways by all the options that exist now but did not exist in the 90s. TV shows also don't get the kinds of ratings they used to.

What the NBA has that other US pro leagues don't is a rabid fanbase abroad. Which probably is a factor in the NBA being the 2nd largest pro league in the world for revenue generation (behind the NFL). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

The NBA is doing fine. They are selling a product that a lot of people like.
 
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