NIT Final Four or NCAA First Four?

NIT Final Four or NCAA First Four in Dayton

  • NIT Final Four at the Garden

    Votes: 16 18.2%

  • NCAA First Four in Dayton

    Votes: 62 70.5%

  • It depends on how the program is trending

    Votes: 10 11.4%
  • Total voters
    88
#26      

The Galloping Ghost

The Galloping Ghost
Washington, DC
The Galloping Ghost
Second and Chalmers said:
But they aren't in the bracket. No one makes you submit your bracket until Thursday when the real games start. You know the identity of the First Four winners when submitting your picks.

If the format changed to 128, you'd submit a 128 team bracket on Tuesday or whenever.

When they originally came up with this First Four concept, I was yelling that the sky was falling because this was going to kill bracket pools. I was wrong. Instead, it has just been totally ignored. The NCAA tournament is weaker for it, but not in some big, noticeable way. The bubble no longer maps onto the actual tournament in an exact way, and the comically arrogant and short-sighted failed experiment with the "Second/Third Round" naming convention for the first weekend has left coaching resumes on Wikipedia and elsewhere utterly indecipherable (yes, I realize I care about that at the 99.9% percentile of college basketball fans), but it is still fundamentally healthy because it is still the 64-team bracketed gambling event starting with the basketball orgy of the first weekend that makes it such a marketable property.
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On the other hand, the media and fans spend an entire month (if not more) arguing who are and aren't the last 4 teams in the tournament. The biggest question after the bracket is released is why is this team in over that. There's is an entire cottage industry devoted to that single question.

Who the last 4 teams in the tournament are is the biggest discussion before and after the bracket is released (not the last 5-8). Even if you're not playing on that Thursday or Friday, you're still in the tournament and getting massive publicity.
 
#27      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
jcgoldie said:
I get it but it seems like a rather limited way to define the NCAA tournament especially from the perspective of college basketball teams themselves. Filling out your paper bracket may be all the NCAA tournament means to a lot of casual fans, but I don't think thats what it means at all to a lot of folks here let alone coaches or players, etc.
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Well, to carry forward with that logic, could it not be true that winning the NIT might be better for the long-term success of a young, inexperienced team going through the gelling process in a new system together than a one-and-done disappointment in the First Four? Seems possible.

But that strict basketball rationale is obviously overwhelmed by the attention and the big stage of the REAL NCAA tournament. The NCAA tournament is what college basketball is all about, you're there or you're nowhere. That's because of the casual fan engagement. You get virtually none of that in the First Four. The only piece you get is having your name called on the selection show, on half of a seed line, you don't even get a logo up there like all the real teams do.
 
#28      

UofI08

U
Chicago
UofI08
Somewhat tangent, but I think the First Four should really only be bubble teams. Reward the small 16 seeds by letting them play in the real thing. Let the final 8 Power 5 bubble teams play in those First 4 games.
 
#29      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
The Galloping Ghost said:
On the other hand, the media and fans spend an entire month (if not more) arguing who are and aren't the last 4 teams in the tournament. The biggest question after the bracket is released is why is this team in over that. There's is an entire cottage industry devoted to that single question.

Who the last 4 teams in the tournament are is the biggest discussion before and after the bracket is released (not the last 5-8). Even if you're not playing on that Thursday or Friday, you're still in the tournament and getting massive publicity.
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Yeah, this is the strongest counterargument to my point. And it's particularly strong for me because I put virtually zero value on winning the NIT even in the most "it creates genuine hope for the future" of circumstances.
 
#30      

Adnarel

A
Adnarel
Second and Chalmers said:
And it's particularly strong for me because I put virtually zero value on winning the NIT even in the most "it creates genuine hope for the future" of circumstances.
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The only reason I'm rooting for an NIT championship is so that we can send off the seniors in as positive of a manner as is possible given the circumstances.
 
#31      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Adnarel said:
The only reason I'm rooting for an NIT championship is so that we can send off the seniors in as positive of a manner as is possible given the circumstances.
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I tend more towards the idea that the best way to honor those guys is future success of the program they worked for and helped sustain. And to the extent that continued participation in the NIT makes that more difficult or less likely (and I do suspect that), I would say bowing out might be the best thing.

But would I have rather been in the First Four? To the extent that it would have meant Groce stayed (which I have come to doubt), I suppose not.

The 2017 Illini are a weird test case for this question.
 
#32      

Adnarel

A
Adnarel
Second and Chalmers said:
I tend more towards the idea that the best way to honor those guys is future success of the program they worked for and helped sustain. And to the extent that continued participation in the NIT makes that more difficult or less likely (and I do suspect that), I would say bowing out might be the best thing.
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I suspect the current seniors would be on the same page as you. The photo of Malcolm hunched over on the locker room floor after the Rutgers loss haunts me though. Pure pathos.

