Pregame: Illinois vs Ohio State, Thursday, February 24th, 8:00pm CT, FS1

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#51      

IlliniKat91

IlliniKat91
Chicago, IL
IlliniKat91
KaufmannForThree said:
This has always seemed juvenile and sophomoric to me. Liddell went to OSU because he likes the football team? Really??? Freshmen from rural Ohio who are undecided majors and drop out after 1 semester choose their schools that way, not future NBA players. Am I the only one who thinks this?
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I don't think it's sophomoric at all. OSU football drew his attention as a kid and made OSU his dream school. When he had a chance to go there, he took it. There's nothing wrong with that.

And let's be honest, at the time we were recruiting him, what did we have to show for ourselves? Bad years under Groce (which is when he likely would have started noticing schools' basketball programs) followed by two rough years under BU as he was being recruited? (Including whatever BS the Smiths might have been spreading in the area?) I don't blame him for not coming here if he thought he'd never get to sniff the tourney in orange and blue.

In fact, saying he went to OSU because he liked the football team might be kinder and more PC than the truth: maybe he didn't come here because he didn't think we'd ever develop a program the way we have.

Regardless, thankfully we did and we're in a damn good position to win against them at home.
 
#52      

DeonThomas

DeonThomas
South Carolina
DeonThomas
InDaAZ said:
Yeah, not RJ - Liddell is even bigger/stronger than Harper. Go with man strength (DMW), and some length (CH) mixed in. Dude’s a tough matchup for anyone.

Liddell is my favorite non-Illini player… still hurts he took his skills to Ohio.
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Liddell in orange and blue = our natty. Perhaps even back-to-back!
 
#53      

DeonThomas

DeonThomas
South Carolina
DeonThomas
Conference Games:
6-1 at home so far
6-3 on the road so far

16-4 overall is definitely within reach! The road game at Michigan will be our stiffest test, but I predict we'll be favored in all 4 remaining regular season games.
 
#54      

Ga65

G
Ga65
DeonThomas said:
Liddell in orange and blue = our natty. Perhaps even back-to-back!
Click to expand...

Big Liddell fan but wonder about the dynamics of him playing with Kofi (and Ayo). Certainly wouldn’t be the first option and would he be getting the same recognition? Or would he be first option and Kofi not getting recognition. He is having great success so he probably made the right decision for him. The proof however will come at the next level and he doesn’t seem to be valued in draft projections.
 
#55      

hoopsfan47

H
hoopsfan47
InDaAZ said:
Yeah, not RJ - Liddell is even bigger/stronger than Harper. Go with man strength (DMW), and some length (CH) mixed in. Dude’s a tough matchup for anyone.

Liddell is my favorite non-Illini player… still hurts he took his skills to Ohio.
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Was blessed to have been able to watch Liddell play in high school in the Bass Pro T of C against elite competition. My first take was that he could not shoot a lick. Now, he is a borderline elite shooter...go figure. But what I took away was that in spite of his lack of scoring compared, for instance, to John Wall, he seemed to do everything else as well or better than most. He was a coaches dream and simply a basketball player who you could count upon to do the right things at the right time. The most impressive aspect at the time was his willingness and ability to battle in the lane against bigger players as well as the quick, aggressive rebounders by being just as quick, physical, and relentless as anyone on the floor. He also seemed more mature and focused as well as above the stupid trash talking crowd. He was certainly no "Michigan Man".

But, he did need to learn to put the ball in the hoop some way other than by lucky 2 foot put backs..........and he did!! I also feel the same as many, other than Cazzie Russell, the biggest Illinois bred loss to the Illini basketball program in history.
 
#56      

hoopsfan47

H
hoopsfan47
Ga65 said:
Big Liddell fan but wonder about the dynamics of him playing with Kofi (and Ayo). Certainly wouldn’t be the first option and would he be getting the same recognition? Or would he be first option and Kofi not getting recognition. He is having great success so he probably made the right decision for him. The proof however will come at the next level and he doesn’t seem to be valued in draft projections.
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Having seen both Kofi and Ayo for three seasons, and Liddell for four, it is head scratching to me how anyone can doubt they would shine together....all three. Not a single one of them is a selfish player in any way and they all love one thing....winning. To play with teammates of that ilk is the dream of any player who burns to be the best...and all three of them have that virtue in spades.

