Agree 100%
Penn State 74, Illinois 52 POSTGAME
Agree 100%
BTN cut to Underwood in the huddle during a timeout. He was telling the guys to make harder cuts, if I remember correctly. He knows it's a problem and is coaching these guys to do better. They're just not doing it.
Practice at 5:00 a.m. since clearly the 6:00 a.m. didn't work.
Extra time was needed to accommodate the backup at the treadmill.
38.8% overall is not very good.
illini80
- Forgottonia
I think it was fairly well known that he was not a high % shooter, but he shot a lot and was productive. Was supposed to be able to get his own shot and that hasn't panned out either. Really thought he would be much better around the rim. Almost never gets a shot off inside the paint.
I liked DJ. Like Alstork he played good D. DJ was primarily a 3 point shooter. In fact he took well over 60 % of his shots from 3. He was really, really poor inside of 3, & 38.8% overall is NOT good.
That said, DJ spent his whole career playing against better competition than Alstork.
Do you know that Underwood didn't believe Alstork was more of a defensive presence, than offensive?
I think that Underwood can be tremendously successful at U of I with the right personnel. When the team actually works and fights, the system that BU runs is a good brand of basketball. The worry is that he will not be able to recruit enough of that type of player in the future. You have one of the top Big Man coaches and you can’t recruit a big guy to save our lives. We also have a great connection to Chicago scene but have only lured Ayo (big get). Just a ton of random worries after this game..
GortTheRobot
- North Bethesda, Maryland
I have NEVER agreed with any post more that I agree with this one.
All the analyzing in the world doesn't change the fact that to win championships the coaching staff of any college basketball program will have to recruit championship caliber players. The formula is extremely simple. So far BU shows no indication that he possesses the ability to recruit enough championship caliber players to win championships. Does BU possess the coaching chops to win championships? The answer to that question is unequivocally YES.
Bill Self is an average coach who has the ability to recruit championship caliber players and he has a NC and several Final 4's to prove it. Bruce Weber could win championships with championship caliber players, he proved that, but he couldn't recruit them to come to Illinois. Maybe no one can.
Bill Self is an average coach who has the ability to recruit championship caliber players and he has a NC and several Final 4's to prove it. Bruce Weber could win championships with championship caliber players, he proved that, but he couldn't recruit them to come to Illinois. Maybe no one can.
I’m confused. How did the championship caliber players Weber coached at Illinois get here?
Illinois made back to back coaching hire mistakes, and then doubled down on those mistakes by sticking with them too long.
Underwood has been the coach for 11 months. He landed Illinois Mr. Basketball almost immediately and Ayo this fall. He’s now had a season to evaluate his roster and it looks like wholesale changes will be made. Give it some time.
Counterpoint. Bill Self is a terrific coach who recruits terrific players. His record at every stop is undeniable with varying degrees of talent.
Average coach? Tough crowd
Talent is independent of rankings, although there is a correlation between rankings (especially at the high end) and expected talent level. Frazier is a talent, arguably the most talented player we've had since Dee/Deron (sans Jereme Richmond). Clearly outplaying his ranking. The rest of the freshmen are about what one should have expected, not really under-performing.
Damonte IMO will be a decent B1G player, given his injury where many expected him to RS, he is definitely not under-performing. Smith is going through some growing pains as a freshman, but not under-performing much either considering his ranking. The reason that some illini fans see Smith as under-performing is because most on this board built their expectations up and placed more value on winning Mr. Basketball than his actual ranking. Many expected a sure starter, and argued that he was seriously under-ranked. Reality is he was not. His ranking was fair.
Leron is not bad this year, definitely not under-performing either under BU. Better than previous years where he played below ranking expectations. He had already been in college for 3 years prior to BU arriving. Was he playing better under Groce? Of course not. It is not that BU came in and Leron started to under-perform.
This is definitely not one of BU's better coaching jobs, nothing to brag about. But he is still a good coach IMO. Can he get the talent? Not sure about that, but is definitely more the case of not having the talent needed, than having talented players who are under-performing.
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Huh? Those championship caliber player who Weber inherited were obviously recruited to Illinois by someone, they just did not land at UI from Mars.
Deleted member 631370
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I don't believe in pinning our failures on Mark Smith. And in the end, I agree with Underwood that I think he's going to be a 1,000 point scorer.
But the bolded isn't quite accurate. That's not entirely why people (like myself) held those expectations. Rather, what generated those expectations was Underwood's comments about Smith early in which he raved about how special a talent Smith was. The fact that Smith got into the starting lineup right out of the gate -- and was scoring 13/14 points a game early -- confirmed my hopes that he was poised for a big freshman season. I didn't expect him to score 13 a game in B1G play, but I certainly expected more than 3 points/game.
