Penn State back in the news

#26      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
PaytonHighstep said:
I understand that LOIC doesn't directly relate to criminal activities/law enforcement, but I do believe LOIC discusses ethical standards at an academic/athletic institution.
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You're kind of getting the NCAA enforcement process backwards. It's not that there was a lack of institutional control, and all of these violations resulted. It's, there were all of these violations, therefore a lack of institutional control. Specific rule violations are the wellspring of NCAA enforcement. NCAA schools unfortunately enable serial criminals all the time (See Florida State and Baylor for two recent examples). It's never an NCAA issue.

Jerry Sandusky's crimes are about as horrifying as they come, and that people in positions of power, not just sports radio caller meatballs, are still trying to defend against the institutional failures that took place is a very dark look at the intersection of sports and human psychology. I think the Penn State brand is only beginning to be tarnished, based on the actions of their leaders here and now, not just what happened in the past.

But as a fan of college sports and a fan of due process, I cannot in good conscience support the NCAA being allowed to be a roving morality police, totally unmoored from any defined jurisdiction. That would feel good for this specific issue, but would be bad for everybody in the end.
 
#27      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
IAmChrisFarley said:
If this whole thing comes to light in the 70's when Joe Pa heard about it - is PSU in the big ten?
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Based on how successful Paterno was before and after Sandusky was his DC, I'm guessing probably yes.

Exposing and banishing Sandusky would have only further burnished Paterno's image at the time. That's what makes this all so befuddling.
 
#28      

PaytonHighstep

PaytonHighstep
Downers Grove, IL
PaytonHighstep
Second and Chalmers said:
Based on how successful Paterno was before and after Sandusky was his DC, I'm guessing probably yes.

Exposing and banishing Sandusky would have only further burnished Paterno's image at the time. That's what makes this all so befuddling.
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True, but he is human (I know, tough to comprehend if you read a PSU board) and makes judgement errors. I'd bet it isn't the only one he made.
 
#30      

FeelYourPaign

FeelYourPaign
So Cal
FeelYourPaign
^^^ Wow, not good

Wonder how the NCAA feels about removing the penalties early?
eh, what am I thinking? They feel nothing on that front.
 
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#35      

FeelYourPaign

FeelYourPaign
So Cal
FeelYourPaign
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Please point out the NCAA rule that covers this.
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There is room for debate, but for me it falls under lack of institutional control. When you have people reporting violations and illegal acts within your program and you turn your back . . . without consequences . . . that to me is loss of institutional control. I do not know what the actual rules say, so maybe the title is misleading, but that is why the PSU debacle so greatly offends me. The football program was bigger than the university that the president is today trying to tell everyone is vitally important. It's the hypocrisy of the whole thing.

Clearly, one man's opinion
 
#36      

Deleted member 533939

D
Guest
Deleted member 533939
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Please point out the NCAA rule that covers this.
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How about this one?

2.2.3 Health and safety.
[*]
It is the responsibility of each member institution to protect the health of and provide a safe environment for each of its participating student-athletes.
(Adopted: 1/10/95)

Having a sexual predator coaching kinda violates this rule just a little bit.
 
#37      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
FeelYourPaign said:
There is room for debate, but for me it falls under lack of institutional control. When you have people reporting violations and illegal acts within your program and you turn your back . . . without consequences . . . that to me is loss of institutional control. I do not know what the actual rules say, so maybe the title is misleading, but that is why the PSU debacle so greatly offends me. The football program was bigger than the university that the president is today trying to tell everyone is vitally important. It's the hypocrisy of the whole thing.

Clearly, one man's opinion
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I agree there was a lack of controls there, but again the scope of the NCAA there is regarding compliance with their by-laws and rules. And those are fairly narrowly defined with regards to recruiting, athlete eligibility, etc.

I'm not suggesting punishments weren't greatly justified, of course they were. But not from the NCAA. The leadership at PSU failed badly as did the board of trustees, the state and everyone else who should have stopped this much sooner.

Chief86 said:
How about this one?

2.2.3 Health and safety.
[*]
It is the responsibility of each member institution to protect the health of and provide a safe environment for each of its participating student-athletes.
(Adopted: 1/10/95)

Having a sexual predator coaching kinda violates this rule just a little bit.
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That's a stretch, I don't think any of the victims were student-athletes.

I think there's also one with some vague mentions of ethical behavior, but that's about it.
 
#38      

FeelYourPaign

FeelYourPaign
So Cal
FeelYourPaign
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
I agree there was a lack of controls there, but again the scope of the NCAA there is regarding compliance with their by-laws and rules. And those are fairly narrowly defined with regards to recruiting, athlete eligibility, etc.

I'm not suggesting punishments weren't greatly justified, of course they were. But not from the NCAA. The leadership at PSU failed badly as did the board of trustees, the state and everyone else who should have stopped this much sooner.
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Well, I did admit that I don't feel bound by the NCAA manual definition of institutional control, but rather by the implications of those words to me. So, I don't play fair. I admit it on this one.:D
 
#39      

BexleyIllini

B
BexleyIllini
Chief86 said:
I disagree. The Penn State fans continue to believe that JoePa was a saint. They want to put his statue back up!