What is baffling to me is that with Liddell, OSU has not been able to attract a supporting cast of similar stars. He has had solid players as teammates but no one like Ayo, Kofi, or even Frazier. What a team that could have been...just think about it and see the facts.
 
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#57      

illini80

illini80
Forgottonia
illini80
I’ll add that Liddell reportedly did not want to be a 5 (somewhat ironic) and we didn’t have one at that point and had missed on the likes of Tshiebwe, Timme, and Okoro. Outside of Ayo, it wasn’t a great time.

And don’t forget the infamous “Still developing a relationship with Underwood” comment very late in his recruiting.
 
#58      

Rocky

Rocky
Rocky
Fighter of the Nightman said:
I did not realize that we were still tied with Purdue in the loss column. Would love to see RU knock them off tomorrow, as I would much rather share a conference title with Rutgers (who's never won one) than with Purdue (who has the most all-time) or Wisconsin (who has 19 vs. our 17). The fact that we are now tied with PU again (at least until tomorrow) and will be tied in the loss column with whoever might pick up any more wins this weekend has me PUMPED UP for this one!

Hoping our disappointingly-blue-and-gray crowds are completely clad in orange and have SFC rockin' when the Buckeyes come to town. We are perfectly capable of winning out, earning a 2-seed and playing in Milwaukee and Chicago. Let's go frickin' do it!
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All I can say is that this BT Tourney is going to be rough, no matter what seed you end up as. Makes your head spin to think of all the scenarios, which is why good coaches never look more than one game ahead. Andy Katz (yeah, he's a Big Ten homer) now has nine teams projected to get bids to NCAA Tourney.
 
#59      

ptgd1

P
ptgd1
IlliniKat91 said:
I don't think it's sophomoric at all. OSU football drew his attention as a kid and made OSU his dream school. When he had a chance to go there, he took it. There's nothing wrong with that.

And let's be honest, at the time we were recruiting him, what did we have to show for ourselves? Bad years under Groce (which is when he likely would have started noticing schools' basketball programs) followed by two rough years under BU as he was being recruited? (Including whatever BS the Smiths might have been spreading in the area?) I don't blame him for not coming here if he thought he'd never get to sniff the tourney in orange and blue.

In fact, saying he went to OSU because he liked the football team might be kinder and more PC than the truth: maybe he didn't come here because he didn't think we'd ever develop a program the way we have.

Regardless, thankfully we did and we're in a damn good position to win against them at home.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the commentary. Let me just pose a hypothetical:

Would Leron Black have been better developed if he'd gone to OSU?

Would he have been a First or Second Round selection on Draft Day or had a better opportunity to play in the NBA?
 
#60      

blackdog

blackdog
Champaign
blackdog
hoopsfan47 said:
Was blessed to have been able to watch Liddell play in high school in the Bass Pro T of C against elite competition. My first take was that he could not shoot a lick. Now, he is a borderline elite shooter...go figure. But what I took away was that in spite of his lack of scoring compared, for instance, to John Wall, he seemed to do everything else as well or better than most. He was a coaches dream and simply a basketball player who you could count upon to do the right things at the right time. The most impressive aspect at the time was his willingness and ability to battle in the lane against bigger players as well as the quick, aggressive rebounders by being just as quick, physical, and relentless as anyone on the floor. He also seemed more mature and focused as well as above the stupid trash talking crowd. He was certainly no "Michigan Man".

But, he did need to learn to put the ball in the hoop some way other than by lucky 2 foot put backs..........and he did!! I also feel the same as many, other than Cazzie Russell, the biggest Illinois bred loss to the Illini basketball program in history.
Click to expand...

Seems like we have our potential Liddell coming in next year with Rogers. Pretty similar size, athleticism, do it all skill set without being a shooter, and relentless tenacity.
 