Agree that there is a great deal of grey area and room for discussion.
 
#33      

Ubermensch

Ubermensch
BOOM! Feed my ego.
Ubermensch
Anyone who answers NIT is necessarily dishonest or ignorant.

Plain silliness.
 
#35      

afpharmdawg

A
Colorado Springs
afpharmdawg
I picked it depends. Here is the thing the question did not specifically say Illinois. So if a program is trending up but still not NCAA caliber then the NIT is good for the team to gain some experience. If a team is Illinois then the NCAA is the best result. An NIT tourney run does really nothing for our program overall. Also, if a team is trending down then maybe an NIT run could turn that program around. You know give them some hope for next year. Game experience is always good. That being said I want the NCAA for our beloved.
 
#37      

wettsten

wettsten
Chicago
wettsten
if the goal every year is NCAA or bust, why even accept a bid to play in the NIT?
 
#38      

Adnarel

A
Adnarel
Because you end up looking like a bit of an !!!. See Indiana and their homecourt spiel.
 
#39      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Ubermensch said:
Anyone who answers NIT is necessarily dishonest or ignorant.

Plain silliness.
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Ok, then I'm dishonest. But since you didn't ask, here are my dishonest reasons:

1. Neither is nationally relevant, so I don't care that much.
2. First four is not IMHO making the dance. A few other, what I'll call purists, have also said it.
3. I think the team gets more out of being in the second tier tournament and progressing through it game by game, than a bridesmaid pseudo-invite that results in a disheartening loss to what is presumably another psuedo-invite team.
4. While I would prefer, as a fan, for certain outcomes, in this case, #3 is too important to take the alternative.
5. I suppose related to #3, more do-or-die games for the young guys might have some developmental advantages.
 
#40      

KrushCow31

KrushCow31
Former Krush Cow
Chicago, IL
KrushCow31
I would rather be in the Last Four In and win our first game and make the actual tournament than win the NIT. But I would rather win the NIT than be in the Last Four In and lose. Nobody cares/watches those play in games. I don't even consider them actually part of the tournament.

Next season, most people outside of our fanbase wouldn't even remember we were in a play in game and lost. Nobody cares.
 
#41      

illiniknight

I
illiniknight
Even though I would strongly like to see the tournament go back to 64 teams, I still would choose the First Four. Even though you are not really a part of the tournament as S&C has made clear, you still are referred to as making the tournament. If nothing else being referred to as a tournament team is more positive for the program than winning a few games in the NIT.
 
#42      

illiniguy24

illiniguy24
illiniguy24
I would definitely say you get more national attention as "a program trending upwards" of you WIN the NIT, versus losing the in NCAA first four. Arguably just as much attention just making the NIT champ game in general versus the first four.

For Illinois, I think we would all be happier next year making the first four and losing versus another deep NIT run.


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#43      

Deleted member 628259

D
Guest
Deleted member 628259
First Four, no contest. You still have a chance, no matter how minuscule, to win it all.
 
#44      

The Galloping Ghost

The Galloping Ghost
Washington, DC
The Galloping Ghost
illiniguy24 said:
I would definitely say you get more national attention as "a program trending upwards" of you WIN the NIT, versus losing the in NCAA first four. Arguably just as much attention just making the NIT champ game in general versus the first four.

For Illinois, I think we would all be happier next year making the first four and losing versus another deep NIT run.


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Does anyone actually watch the NIT when we aren't in there? I watch a lot of sports and can't name last year's NIT winner.

The NIT is like the Pro Bowl. It exists, you might turn it on for a few minutes, but nobody cares or remembers it (unless Sean Taylor blows up a kicker).
 
#45      

Serious Late

Serious Late
Peoria via Denver via Ann Arbor via Albuquerque vi
Serious Late
So the question is "would you rather your season be already over with a pretty disappointing NCAA Tourney stay or still be competing for the honor of 69th best team in the country?"

Silly. One result is an already known, disappointing end to a season. The other result is a still unknown, still getting to watch games result. Yes, I would rather still be watching Illinois games than not get to still be watching Illinois games.

That said, at the outset of the tournament, I would take the much more difficult, much more likely to be out early outcome of the First Four, over the more likely to last longer, but far more disappointing end season result of the NIT.

Comparing a known to an unknown is odd. If the question is, in June, would I rather we lost in the First Four of the NCAA Tourney or been NIT Champions... I would rather have lost in the First Four of the NCAA. We were at least in the game. The NIT is an exhibition event.
 
#46      

wettsten

wettsten
Chicago
wettsten
Adnarel said:
Because you end up looking like a bit of an !!!. See Indiana and their homecourt spiel.
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so the "or bust" part is all a lie.

it's basically ncaa or if-we-get-invited-to-the-nit-we'll-begrudgingly-accept-and-then-tank-the-first-game-and-hope-no-one-notices