NCAA red shirt rulings

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Apr 22, 2016

I don't get it sometimes. They gave this kid from Georgetown another year. He broke his hand in Feb, came back and played in the conference tournament. Doesn't seem to meet any of the requirements to get a red shirt, but there it is...

Bradley Hayes

TCTORNADO · Apr 22, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
I don't get it sometimes. They gave this kid from Georgetown another year. He broke his hand in Feb, came back and played in the conference tournament. Doesn't seem to meet any of the requirements to get a red shirt, but there it is...

Bradley Hayes

I think he got it because of his Freshman year when he played in 9 games and only 14 total minutes.

Illinithad · Apr 22, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
I don't get it sometimes. They gave this kid from Georgetown another year. He broke his hand in Feb, came back and played in the conference tournament. Doesn't seem to meet any of the requirements to get a red shirt, but there it is...

Bradley Hayes

I'd still be shocked if we catch a break with Thorne. I hope I'm wrong.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Apr 22, 2016

TCTORNADO said:
I think he got it because of his Freshman year when he played in 9 games and only 14 total minutes.

What does that have to do with anything? Many players play only a few minutes their first season.

Newman · Apr 22, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
I don't get it sometimes. They gave this kid from Georgetown another year. He broke his hand in Feb, came back and played in the conference tournament. Doesn't seem to meet any of the requirements to get a red shirt, but there it is...

Bradley Hayes

The redshirt was applied to his freshman year. This past season's injury had nothing to do with it.. still an odd ruling since there hasn't been anything about him being hurt, but that that his father died that year.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Apr 22, 2016

Newman said:
The redshirt was applied to his freshman year. This past season's injury had nothing to do with it.. still an odd ruling since there hasn't been anything about him being hurt, but that that his father died that year.

Thanks, the only articles I saw implied it was due to his senior season. Still shows they can come up with some out of the box thinking at times.

TCTORNADO · Apr 22, 2016

Newman said:
The redshirt was applied to his freshman year. This past season's injury had nothing to do with it.. still an odd ruling since there hasn't been anything about him being hurt, but that that his father died that year.

He did break his foot before he entered Georgetown as a freshman. Maybe it was not fully healed, thus limiting his minutes to a total of 14.

Newman · Apr 22, 2016

TCTORNADO said:
He did break his foot before he entered Georgetown as a freshman. Maybe it was not fully healed, thus limiting his minutes to a total of 14.

Still doesn't make too much sense when you look at the game log from his freshman season. He played minutes from the very beginning of the season all the way up to Feb 22nd. Definitely gives me hope that Thorne can get his approved as well. It seems like the NCAA is starting to be more lenient on players this year.

TCTORNADO · Apr 23, 2016

Newman said:
Still doesn't make too much sense when you look at the game log from his freshman season. He played minutes from the very beginning of the season all the way up to Feb 22nd. Definitely gives me hope that Thorne can get his approved as well. It seems like the NCAA is starting to be more lenient on players this year.

Just a guess, but in Hayes case he played less than 30% of the games his Freshman year and that the 14 minutes total was considered minimal and that his "injury" occurred in the first 4 years of his NCAA eligibility. In both Thorne's and TA's cases their injuries occurred in their 5th years (a number that is not addressed in the by law.) BTW,Thorne would qualify for the 30% part as we played 34 games and he appeared in only 8.

Newman · Apr 23, 2016

TCTORNADO said:
Just a guess, but in Hayes case he played less than 30% of the games his Freshman year and that the 14 minutes total was considered minimal and that his "injury" occurred in the first 4 years of his NCAA eligibility. In both Thorne's and TA's cases their injuries occurred in their 5th years (a number that is not addressed in the by law.) BTW,Thorne would qualify for the 30% part as we played 34 games and he appeared in only 8.

Seems like a player returning for a game or two after an injury isn't that big of a factor as long as they stay under the 30%. If that ends up being the case, Thorne's chances may be just as good as Abrams. Either way, this ruling at least shows that they're willing to be flexible, in a good way, in their rule interpretation.

Obelix · Apr 23, 2016

Newman said:
If that ends up being the case, Thorne's chances may be just as good as Abrams.

Abrams is a slam dunk, he will be back. A lot less chances for Thorne.

Second and Chalmers · Apr 23, 2016

Georgetown must have a great lawyer arguing these cases.

Josh Smith quit the team at UCLA six games into his junior season, decided to transfer to Georgetown, won a hardship waiver to be immediately eligible despite not having graduated, never having been hurt, and being from the Seattle area (so no sick relative explanation).

He played 13 games that season and then was declared academically ineligible. He then got another waiver to play a 5th season despite never being hurt.

None of this was ever explained to the public.

TCTORNADO · Apr 23, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
Georgetown must have a great lawyer arguing these cases.

Josh Smith quit the team at UCLA six games into his junior season, decided to transfer to Georgetown, won a hardship waiver to be immediately eligible despite not having graduated, never having been hurt, and being from the Seattle area (so no sick relative explanation).