#61      

altgeld88

altgeld88
Arlington, Virginia
altgeld88
DeonThomas said:
Liddell in orange and blue = our natty. Perhaps even back-to-back!
Click to expand...
IlliniKat91 said:
I don't think it's sophomoric at all. OSU football drew his attention as a kid and made OSU his dream school. When he had a chance to go there, he took it. There's nothing wrong with that.

And let's be honest, at the time we were recruiting him, what did we have to show for ourselves? Bad years under Groce (which is when he likely would have started noticing schools' basketball programs) followed by two rough years under BU as he was being recruited? (Including whatever BS the Smiths might have been spreading in the area?) I don't blame him for not coming here if he thought he'd never get to sniff the tourney in orange and blue.

In fact, saying he went to OSU because he liked the football team might be kinder and more PC than the truth: maybe he didn't come here because he didn't think we'd ever develop a program the way we have.

Regardless, thankfully we did and we're in a damn good position to win against them at home.
Click to expand...
Yes. It was a huge miss for us. I've often reflected the past couple seasons, as I'm sure many of you have, on what a complete juggernaut we'd be with Liddell on our front line.

Also, regarding @IlliniKat91's astute comments above, frankly our program was unattractive when Liddell was recruited. Unglamorous in-state and an afterthought out-of-state. At the time, his rejection didn't surprise me. It took Ayo taking a shine to BU and the program to prime the pump for Chicago and StL talent. I certainly didn't blame EJ. OSU had a better, more stable program and brighter prospects. Illinois was a steeply discounted security, undervalued to those of who who love her, but rationally priced in the market, particularly to a kid who probably had (unrealistic) visions of staying no more than two seasons before heading to the League.

In addition, as she notes, it's difficult to overstate the impression on a basketball recruit that attending an Ohio State football game, regardless of who they're playing, as a 16- or 17-year-old who has never experienced that sort of environment. The gameday and weekend experience there, and placing that young man from Belleville on the floor of that stadium with > 100k fans is a huge recruiting tool, for all of the sports there beyond football. It's one of the all-time great, imposing venues in American sport.
 
#62      

IlliniKat91

IlliniKat91
Chicago, IL
IlliniKat91
ptgd1 said:
I appreciate the commentary. Let me just pose a hypothetical:

Would Leron Black have been better developed if he'd gone to OSU?

Would he have been a First or Second Round selection on Draft Day or had a better opportunity to play in the NBA?
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Possibly? He only caught a year of Brad's staff. Who knows what he could have done if he'd had some quality, consistent training.

Are you suggesting that's what EJ was looking at? If so, I would agree with that argument.

I just think it's unfair to expect 17-19 year old kids to be prescient about a coaching staff's ability when plenty of us on here were ready to pull our hair out those first two years with BU. He went to the school he preferred and has done well there. I don't think it's right to rip the kid's choices in that instance
 
#63      

Rocky

Rocky
Rocky
hoopsfan47 said:
Was blessed to have been able to watch Liddell play in high school in the Bass Pro T of C against elite competition. My first take was that he could not shoot a lick. Now, he is a borderline elite shooter...go figure. But what I took away was that in spite of his lack of scoring compared, for instance, to John Wall, he seemed to do everything else as well or better than most. He was a coaches dream and simply a basketball player who you could count upon to do the right things at the right time. The most impressive aspect at the time was his willingness and ability to battle in the lane against bigger players as well as the quick, aggressive rebounders by being just as quick, physical, and relentless as anyone on the floor. He also seemed more mature and focused as well as above the stupid trash talking crowd. He was certainly no "Michigan Man".

But, he did need to learn to put the ball in the hoop some way other than by lucky 2 foot put backs..........and he did!! I also feel the same as many, other than Cazzie Russell, the biggest Illinois bred loss to the Illini basketball program in history.
Click to expand...
... his willingness and ability to battle in the lane against bigger players as well as the quick, aggressive rebounders by being just as quick, physical, and relentless as anyone on the floor ...

I just got a smile on my face because that gave me visions of Kenny Battle.
 
