Nebraska 80, Illinois 74 OT Postgame

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#676      
BashCtIllini
the juiceman cometh said:
Yeah, this is the thing for me. Plan A was run an offense based around high volume 3 point shooting at a somewhat efficient clip (33% or higher). It's not a bad plan A. They actually do get a lot of good looks at 3s. But clearly, the efficiency has not been there to make it consistently effective. A lot of games where even the open 3s don't fall.

So what is plan B? It doesn't seem like there is one.
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I think there's a misnomer in here, you said run an offense. I honestly have no clue what our offense is. All I see is guys spread out along the 3 point line and stand there.

Now if we ran sets with the purpose of getting guys clean looks at 3, that would be one thing, but that is absolutely not what we do.
 
#677      
BalloonsTheElephant
With no Tomi, we have no spacing.
With no spacing, we get no dribble penetration.
With no dribble penetration, we get no open kick out threes.
With no open kick out threes, we play ISO and take bad threes/contested shots.
With bad shots, they don't respect us from three, so we have no spacing.
And the loop continues.

That's why Tre and KB have looked so poorly. The PnR is dead, so back cuts are gone. There's no threat to the basket, so the reads for cuts and options go away, and we just stand there.

Maybe Riley can be your small ball 5 and pick and pop on threes. I don't know, but this offense looks gross. I'm not making excuses for it any longer.
 
#678      
Indy Illini Fan
CoalCity said:
I hope we hire 2
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I’d be just fine with 3 …

Kwa, Tyler and Hamer demoted or fired … Simple …

For how much money we got … Go throw the bag at Gentry and Yaklich to come here and actually COACH offense and defense …

And then go get a freaking ace recruiter … P Murph, Mike Boynton, Rod Clark … I don’t care … I don’t want Hamer recruiting freaking Chicago anymore …

Would rather spend a few million on a staff and a little less on Ben Humbrickhous and Carey Booth …
 
#679      
CoalCity
Indy Illini Fan said:
I’d be just fine with 3 …

Kwa, Tyler and Hamer demoted or fired … Simple …

For how much money we got … Go throw the bag at Gentry and Yaklich to come here and actually COACH offense and defense …

And then go get a freaking ace recruiter … P Murph, Mike Boynton, Rod Clark … I don’t care … I don’t want Hamer recruiting freaking Chicago anymore …

Would rather spend a few million on a staff and a little less on Ben Humbrickhous and Carey Booth …
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Ha, I was gonna say 3 also but I didnt want to be too greedy. Agree 100%
 
#680      
Indy Illini Fan
IMG_0482.jpeg


If we want a guy who can coach and recruit … Just saying … 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
#681      
biglug58
TheodoreRex said:
What's this team desperately missing right now... ANY post presence on offense. Like even a guy we can just have post up... We don't have any way to get easy buckets right now... But good thing we ran off Dainja, Amani, shoot, even Ty... Tyler's grand plan was stretch the floor, shoot 3's, who gives a crap about post offense or the inside out game... Problem is that he built a team and an offense around shooting and we don't shoot it well
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FIFY
 
#682      
aaeismacgychel
Indy Illini Fan said:
Used to be Gentry …

Tyler is one dimensional … Make shots offense … And when the shots aren’t falling … Shoot more … No adjustments …

Hamer should never have been an assistant coach … He was a video guy for a WNBA team … He should’ve been a video guy here and I wouldn’t have been complaining … Running our defense ??? Unacceptable …

Brad loves analytics so much … Here’s some analytics for him … 28.6% from 3 during Big Ten play as a team … Boswell 25% from 3 during Big Ten play … Will Riley 21% from 3 during Big Ten play … Tre White 17% from 3 during Big Ten play … DGL 29% from 3 during Big Ten play … Ben Humbrickhous 31% from 3 during Big Ten play …

Elite shooting team huh ?? 🙄💩

Now how bout we analyze how to make adjustments and win a daggum game …
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To back up your analytics argument even further, when it comes to Ben on the offensive side of the ball, there's data even more damning than the shooting percentage.

So far in B10 play, Ben individually contributes to about 1.07ppp for the possessions he actively participates. The problem is that not only is this lower than the team's average 1.09ppp on offense, it's that he only contributes to 13.7% of possessions in 29mpg. That means that on offense for the 52 offensive possessions per game he's on the court for, he actively participates in only 7 of them! That is practically invisible! Especially considering he is terrible at assisting and offensive rebounding for his size.