Shut it down, shut it all down.
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This is really true. I'm friends with a faculty member of Ohio St who went to PSU as an undergrad. You can't talk to him objectively about Joe Pa. Swears up and down that "he did everything he was supposed to do". PSU grads are absolutely deluded when it comes to this subject.
 
#40      

IlliniCaboose

IlliniCaboose
IlliniCaboose
Lack of institutional control: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
Putting the prestige (or whatever you want to call it) of the football program over the safety of children counts as that in my book.
 
#42      

nicksmith4three

nicksmith4three
nicksmith4three
unimaroon said:
More light on the subject from Deadspin.
http://deadspin.com/former-penn-state-ad-timothy-curley-pleaded-the-fifth-t-1783520917

http://deadspin.com/court-docs-sandusky-victim-told-to-write-apology-lette-1783526182
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aac233e474c4b697e14ccebbbcc8bf647dec24277871ff43c15926f6d0479c93.jpg
 
#43      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
This is just a personal hang-up, but I can't believe Nike is still supplying Penn State with those plain uniforms. Those to me are every bit the representation of Joe Paterno's legacy as the statue of him outside the stadium. What a horrible thing to have your brand associated with. I don't know if they're stuck in a contract they can't get out of (no one knows because of Pennsylvania's ludicrous open records laws) but I would be doing everything I can not to have my logo emblazoned on the physical manifestation of what is now pretty undeniably an era of evil and horror.
 
#44      

Hoppy2105

H
Little Rock, Arkansas
Hoppy2105
How could a person still be proud of PSU football or continue to idolize Joe Paterno? I'd be sick if this happened at Illinois and would be so ashamed.

Our justice system has taken care of what those responsible did that was against U.S. law. The NCAA is there to regulate what an athletic program does within the confines of the members being amateur student athletes.

But there is nobody regulating the middle ground when a school's illegal activity directly impacts a particular athletic program. The NCAA has tried to be the enforcer but is now gun shy and afraid to be sued because this stuff isn't covered in their bylaws.

Someone has to cover this murky middle ground, and between the two, I think it should be the NCAA.
 
#45      

Joel Goodson

Joel Goodson
respect my decision™
Joel Goodson
Hoppy2105 said:
How could a person still be proud of PSU football or continue to idolize Joe Paterno?
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Great question. As a collective fanbase, PSU takes the cake for head buried in sand. Paterno is still deified by the vast majority of their fans.
 
#46      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Hoppy2105 said:
But there is nobody regulating the middle ground when a school's illegal activity directly impacts a particular athletic program. The NCAA has tried to be the enforcer but is now gun shy and afraid to be sued because this stuff isn't covered in their bylaws.

Someone has to cover this murky middle ground, and between the two, I think it should be the NCAA.
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Don't disagree here, but I'm not sure they have the guts to do that. Opens a big box of "what if"s and might be tough to get enough backing to make it happen. Not to mention they don't even have enough enforcement staff to handle their current workload, much less the huge numbers of people they'd need to add to do these kinds of investigations.
 
#47      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Hoppy2105 said:
How could a person still be proud of PSU football or continue to idolize Joe Paterno?
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Being proud of PSU football is a different question, rooting for a football team isn't some complicated moral blood oath, it's just sports. But as much as I understand cognitive dissonance and motivated reasoning and tribal identities and all of that, I can't wrap my head around the continued veneration of Paterno.
 
#48      

IlliniRocketFan

IlliniRocketFan
Rochester, IL
IlliniRocketFan
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
That's a stretch, I don't think any of the victims were student-athletes.

I think there's also one with some vague mentions of ethical behavior, but that's about it.
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Student athletes were out of the sickos age range. In my opinion, when it happens at an institution and a team that carries the NCAA name, all "students" should be able to learn in a safe environment, no mater their age. Anyone at PSU that is occupying a student role should be covered by the NCAA by-laws.
 
#49      

Hoppy2105

H
Little Rock, Arkansas
Hoppy2105
Second and Chalmers said:
Being proud of PSU football is a different question, rooting for a football team isn't some complicated moral blood oath, it's just sports. But as much as I understand cognitive dissonance and motivated reasoning and tribal identities and all of that, I can't wrap my head around the continued veneration of Paterno.
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I agree that rooting for a team is definitely not a blood oath but I'd say to 90% of PSU fans, Joe Paterno IS Penn State football. It will take some time (decades?) before that fan base can separate the two. And I think they have shown that the time is not now. (With how they want his statue back and how they still think he did everything he could for those victims...)
 
#50      

Hoppy2105

H
Little Rock, Arkansas
Hoppy2105
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Don't disagree here, but I'm not sure they have the guts to do that. Opens a big box of "what if"s and might be tough to get enough backing to make it happen. Not to mention they don't even have enough enforcement staff to handle their current workload, much less the huge numbers of people they'd need to add to do these kinds of investigations.
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I think these statements are the key. What we need is some 3rd party, insanely honest, large scale sports firm to become the legal backing for the NCAA and then have all schools agree to allow that firm to do its job.

That is a hurdle we may never see get leaped...