#64      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
altgeld88 said:
Yes. It was a huge miss for us. I've often reflected the past couple seasons, as I'm sure many of you have, on what a complete juggernaut we'd be with Liddell on our front line.

Also, regarding @IlliniKat91's astute comments above, frankly our program was unattractive when Liddell was recruited. Unglamorous in-state and an afterthought out-of-state. At the time, his rejection didn't surprise me. It took Ayo taking a shine to BU and the program to prime the pump for Chicago and StL talent. I certainly didn't blame EJ. OSU had a better, more stable program and brighter prospects. Illinois was a steeply discounted security, undervalued to those of who who love her, but rationally priced in the market, particularly to a kid who probably had (unrealistic) visions of staying no more than two seasons before heading to the League.

In addition, as she notes, it's difficult to overstate the impression on a basketball recruit that attending an Ohio State football game, regardless of who they're playing, as a 16- or 17-year-old who has never experienced that sort of environment. The gameday and weekend experience there, and placing that young man from Belleville on the floor of that stadium with > 100k fans is a huge recruiting tool, for all of the sports there beyond football. It's one of the all-time great, imposing venues in American sport.
Click to expand...
Charmin Smith and his family had something to do with it also...............JMHO
 
#65      

altgeld88

altgeld88
Arlington, Virginia
altgeld88
IlliniKat91 said:
Possibly? He only caught a year of Brad's staff. Who knows what he could have done if he'd had some quality, consistent training.

Are you suggesting that's what EJ was looking at? If so, I would agree with that argument.

I just think it's unfair to expect 17-19 year old kids to be prescient about a coaching staff's ability when plenty of us on here were ready to pull our hair out those first two years with BU. He went to the school he preferred and has done well there. I don't think it's right to rip the kid's choices in that instance
Click to expand...
The only question I had about EJ's choice was that, although Matta had enjoyed a long run of NCAA appearances, some deep runs, and consistent success, his health was obviously a problem and his final two teams at OSU before he stepped down (the summer IIRC) had tailed off sharply. OSU's basketball program was still sexy but Holtmann was hired at an odd time of year and, although his record at Butler was stellar, he had only been there a brief time.
 
#66      

altgeld88

altgeld88
Arlington, Virginia
altgeld88
hoopsfan47 said:
Was blessed to have been able to watch Liddell play in high school in the Bass Pro T of C against elite competition. My first take was that he could not shoot a lick. Now, he is a borderline elite shooter...go figure. But what I took away was that in spite of his lack of scoring compared, for instance, to John Wall, he seemed to do everything else as well or better than most. He was a coaches dream and simply a basketball player who you could count upon to do the right things at the right time. The most impressive aspect at the time was his willingness and ability to battle in the lane against bigger players as well as the quick, aggressive rebounders by being just as quick, physical, and relentless as anyone on the floor. He also seemed more mature and focused as well as above the stupid trash talking crowd. He was certainly no "Michigan Man".

But, he did need to learn to put the ball in the hoop some way other than by lucky 2 foot put backs..........and he did!! I also feel the same as many, other than Cazzie Russell, the biggest Illinois bred loss to the Illini basketball program in history.
Click to expand...
Props for bringing up Cazzie Russell. Slightly before my time but he was a legend in the conference.
 
#67      

the national

the national
the Front Range
the national
DeonThomas said:
Conference Games:
6-1 at home so far
6-3 on the road so far

16-4 overall is definitely within reach! The road game at Michigan will be our stiffest test, but I predict we'll be favored in all 4 remaining regular season games.
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Matching last years record 16-4 would be awesome. It’s a great goal for these guys.
 
#68      

InDaAZ

InDaAZ
Eugene, Oregon
InDaAZ
illini80 said:
I’ll add that Liddell reportedly did not want to be a 5 (somewhat ironic) and we didn’t have one at that point and had missed on the likes of Tshiebwe, Timme, and Okoro. Outside of Ayo, it wasn’t a great time.

And don’t forget the infamous “Still developing a relationship with Underwood” comment very late in his recruiting.
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Yes, ironic because OSU has played him out of his natural position most of his career there. Even now, Key is thought of as their closest thing to a 5, but it’s a far cry from playing alongside a Kofi.