And just to give people an idea of how unbelievably passive Ben has been in B10 play this year, Ty Rodgers, who we can all agree is not an offensive dynamo and in fact had a large portion of the fanbase up in arms about "whenever we play him it's 4 on 5", these are his offensive efficiency metric comparables in B10 play:

Ben: 1.07ppp, contributes to 13.7% of possessions, 47.6% Total Shooting, 4.2% Offensive rebounding pct, 3.6% assist rate, 10.4% Free Throw Rate
Ty: 1.19ppp, contributes to 17.5% of possessions, 57.2% Total Shooting, 11.6% Offensive rebounding pct, 14.4% assist rate, 40.4% Free Throw Rate

So basically, if Ty had the same minutes as Ben and had similar metrics to last year, he individually be contributing 3.3ppg more, along with just about triple the offensive rebounds, and quadruple the number of assists and drawn fouls. That is so far beyond damning it is vomit inducing.

And I know some people are going to look at this and defend Ben by comparing him to the lackluster play of some of our other guys, and I want to say, I have absolutely nothing against Ben. Honestly, I feel for the kid- he probably saw things going a lot better this year and he's struggling. But, objectively, on offense, he has been almost invisible outside of the threes he shoots.

I like that Brad and Tyler have analytics in mind and focus on them, they should do that. But analytics can also be misused for confirmation bias, and at some point you have to get over it, look at the data objectively, and say "this pains me but it ain't working" and come up with an analytically better solution.

I feel for Ben, I do, but Brad has to start pulling minutes until Ben can figure out how to contribute more on a possession by possession basis and hit his shots at a reasonable rate, because he's not even playing at a B10 replacement level player right now.
 
#683      
Old Farm Illini
Indy Illini Fan said:
I don’t want Hamer recruiting freaking Chicago anymore …
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I cringed when I saw him taking a picture with a recruit. It took me a second to realize that the player wasn't taking a picture with early career accountant. I'm sure he knows his stuff but he doesn't have the resume to be recruiting at this level to make up for the image of someone coaching a JV team. Is this disrespectful? Sure is but the business is cutthroat.
 
#684      
I-L-L 1318
aaeismacgychel said:
To back up your analytics argument even further, when it comes to Ben on the offensive side of the ball, there's data even more damning than the shooting percentage.

So far in B10 play, Ben individually contributes to about 1.07ppp for the possessions he actively participates. The problem is that not only is this lower than the team's average 1.09ppp on offense, it's that he only contributes to 13.7% of possessions in 29mpg. That means that on offense for the 52 offensive possessions per game he's on the court for, he actively participates in only 7 of them! That is practically invisible! Especially considering he is terrible at assisting and offensive rebounding for his size.

And just to give people an idea of how unbelievably passive Ben has been in B10 play this year, Ty Rodgers, who we can all agree is not an offensive dynamo and in fact had a large portion of the fanbase up in arms about "whenever we play him it's 4 on 5", these are his offensive efficiency metric comparables in B10 play:

Ben: 1.07ppp, contributes to 13.7% of possessions, 47.6% Total Shooting, 4.2% Offensive rebounding pct, 3.6% assist rate, 10.4% Free Throw Rate
Ty: 1.19ppp, contributes to 17.5% of possessions, 57.2% Total Shooting, 11.6% Offensive rebounding pct, 14.4% assist rate, 40.4% Free Throw Rate

So basically, if Ty had the same minutes as Ben and had similar metrics to last year, he individually be contributing 3.3ppg more, along with just about triple the offensive rebounds, and quadruple the number of assists and drawn fouls. That is so far beyond damning it is vomit inducing.

And I know some people are going to look at this and defend Ben by comparing him to the lackluster play of some of our other guys, and I want to say, I have absolutely nothing against Ben. Honestly, I feel for the kid- he probably saw things going a lot better this year and he's struggling. But, objectively, on offense, he has been almost invisible outside of the threes he shoots.

I like that Brad and Tyler have analytics in mind and focus on them, they should do that. But analytics can also be misused for confirmation bias, and at some point you have to get over it, look at the data objectively, and say "this pains me but it ain't working" and come up with an analytically better solution.

I feel for Ben, I do, but Brad has to start pulling minutes until Ben can figure out how to contribute more on a possession by possession basis and hit his shots at a reasonable rate, because he's not even playing at a B10 replacement level player right now.
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Don't disagree that Ben needs less tick at all, but Ty was essentially a ball handler last year, and Ben is used as a floor spacer. Hard to compare.
 
#687      
aaeismacgychel
I-L-L 1318 said:
Don't disagree that Ben needs less tick at all, but Ty was essentially a ball handler last year, and Ben is used as a floor spacer. Hard to compare.
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Sigh... I think you're completely missing the point I was making. Yes, Ben and Ty play much much different roles. This is not an apples to apples comparison. This is simply to show how little Ben actively contributes to our offense. A traffic cone can also be used as a floor spacer and would have 7 less assists in B10 play and average 1 less offensive rebound per game.
 