He played 13 games that season and then was declared academically ineligible. He then got another waiver to play a 5th season despite never being hurt.

None of this was ever explained to the public.

The last name of Thompson says it all.

Newman · Apr 23, 2016

Obelix said:
Abrams is a slam dunk, he will be back. A lot less chances for Thorne.

I thought so too and still believe that's true but if the NCAA is starting to rule that a player just needs to stay under the 30% to get it approved, despite returning for a game or two, then his chances would be just as likely. Expecting the NCAA to be consistent with their rulings might be a little crazy though.

whovous · Apr 23, 2016

I think the key for Thorne is to keep the two issues separate. The first is whether he qualifies for a medical redshirt; i.e., had this happened in his second, third or fourth year, would he qualify for a medical hardship waiver. It appears that Hayes got a waiver for his first year three years after the fact, in spite of the fact that he played in the second half of the season in question. Hayes' injury took place before that season. One could surmise that he tried to play several times in both the first and second halves of the season but was unable to do so. Big Mike tried only once in the second half of the season. The key point seems to be that playing in the second half of the season is not automatically dispositive. Instead, the question is whether the season ending injury took place in the first half of the season.

If and only if he qualifies for a medical redshirt do we reach the question of whether he can get a waiver for a sixth season. I think his chances are much better on the second question than on the first. We already know he got a medical redshirt as a freshman. That would mean he missed two seasons for reasons beyond the control both of him and of his team(s). Reasons beyond control for BOTH missed seasons seems to be the essential element of getting a sixth season. It is hard to think of anything better than a medical redshirt to qualify on the "beyond control" of player, coach, or administration issue.

I just hope that those who say the NCAA usually acts quickly on this sort of issue (unlike seemingly all the other issues that they manage to put off forever) are right. If so, we should know the answer in no more than two weeks.

illineuron · Apr 23, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
Georgetown must have a great lawyer arguing these cases.

Josh Smith quit the team at UCLA six games into his junior season, decided to transfer to Georgetown, won a hardship waiver to be immediately eligible despite not having graduated, never having been hurt, and being from the Seattle area (so no sick relative explanation).

He played 13 games that season and then was declared academically ineligible. He then got another waiver to play a 5th season despite never being hurt.

None of this was ever explained to the public.

I think I recall that Smith had quit UCLA in part because his coach (don't recall who) essentially had called him 'fat'. He was/is a large young man. Apparently the environment for Mr. Smith was considered adequately hostile that it was given consideration in the determination of his immediate eligibility. Could be wrong on that.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Apr 23, 2016

TCTORNADO said:
He did break his foot before he entered Georgetown as a freshman. Maybe it was not fully healed, thus limiting his minutes to a total of 14.

If the injury happened before he enrolled, then it wouldn't be a factor. Plus he played in games in Feb and March that season.

Just seems odd to me to get a red shirt season after 4 years for something that happened as a freshman. You'd think that ruling would have come after that season, not now.

Big Al · Apr 24, 2016

You petition for a 5th year after you've been there for 4.

Second and Chalmers · Apr 24, 2016

Newman said:
Expecting the NCAA to be consistent with their rulings might be a little crazy though.

I think it's a lot crazy, personally. Inconsistent enforcement is a pillar of NCAA administration.

TCTORNADO · Apr 24, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
If the injury happened before he enrolled, then it wouldn't be a factor. Plus he played in games in Feb and March that season.

Just seems odd to me to get a red shirt season after 4 years for something that happened as a freshman. You'd think that ruling would have come after that season, not now.

2016 NCAA Manual
12.8.4 Hardship Waiver
a) The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any two year or four year collegiate institution or occurs after the first day of classes in the student athletes Senior year in high school.

That waiver also states the 30% of the season factor and does not say anything about differentiating about February, December or March.
Personally, I think where Thorne gets screwed is his injury occurred in the fifth year plus he had another in his first year. NCAA has no provision for 2 season ending injuries nor for one that ends in the fifth year. TA's case does technically involve an injury in one of the four seasons but also has an injury in the fifth. Jess Settles was the only 6th year guy I could find, but his injury occurred in one of his first four years.

whovous · Apr 24, 2016

Doesn't the whole sixth year waiver depend on getting two medical redshirts? Why should it matter which years saw the injuries take place?

Obelix · Apr 24, 2016

TCTORNADO said:
Jess Settles was the only 6th year guy I could find, but his injury occurred in one of his first four years.

Evan Eschmeyer is another one, there have been more but Settles and Eschmeyer were both in the B1G.

whovous · Apr 24, 2016

There was also a Minnesota big, but I've forgotten his name.

Dakota Orange · Apr 24, 2016

whovous said:
There was also a Minnesota big, but I've forgotten his name.

Trevor Mbakwe. Plays overseas now I believe

Newman · Apr 24, 2016

Dakota Orange said:
Trevor Mbakwe. Plays overseas now I believe

Yep, and he was hurt in his 5th year. Does anyone know of any 5th year guys that were hurt in their last year and were denied a waiver for a 6th year? I can't think of any off the top of my head.