EJ has both power-4 and stretch-4 abilities in one package. He would have fit so well into what the Illini have put out on the floor the past 2/3 years - the missing piece, really. Look at his stat line this year, for crying out loud:
36F31AB8-803B-469A-8A47-2246AD02009B.jpeg


Best part is he’s a smart, high-character kid - another reason he’d have fit in so well with our team. Ah, the ‘what could have beens’ - the bane of being an Illini fan…
 
#69      

altgeld88

altgeld88
Arlington, Virginia
altgeld88
the national said:
Rutgers can still greatly impact this, if not even be in the hunt themselves. Very impressive run by them.
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Yep, they're right there in the thick of the title chase, certainly having the most momentum of any contender. Their biggest challenge is sustaining that intensity and having to play 3 of their final 5 on the road.

1645373660295.png
 

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#71      

Ga65

G
Ga65
hoopsfan47 said:
Having seen both Kofi and Ayo for three seasons, and Liddell for four, it is head scratching to me how anyone can doubt they would shine together....all three. Not a single one of them is a selfish player in any way and they all love one thing....winning. To play with teammates of that ilk is the dream of any player who burns to be the best...and all three of them have that virtue in spades.

What is baffling to me is that with Liddell, OSU has not been able to attract a supporting cast of similar stars. He has had solid players as teammates but no one like Ayo, Kofi, or even Frazier. What a team that could have been...just think about it and see the facts.
Click to expand...

Wasn’t in any sense implying that they wouldn’t be a greater team. Don’t doubt that for a sec. What I was trying to say is would Liddell be in the running for all American awards or even first team BIG if Kofi and Ayo were on the same team? Maybe if they won a National Championship (which would be a distinct possibility) but don’t think you would have three 20 pt scorers on the same team. I’m sure Liddell has thought about that these last two years. He just appears to be a great kid as well as a great BB player.
 
#72      

ptgd1

P
ptgd1
IlliniKat91 said:
Possibly? He only caught a year of Brad's staff. Who knows what he could have done if he'd had some quality, consistent training.

Are you suggesting that's what EJ was looking at? If so, I would agree with that argument.

I just think it's unfair to expect 17-19 year old kids to be prescient about a coaching staff's ability when plenty of us on here were ready to pull our hair out those first two years with BU. He went to the school he preferred and has done well there. I don't think it's right to rip the kid's choices in that instance
Click to expand...
I wasn't ripping Liddell or anyone for that matter. I was more interested in comments about weather Leron would have developed better at OSU. Frankly, I'm skeptical that it would make any difference.

For a long time I've questioned the statements by many who seem to think a player can develop better under Coach A or Coach B. I think the system a coach has set up with his program goes more into development than a particular coach, though I will say not all coaches are equal in coaching skills. But I think the whole player development narrative is a strawman and rarely fits into reality.

I hold more to the adage that players - play. But then there is also the problem of depth on Team A compared to Team B or the personnel on each said team. For instance, I think it's a great disservice to DaMonte to be forced into a situation where he always has to guard taller, and in many cases, much taller players. I remember an Illini player from many years ago, Bryant Notree, who was highly rated coming out of HS but forced to play out of position. It happens on teams not fully loaded with talent. Liddell may have looked at opportunities such as that for his reason to choose OSU.

But I'm sure there are posters who can explain that. That's why I brought it up.
 
#73      

IlliniKat91

IlliniKat91
Chicago, IL
IlliniKat91
ptgd1 said:
I wasn't ripping Liddell or anyone for that matter. I was more interested in comments about weather Leron would have developed better at OSU. Frankly, I'm skeptical that it would make any difference.

For a long time I've questioned the statements by many who seem to think a player can develop better under Coach A or Coach B. I think the system a coach has set up with his program goes more into development than a particular coach, though I will say not all coaches are equal in coaching skills. But I think the whole player development narrative is a strawman and rarely fits into reality.