#688      
I-L-L 1318
aaeismacgychel said:
Sigh... I think you're completely missing the point I was making. Yes, Ben and Ty play much much different roles. This is not an apples to apples comparison. This is simply to show how little Ben actively contributes to our offense. A traffic cone can also be used as a floor spacer and would have 7 less assists in B10 play and average 1 less offensive rebound per game.
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All I am suggesting is it is hard to statistically measure how much gravity Ben has as a spacer/shooter
 
#689      
Second place is 1st loser
Se Il Illini said:
KJ looks lost. This should be where the coaches step in and fix the situation, Change some things up.
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The only thing that you can change is his mindset. He passes up layups for kick out threes, he dribbles it off his foot, he's shooting the ball incredibly poorly and he's not protecting the ball. They're freshman mistakes. You change things up by taking minutes away.
 
#690      
More3s
aaeismacgychel said:
Sigh... I think you're completely missing the point I was making. Yes, Ben and Ty play much much different roles. This is not an apples to apples comparison. This is simply to show how little Ben actively contributes to our offense. A traffic cone can also be used as a floor spacer and would have 7 less assists in B10 play and average 1 less offensive rebound per game.
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Hmm you might be missing his point? I think his argument is that using your apparent criteria of "active" being that you have the ball in your hands (or something like that - I'm not exactly sure what you're using for criteria there so I'm guessing) doesn't give a good picture of how a floor spacer contributes to offense, just because a good shooter in the corner means that in theory his defender can't help off, thus keeping the lane open.

Of course this is dependent on ACTUALLY being a dangerous shooter (which traffic cones, and currently Humrichous, are not).
 
#691      
FloridaMan
aaeismacgychel said:
To back up your analytics argument even further, when it comes to Ben on the offensive side of the ball, there's data even more damning than the shooting percentage.

So far in B10 play, Ben individually contributes to about 1.07ppp for the possessions he actively participates. The problem is that not only is this lower than the team's average 1.09ppp on offense, it's that he only contributes to 13.7% of possessions in 29mpg. That means that on offense for the 52 offensive possessions per game he's on the court for, he actively participates in only 7 of them! That is practically invisible! Especially considering he is terrible at assisting and offensive rebounding for his size.

And just to give people an idea of how unbelievably passive Ben has been in B10 play this year, Ty Rodgers, who we can all agree is not an offensive dynamo and in fact had a large portion of the fanbase up in arms about "whenever we play him it's 4 on 5", these are his offensive efficiency metric comparables in B10 play:

Ben: 1.07ppp, contributes to 13.7% of possessions, 47.6% Total Shooting, 4.2% Offensive rebounding pct, 3.6% assist rate, 10.4% Free Throw Rate
Ty: 1.19ppp, contributes to 17.5% of possessions, 57.2% Total Shooting, 11.6% Offensive rebounding pct, 14.4% assist rate, 40.4% Free Throw Rate

So basically, if Ty had the same minutes as Ben and had similar metrics to last year, he individually be contributing 3.3ppg more, along with just about triple the offensive rebounds, and quadruple the number of assists and drawn fouls. That is so far beyond damning it is vomit inducing.

And I know some people are going to look at this and defend Ben by comparing him to the lackluster play of some of our other guys, and I want to say, I have absolutely nothing against Ben. Honestly, I feel for the kid- he probably saw things going a lot better this year and he's struggling. But, objectively, on offense, he has been almost invisible outside of the threes he shoots.

I like that Brad and Tyler have analytics in mind and focus on them, they should do that. But analytics can also be misused for confirmation bias, and at some point you have to get over it, look at the data objectively, and say "this pains me but it ain't working" and come up with an analytically better solution.

I feel for Ben, I do, but Brad has to start pulling minutes until Ben can figure out how to contribute more on a possession by possession basis and hit his shots at a reasonable rate, because he's not even playing at a B10 replacement level player right now.
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Yes, but how would Ty "grade out" on the defensive end? Just imagine how bad we would be if Ben wasn't so good on that end? /s
 
#692      
Scfan
Indy Illini Fan said:
I’d be just fine with 3 …

Kwa, Tyler and Hamer demoted or fired … Simple …

For how much money we got … Go throw the bag at Gentry and Yaklich to come here and actually COACH offense and defense …

And then go get a freaking ace recruiter … P Murph, Mike Boynton, Rod Clark … I don’t care … I don’t want Hamer recruiting freaking Chicago anymore …

Would rather spend a few million on a staff and a little less on Ben Humbrickhous and Carey Booth …
Click to expand...
I’m sure Tyler is a nice kid but he really needs to cut his coaching teeth somewhere else. Nepotism isn’t allowed in other areas of the University but it appears to be acceptable in Athletics (Lovie Smith’s son is another example).
 
