Pregame: Illinois vs Minnesota, Saturday, February 4th, 3:00pm CT, BTN

Both these teams have a lot to lose in this game. Really not much of a positive. Both teams cellar dwellers who were not supposed to be in this position. A win doesn't move the needle, a loss is a nail in the coffin (especially for Groce).

MrOizo said:

When I read this... "Groce: We're looking at the substitution pattern. When to sub. Combos that work together. Lineups to avoid. We're looking at it all."

I nearly spit my coffee out. Why does it seem that we always recognize things before this staff? I honestly didn't feel smarter than Bill Self, Krueger, or Weber and their staffs. Sometimes I would get frustrated, but then I would ultimately agree with most of what they did.

The current staff seems to have a set of rules that they trust that defy reality. Here they are, wondering if those rules actually are working... it's waaaay too late for that, guys. Go ahead and tweak away, but you're shuffling chairs on a sinking ship by this point. You needed to make these moves long ago.

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If you really think Groce is just now looking at different substitutions then you haven't been paying attention. Groce has been trying different things since that terrible Thanksgiving week. He has been asking for certain players to seperate themselves so he could have a set rotation, but that hasn't happened. DJW and AJ have never shown much. Kipper improves the defense but not the offense. Finke can shoot but can't defend. Lucas was good for a couple games but teams figured out he can't shoot.

You guys can complain about Groce's substitutions all you want, but ultimately guys aren't demanding playing time. Ultimately that shows Groce is either not good enough at identifying talent, recuiting that right fit for his sytem, or developing talent.

jrichisamazing said:

If you really think Groce is just now looking at different substitutions then you haven't been paying attention. Groce has been trying different things since that terrible Thanksgiving week. He has been asking for certain players to seperate themselves so he could have a set rotation, but that hasn't happened. DJW and AJ have never shown much. Kipper improves the defense but not the offense. Finke can shoot but can't defend. Lucas was good for a couple games but teams figured out he can't shoot.

You guys can complain about Groce's substitutions all you want, but ultimately guys aren't demanding playing time. Ultimately that shows Groce is either not good enough at identifying talent, recuiting that right fit for his sytem, or developing talent.

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I wouldn't suggest that Groce isn't tinkering and hasn't been tinkering. He's playing a lot of guys in general. It's perplexing that some guys absolutely disappear for full games / multi-game stretches. Certainly, it's possible that he is disciplining them or thinks they won't bring enough value.

The latest word is that defense has improved but that there isn't enough offense. If this is the case, how have we not been seeing more of Finke? To your point, his defense isn't great. But is it worse than Thorne's defense? By enough margin to sit Finke's scoring ability?

Also, Tate and Abrams aren't bringing much on offense and haven't in a long time. To your point, maybe getting more DJW and/or AJ in the lineup wouldn't help. He sees them in practice. I am willing to bet that with more playing time, one of those two could improve our team's offense over Abrams or Tate. They could take some minutes from those two, limiting those guys to spot PG minutes for the most part.

jrichisamazing said:

If you really think Groce is just now looking at different substitutions then you haven't been paying attention. Groce has been trying different things since that terrible Thanksgiving week. He has been asking for certain players to seperate themselves so he could have a set rotation, but that hasn't happened. DJW and AJ have never shown much. Kipper improves the defense but not the offense. Finke can shoot but can't defend. Lucas was good for a couple games but teams figured out he can't shoot.

You guys can complain about Groce's substitutions all you want, but ultimately guys aren't demanding playing time. Ultimately that shows Groce is either not good enough at identifying talent, recuiting that right fit for his sytem, or developing talent.

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This is something I have been thinking about as well. I honestly don't know what the answer is. It is Groce's responsibility to get the team to play to the level of their talent. All of his teams have seemed to gel late, to the point that the season has been squandered. This team is following that same route. The team seems to have more talent than what they are displaying. As others have mentioned, maybe what he is teaching is too complex for the guys he has.

Today's game is pretty much make or break for me. If they can't beat Minny today, I don't see much continued hope. I will continue to watch and cheer for the team but my heart will not be nearly as invested. I have avoided the coaching carousel thread to this point but you may well see me there after today.

jrichisamazing said:

If you really think Groce is just now looking at different substitutions then you haven't been paying attention. Groce has been trying different things since that terrible Thanksgiving week. He has been asking for certain players to seperate themselves so he could have a set rotation, but that hasn't happened. DJW and AJ have never shown much. Kipper improves the defense but not the offense. Finke can shoot but can't defend. Lucas was good for a couple games but teams figured out he can't shoot.

You guys can complain about Groce's substitutions all you want, but ultimately guys aren't demanding playing time. Ultimately that shows Groce is either not good enough at identifying talent, recuiting that right fit for his sytem, or developing talent.

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Yes, this.

Generally when a coach is asked at a press conference "Have you thought about this, or that", they say yes, they have thought about it. I don't attach any meaning to it, or to almost any answer given at a press conference.

Duke will play its ninth different starting line up today. None have been used more than five games. (Per ESPN home page). But, Duke has better players and a better coach.

Overall, I think there are good coaches who have a short bench, and good coaches who have a deeper rotation. Good coaches who let players play and good coaches who pull players after a dumb mistake. Good coaches who are players' coaches and good coaches who are not. These things are fun to talk about, but not necessarily what distinguishes good coaches, or winning programs.

LisaMarie said:

Yes, this.

Generally when a coach is asked at a press conference "Have you thought about this, or that", they say yes, they have thought about it. I don't attach any meaning to it, or to almost any answer given at a press conference.

Duke will play its ninth different starting line up today. None have been used more than five games. (Per ESPN home page). But, Duke has better players and a better coach.

Overall, I think there are good coaches who have a short bench, and good coaches who have a deeper rotation. Good coaches who let players play and good coaches who pull players after a dumb mistake. Good coaches who are players' coaches and good coaches who are not. These things are fun to talk about, but not necessarily what distinguishes good coaches, or winning programs.

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And there are bad coaches that pull players in the middle of a hot streak. Not that we've EVER seen that

illiniclub said:

Jaylon Tate plays his heart out everytime he's in the game as well as at practice. When 'fans' boo our own players, what a picture that paints for visiting recruits. Why would any recruit want to play for a school with a fanbase that turns on individual players when the TEAM does not perform to expectations. If you want to boo and jeer our coach when he's introduced, then have at it if that's your style, but booing when he inserts certain players into the game can only be interpreted as directed at the player. Tate and every player who plays for 'our' team deserve much better.

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Lets hope that the people that boo remember there is a star recruit in the building today.