I hold more to the adage that players - play. But then there is also the problem of depth on Team A compared to Team B or the personnel on each said team. For instance, I think it's a great disservice to DaMonte to be forced into a situation where he always has to guard taller, and in many cases, much taller players. I remember an Illini player from many years ago, Bryant Notree, who was highly rated coming out of HS but forced to play out of position. It happens on teams not fully loaded with talent. Liddell may have looked at opportunities such as that for his reason to choose OSU.

But I'm sure there are posters who can explain that. That's why I brought it up.
Click to expand...

My closing line was a nod to the original post I responded too. I didn't think you were ripping him. I'm sorry that wasn't clearer.

You raise a great point about playing out of position. As @illini80 said, he didn't want to be a 5 coming out of high school. Whether his opinion changed or he liked OSU enough to not care would be speculation on my part. Either way, your point is well taken.
 
#74      

GrayGhost77

GrayGhost77
Centennial, CO
GrayGhost77
hoopsfan47 said:
Was blessed to have been able to watch Liddell play in high school in the Bass Pro T of C against elite competition. My first take was that he could not shoot a lick. Now, he is a borderline elite shooter...go figure. But what I took away was that in spite of his lack of scoring compared, for instance, to John Wall, he seemed to do everything else as well or better than most. He was a coaches dream and simply a basketball player who you could count upon to do the right things at the right time. The most impressive aspect at the time was his willingness and ability to battle in the lane against bigger players as well as the quick, aggressive rebounders by being just as quick, physical, and relentless as anyone on the floor. He also seemed more mature and focused as well as above the stupid trash talking crowd. He was certainly no "Michigan Man".

But, he did need to learn to put the ball in the hoop some way other than by lucky 2 foot put backs..........and he did!! I also feel the same as many, other than Cazzie Russell, the biggest Illinois bred loss to the Illini basketball program in history.
Click to expand...
Isiah Thomas? Quinn Buckner? Iguodala? Derrick Rose? Shaun Livingston?
 
#75      

altgeld88

altgeld88
Arlington, Virginia
altgeld88
ptgd1 said:
I wasn't ripping Liddell or anyone for that matter. I was more interested in comments about weather Leron would have developed better at OSU. Frankly, I'm skeptical that it would make any difference.

For a long time I've questioned the statements by many who seem to think a player can develop better under Coach A or Coach B. I think the system a coach has set up with his program goes more into development than a particular coach, though I will say not all coaches are equal in coaching skills. But I think the whole player development narrative is a strawman and rarely fits into reality.

I hold more to the adage that players - play. But then there is also the problem of depth on Team A compared to Team B or the personnel on each said team. For instance, I think it's a great disservice to DaMonte to be forced into a situation where he always has to guard taller, and in many cases, much taller players. I remember an Illini player from many years ago, Bryant Notree, who was highly rated coming out of HS but forced to play out of position. It happens on teams not fully loaded with talent. Liddell may have looked at opportunities such as that for his reason to choose OSU.

But I'm sure there are posters who can explain that. That's why I brought it up.
Click to expand...
Regarding player development, in college it has always seemed to me that it hinges on the coachability and work ethic of the player, which in turn defines so much about a player's success in D-1. I'm reminded of an interview I saw with Doug Altenberger years ago. He was speaking of his redshirt senior season in (IIRC) 86-'87. Kenny Battle had transferred form NIU that season. Doug was noting that, even having played for the Illini for several seasons, he had never seen a player of such intensity in practice as Battle. His competitiveness in practice was apparently insane and, after the other players got over the initial shock of it, was infectious. After I heard that I thought that probably the marginal X-factor in the '88-'89 squad was that sort of fire day in and day out in practice, having spread to his teammates.

Some players are more coachable than others, of course. Some players work harder, demand more of themselves and their teammates, run suicides after a double-digit win over Miznoz (as I recall Dee did, goading his teammates into doing so in a contest.) When I see a guy, however, who hasn't progressed much over 2-3 seasons, but who was a prized recruit, I rarely assume it's a coaching deficiency.

Am interested in what others (particularly those who have played at this level) have to say on the subject.
 
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