Penn State 83, Illinois 70 POSTGAME

RickBB · Feb 12, 2017

KRSAS said:
I'm really curious to find what exactly his system is?

My health club used to have a pretty good and consistent 6 am run....every once in a while I'd get lucky enough to have this 6-5 Ukranian and 6-4 former minor leaguer on my team...usually there would be some newbie coming in and trying to act like he was Bob Cousey....I'd tell him "a bad shot is better than a pretty turnover with those guys on our team."

I guess I didn't recognize John Groce when he came to play with us and take my advice as his offensive philosophy.

Illiniwek06 · Feb 12, 2017

jrichisamazing said:
The product we are seeing is not the system obviously. It's the result of players not understanding the system and/or players' skillset not matching what they are asked to do. What we are seeing is poor execution.

But a big part of Groce's system is winning individual battles and creating your own shot. We have 1 player who can do that consistently, Malcolm Hill. That is a big problem.

i.e., there is no system.

VA Illini Chief · Feb 13, 2017

At least we kept our streak of not winning back to back big ten games alive. Impressive

FiveStar · Feb 13, 2017

Illiniwek06 said:
i.e., there is no system.

Would you say that about Calipari's ddmo which is based on the exact same thing?

JoseyWales83 · Feb 13, 2017

Has the elbow to the face of TJL been addressed? Wondering if Groce could have challenged that and got a flagarent 1 on that play.

Illinoise · Feb 13, 2017

Illiniwek06 said:
i.e., there is no system.

No matter what "system" you run you have to have players who can win 1 on 1 matchups consistently or at least break down a defense with penetration and draw help. This team really has neither. they try to get JCL open shots but he really isn't a threat off the dribble so you can stay in his hip pocket and go over every screen. I am not advocating that Groce stays but I am really surprised at the level of blame his coaching gets in this. He doesn't have the players, and yes that is his fault and why he is gone at the end of this year. I just don't understand what else he can do with this group. I honestly don't. I think everyone who thinks this will get better with a new coach next year is setting that new coach up for unrealistic expectations. I see comments all the time on here about what DJW, Jordan and the freshmen are going to be able to do with a competent coach. It's going to bad even if Thibodeau has had enough of the NBA and comes to town.

Madprof · Feb 13, 2017

Being owned by Penn State has me in the depths of despair. It is humiliating. As a fan for 35 years, I would have thought it was impossible but it turns out that 2 bad coaching hires (and a bad AD hire) go a long way.

Illiniwek06 · Feb 13, 2017

FiveStar said:
Would you say that about Calipari's ddmo which is based on the exact same thing?

If you don't have the players to perform the "system" you want to run, you don't have anything.

Illinoise said:
No matter what "system" you run you have to have players who can win 1 on 1 matchups consistently or at least break down a defense with penetration and draw help. This team really has neither.

Yup, which is why it is so frustrating watching Groce's "system."

Illiniguy13 · Feb 14, 2017

Illinoise said:
No matter what "system" you run you have to have players who can win 1 on 1 matchups consistently or at least break down a defense with penetration and draw help. This team really has neither. they try to get JCL open shots but he really isn't a threat off the dribble so you can stay in his hip pocket and go over every screen. I am not advocating that Groce stays but I am really surprised at the level of blame his coaching gets in this. He doesn't have the players, and yes that is his fault and why he is gone at the end of this year. I just don't understand what else he can do with this group. I honestly don't. I think everyone who thinks this will get better with a new coach next year is setting that new coach up for unrealistic expectations. I see comments all the time on here about what DJW, Jordan and the freshmen are going to be able to do with a competent coach. It's going to bad even if Thibodeau has had enough of the NBA and comes to town.

I can almost guarantee you DJ & AJ would be further along in their development had they committed elsewhere. They have plenty of talent & could very well thrive under a competent staff.

FatGreg · Feb 14, 2017

Groce runs the same basic system as virtually every team in the NBA and several top NCAA programs. The system is based on catching defenders on screens and forcing help on awkward switches, which creates one of three outcomes: 1) open lane for ball handler (which then leads to a layup, dump off, or kick out), 2) open perimeter shooter, or 3) scramble situation that ends up with exploitable mismatches on a quick reset at the top of the key.