#693      
Second place is 1st loser
BalloonsTheElephant said:
With no Tomi, we have no spacing.
With no spacing, we get no dribble penetration.
With no dribble penetration, we get no open kick out threes.
With no open kick out threes, we play ISO and take bad threes/contested shots.
With bad shots, they don't respect us from three, so we have no spacing.
And the loop continues.

That's why Tre and KB have looked so poorly. The PnR is dead, so back cuts are gone. There's no threat to the basket, so the reads for cuts and options go away, and we just stand there.

Maybe Riley can be your small ball 5 and pick and pop on threes. I don't know, but this offense looks gross. I'm not making excuses for it any longer.
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Winner!

It all starts with your first sentence.
 
#694      
I-L-L 1318
More3s said:
Hmm you might be missing his point? I think his argument is that using your apparent criteria of "active" being that you have the ball in your hands (or something like that - I'm not exactly sure what you're using for criteria there so I'm guessing) doesn't give a good picture of how a floor spacer contributes to offense, just because a good shooter in the corner means that in theory his defender can't help off, thus keeping the lane open.

Of course this is dependent on ACTUALLY being a dangerous shooter (which traffic cones, and currently Humrichous, are not).
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Yes! I certainly wouldn't be rushing to close out on Ben, but teams still are, and his man is hesitant to help off of him. Watch how open most of Tre or Will's (unless he's on a heater) looks are.
 
#695      
BackThatPassUp
Indy Illini Fan said:
I’d be just fine with 3 …

Kwa, Tyler and Hamer demoted or fired … Simple …

For how much money we got … Go throw the bag at Gentry and Yaklich to come here and actually COACH offense and defense …

And then go get a freaking ace recruiter … P Murph, Mike Boynton, Rod Clark … I don’t care … I don’t want Hamer recruiting freaking Chicago anymore …

Would rather spend a few million on a staff and a little less on Ben Humbrickhous and Carey Booth …
Click to expand...
We're paying for Booth?!
Dont Laugh Oops GIF by Rodney Dangerfield
 
#696      
IllinitripleJ
Brad should shorten his rotation and play his 5 best players more: Start KJ, Gibbs-Lawhorn, Tre White, Will Riley and alternate Johnson & Ivisic at center. Boswell should play less and just be used if DGL & Kasperus get in foul trouble.
 
#697      
OrangeBlue98
Scfan said:
I’m sure Tyler is a nice kid but he really needs to cut his coaching teeth somewhere else. Nepotism isn’t allowed in other areas of the University but it appears to be acceptable in Athletics (Lovie Smith’s son is another example).
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Plus, if Tyler is as talented as many (myself included) think he is then he should be ready and willing to show he can contribute on someone else's staff. It doesn't matter how good he is, if he's on his dad's staff he'll always have "well, he's the head coach's son" stigma attached to him (right or wrong).

Non-basketball example - my dad worked for a company for over 30 years before retiring. Family-run business, and eventually the third-generation son took it over from his dad and uncle. However, he worked outside of the company for a number of years before coming back to the company. Even then, when he joined the company he was in my dad's role for a couple of years after he retired. He had clearly proven his abilities both outside of the family business and then in roles below the head job before he took over.

I'd like to see Tyler do something similar.
 
#698      
sdiver68
So I didn't post this a couple of weeks ago upon the Tomi announcement but now it's obvious I should have.

Tomi led the team in the combined stat of PER, player efficiency rating. Although that stat isn't perfect, it's still pretty good and we are seeing 1st hand how much we miss him.

As for KJ, we have to remember he's a freshman. He will make mistakes. But we also should recognize that he's getting wide open looks for his teammates they are simply missing. Also, great passes in the post our guys can't handle. Those things won't happen at the next level.

I had hopes that Tre was a legit 3rd option and could take over games when others were struggling. Unfortunately he's been very inconsistent almost hesitant. I don't know if thats him or the coaches.
 
#699      
My2Cents
Ok, I can already hear the "get off my lawn" comments, but I for one laugh at analytics being used so heavily. Pick your favorite coaches, best coaches in your mind, now picture their son and or assistant coach telling them ignore everything you know and have learned by eye site. Analytics, IMHO are highly over rated, especially when not used correctly. I believe that is why you see Brad and so many other coaches who are poor in game adjusters. They get so hell bent on numbers they might as well wear a blindfold during the game. IF we shoot a bunch of 3's and IF we get a bunch of rebounds off those missed 3's analytics show blah blah blah. Here is an old school thought, if you are counting on us rebounding our missed 3's, are we not going to more than likely shoot a 2 pointer from said rebound? Sure sounds to me like a lot of IF'S and BUT's and we know what they say about that......if they were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas!!
 
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