But we also can't downplay his rankings in HS and suggest that he wasn't really highly touted. He didn't soar into the top-50 across all services, mostly because he blew up very late. But what spoke volumes -- more so than a ranking on a website -- was the manner in which schools like UK and Michigan State pursued him. They weren't going after a kid they thought was a project.
No need to freak out about Mark Smith, but his expectations were fairly lofty for a reason. But not everybody adjusts as quickly as we all hope. Hopefully he sticks with it, and this offseason proves to be pivotal for him.
Deleted member 631370
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You're really tying your "this is Underwood's fault" argument to alstork's shooting woes?
Well, good luck to you. But as a guy who has played more than a few competitive basketball games, there is no substitute for confidence. And confidence is a tricky thing. I can only speak for myself, but I play with greater confidence against lesser competition than I do against much better competition. I can't explain why, but even something as simple as my release on my jumpshot from 19 feet seems a little off when I'm playing in a higher-stakes situation.
It's very clear that Alstork isnt' adjusting well to the gigantic step up in competition.......and his shooting % reflects that.
That's not the case for everybody, but this isn't exactly a rarity.
I'm guessing he has to work much harder on defense so he doesn't have the legs to make the shots and he certainly had a mental component, especially early, that easily could contribute. Just watching the form on his shot, it is certainly not surprising that he might struggle from one season to the next. Sometimes it just happens for whatever reason. That may or may not be on the coach.
Starks dropped 9% and Cosby 7% in their one year at UI. Throw in Alstork at 15% and it's not out of the question that the backdrop at SFC might have something to do with it. Jordan took some time to adjust to UC. Throw in the fact that players don't get to practice at SFC on a regular basis and one might have reasons for shooter's decline. P.S. throw in Legion's 9% drop. Plus Alex never missed a 3 in practice at Ubben.
t7nich
- Central IL
Classic!
Brad Underwood's comments did not help in over-inflating fans' expectations on Mark Smith, but this has nothing to do with whether Mark Smith is overplaying or underplaying his rankings. People can place more or less value on "elements" for their own expectations, but that again is not rankings. Mark Smith was the #90 RSCI ranked player, and his freshman averaging 6.2 ppg and overall play is definitely not out of the norm.
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
If they win a championship they are, by default, championship caliber players, regardless of how they were perceived as recruits. It's kind of a circular argument.
Deleted member 631370
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I'm responding to your claim that fans' expectations for Mark Smith were built on his Mr. Basketball title. I'm saying that no, those expectations were built on the backs of several things.
If you're looking solely at recruiting rankings, then Smith's output isn't necessarily out of line with a kid ranked #90. But then, that's not a complete way of looking at it considering he blew up late and not all services dedicate a lot of time scouting kids deep into their senior season. A kid that plummeted to #90 (like a Mike Shaw) is quite a bit different in my view than a kid that came out of nowhere to finish at #90 (as Smith did). Yes, #90 is #90, but context matters when trying to project at the next level. I had very little optimism for Mike Shaw based on the way he fell. I had lots of optimism for Mark Smith based on the way he rose.
Plus, 6.2 ppg is a pretty decent stat for a freshman near the bottom of the top-100, but what concerns me most is the 3 ppg in Big Ten play.
haasi
- New York
Starks dropped 9% and Cosby 7% in their one year at UI. Throw in Alstork at 15% and it's not out of the question that the backdrop at SFC might have something to do with it. Jordan took some time to adjust to UC. Throw in the fact that players don't get to practice at SFC on a regular basis and one might have reasons for shooter's decline. P.S. throw in Legion's 9% drop. Plus Alex never missed a 3 in practice at Ubben.
Big point! How do we do this? We need to start having some practices and more shootarounds at SFC. Part of Home court advantage is familiarity and comfort with the court, and we’re depriving ourselves of a potentially significant advantage. Needs to be corrected.
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Again, it has nothing to do with "claims." My post was in response to a statement about Mark Smith under-performing his ranking/rating under Brad Underwood. That statement is not true. For "most" fans, which I believe is true, it was the Mr. Basketball award (which for me is becoming more and more irrelevant in national recruiting). For others, as a mentioned, it can be other "elements", for you it was the "BU statement" or the "rise/improvement" etc. But the bottom line, as I said in previous post, the statement that Mark Smith is under-performing his ranking/rating under Brad Underwood is incorrect.
Whether Mark Smith is underperforming fan expectation for whatever reason, based on elements and factors that fans value most (e.g., BU statement, improvement in HS, etc.) is a totally different discussion. Everyone can have their own expectations based on what they value most.