The system is fine. The problem is we don't have guys who can make it work. That's part recruiting, part skill development, and part coaching. Groce has proven to be overmatched in the Big Ten, but a high ball screen offense with lots of iso action is not the problem. The sad part of the stuff we're running is that 17-foot jumpers are literally the last thing our system should generate. Unfortunately, we have no one who can consistently break down a defense and too few reliable shooters.

LurkLongandProsper · Feb 14, 2017

FatGreg said:
Groce runs the same basic system as virtually every team in the NBA and several top NCAA programs. The system is based on catching defenders on screens and forcing help on awkward switches, which creates one of three outcomes: 1) open lane for ball handler (which then leads to a layup, dump off, or kick out), 2) open perimeter shooter, or 3) scramble situation that ends up with exploitable mismatches on a quick reset at the top of the key.

The system is fine. The problem is we don't have guys who can make it work. That's part recruiting, part skill development, and part coaching. Groce has proven to be overmatched in the Big Ten, but a high ball screen offense with lots of iso action is not the problem. The sad part of the stuff we're running is that 17-foot jumpers are literally the last thing our system should generate. Unfortunately, we have no one who can consistently break down a defense and too few reliable shooters.

We have yet to see even traces of what you have described, and that's not strictly because of talent deficiencies.

FatGreg · Feb 14, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
We have yet to see even traces of what you have described, and that's not strictly because of talent deficiencies.

Agreed. That's why I noted deficiencies in recruiting, skill development, and coaching. Groce has failed on every level. Just saying that what he's purportedly trying to do is reasonable enough.

LurkLongandProsper · Feb 14, 2017

FatGreg said:
Agreed. That's why I noted deficiencies in recruiting, skill development, and coaching. Groce has failed on every level. Just saying that what he's purportedly trying to do is reasonable enough.

The only consistent descriptor for his offense i've heard him use is "ball screen, attacking offense", and we're not even that. If it was that and we were just doing it badly, I'd probably be happier. The issue is, as has been detailed at length, that we don't actually have a system or identity.

Illiniguy13 · Feb 14, 2017

ju1ce said:
dunno about that

Easily. DJ & AJ have their shortcomings but their games really should translate at this level. A former top 70 player equipped with athleticism & versatility and a shooter who picked up 4 BIG10 offers may very well thrive under some better guidance. I'm glad AJ didn't want to be a Hoosier. I could see him lighting us up in Crean's system.

gibb52 · Feb 15, 2017

Illiniguy13 said:
Easily. DJ & AJ have their shortcomings but their games really should translate at this level. A former top 70 player equipped with athleticism & versatility and a shooter who picked up 4 BIG10 offers may very well thrive under some better guidance. I'm glad AJ didn't want to be a Hoosier. I could see him lighting us up in Crean's system.

I hope you are right. Right now I see 2 guys who where massively overrated. Wing players develop quicker than any other position. By the end of your soph year if you can't get on the floor for a bottom dweller team you're prolly not very good. This isn't Duke they're fighting for PT from.

Illiniguy13 · Feb 16, 2017

gibb52 said:
I hope you are right. Right now I see 2 guys who where massively overrated. Wing players develop quicker than any other position. By the end of your soph year if you can't get on the floor for a bottom dweller team you're prolly not very good. This isn't Duke they're fighting for PT from.

I understand the sentiment & can see why some may feel they've been overrated. I wouldn't underestimate how much nonsense rotations & minute distribution can throw off a players groove and confidence, especially a shooter like AJ. The lack of development is on Groce IMO. There is a reason why other coaches gave these guys high major offers!

BananaShampoo · Feb 16, 2017

Illiniguy13 said:
I understand the sentiment & can see why some may feel they've been overrated. I wouldn't underestimate how much nonsense rotations & minute distribution can throw off a players groove and confidence, especially a shooter like AJ. The lack of development is on Groce IMO. There is a reason why other coaches gave these guys high major offers!

I agree. Groce hasn't put these guys in a position to succeed and maximize their abilities. That's on him.

Penn State 83, Illinois 70 POSTGAME

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