Hopefully enough run support for the bullpen
St Louis Cardinals 2023
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I was hoping not for either team. Over/Under runs seemed low at 9.5 and hammered the Over with Matz and a newbie on the mound for Tigers. Time for Cards to end the streak
Goldy doing us a solid today and increasing his trade value.
dgcrow
- Kelso, WA
Interesting article about Contreras (assuming it hasn't already been posted):
chicago.suntimes.com
Cubs react to Willson Contreras being relieved of catching duties by Cardinals
“There are some guys who have been there a really long time working with Yadi [Molina],” manager David Ross said. “Going about things differently sometimes doesn’t go smoothly.”
chicago.suntimes.com
I'd be shocked if he gets traded. He's not a UFA until after next season.
Exactly. The only way the Cardinals should ever trade him is if they are wanting a full rebuild beyond this season. I don't see that in the Cards....
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Cardinals hope sixth-inning turnaround keyed by Brendan Donovan's homer provides momentum
A seesaw sixth inning and a clutch home run by Brendan Donovan snapped the Cardinals' losing streak with a 12-6 win over the Tigers at Busch Stadium.
Paul Goldschmidt's 3-homer game helps Cardinals snap losing streak, avoid series sweep
Cardinals snap eight-game losing slide behind Paul Goldschmidt's three-homer game vs. Detroit Tigers at Busch Stadium.
Hochman: ‘I'm trying to fix it.’ An honest Nolan Arenado is mired in mediocrity.
For how much Nolan Arenado's excellence was part of the Cardinals winning last year, that’s how much his dormant start has been part of losing this season.
Schildt
Here's our likely rotation for 2024 as it stands right now:Exactly. The only way the Cardinals should ever trade him is if they are wanting a full rebuild beyond this season. I don't see that in the Cards....
Mikolas
Matz
Hudson
Woodford
Liberatore
That rotation doesn't compete unless we sign 3 good starting pitchers (or trade really good prospects we like for them). When's the last DeWitt time spent $25MM/yr on one pitcher, let alone three? Barring a complete change in ownership's philosophy, it's not happening. I'd love to build a team to compete around Goldy, but if we're not going to spend $75-100MM on pitching and go out and sign Nola and Urias and Giolito (or something thereabouts) to do that this offseason, then we're better off trading Goldy so we can better compete in 2025 and beyond. If we can nab some starting pitching prospects with better strikeout stuff who'll be ready by 2025/2026, that's potentially a cost effective solution to the pitching problem. We can obviously wait until next trade deadline, but his trade value is never going to be higher than it will this deadline.
Schildt was better than Marmol but he was not good. We can do better.
We have no idea what the roster will look like next year. Speculating what the starting pitching is next year is fun but a ton will change before than. Interested to see who they move this season first.
Goldy has a ton of trade value but we also have no offense if he is traded. He is the type of guy and age level that the Cardinals should offer 1 year extensions to after next season. If we are going for a bigger rebuild than they should trade Goldy, otherwise looking to compete next year than not at all.
Why should DeWitt spend big money when MO keeps messing up? Exactly look at the starting pitching we have this year alone. He is forking big money out to Mikolas, Matz, etc and can't get that right. He has had trouble developing young starting pitchers that are effective for this team. I am not calling for anyone to be fired but if they decide to fire someone it better be Mo/Marmol together and not just one of them. People keep calling for the owner to spend more...the idea is to spend wisely not always the most money.
Dee_4_Three_83
- Mahomet, IL
From what I understand, Mo is most likely going to be gone at the conclusion of the Roger Dean Stadium upgrade project. I also am not calling for them to be gone. We have seen an Atlanta Braves '90s-'00s type run with having competitive clubs every year, I would not be surprised to see us end over .500 again this year, maybe better depending on what roster moves get made in the next couple months. The Contreras move signals to me that they are not giving up on this season and want the pitching staff to start believing in the pitch selections again. Kizner could surprise us with his bat (he had a great day yesterday), but a focus on defense and pitching could be the recipe for better baseball this summer. It's an uphill battle for sure, but I am hopeful considering how competitive we have been in all of the losses.
Then he should hire someone else for that job. "I don't trust my FO to spend money" is not an excuse when you just extended that FO. Hire someone you trust and spend money to compete.
And he's not forking out big money to Mikolas or Matz. Mikolas is making $18.75MM this season and $16MM each the next two. Matz is making $11MM/yr. How much does an ace make on the open market?
Max Scherzer - 3yr/$130MM ($43.3MM AAV)
Justin Verlander - 2yr/$86.7MM ($43.3MM AAV)
Gerrit Cole - 9yr/$324MM ($36MM AAV)
Jacob DeGrom - 5yr/185MM ($37MM AAV)
Chris Sale - 5yr/145MM ($29MM AAV)
Carlos Rodon - 6yr/$162MM ($27MM AAV)
Even Taijuan Walker who's a very average MLB starter, got $72MM/4yrs this past offseason ($18MM AAV).
I would love to hear an actual proposal as to how this team contends in 2024 without increasing budget or trading anything of value.
Look at the production you are getting out of your starting pitchers. DeWitt will spend money when it is justified. They have overspent on Yadi/Wainwright for years out of respect for what they have done for this club. Cardinals are not afraid to spend money when the player is good. We are loaded with a bunch of average or young players.Then he should hire someone else for that job. "I don't trust my FO to spend money" is not an excuse when you just extended that FO. Hire someone you trust and spend money to compete.
And he's not forking out big money to Mikolas or Matz. Mikolas is making $18.75MM this season and $16MM each the next two. Matz is making $11MM/yr. How much does an ace make on the open market?
Max Scherzer - 3yr/$130MM ($43.3MM AAV)
Justin Verlander - 2yr/$86.7MM ($43.3MM AAV)
Gerrit Cole - 9yr/$324MM ($36MM AAV)
Jacob DeGrom - 5yr/185MM ($37MM AAV)
Chris Sale - 5yr/145MM ($29MM AAV)
Carlos Rodon - 6yr/$162MM ($27MM AAV)
Even Taijuan Walker who's a very average MLB starter, got $72MM/4yrs this past offseason ($18MM AAV).
I would love to hear an actual proposal as to how this team contends in 2024 without increasing budget or trading anything of value.
You are mentioning starting pitching prices where majority of these guys just got deals. The new wave of paying the price is new and will catch up to the Cardinals. Are Mikolas or Matz close to ace price or production? My exact point is we are wasting money paying guys like this when you could get an ace and bring up Liberatore for example. The moves they make baffle me.
As long as the Cardinals have Arenado/Goldy they have pieces for 2024. The two most talented players on this roster were proven guys looking towards HOF careers when we landed them. Mo has struggled with evaluating talent through FA, trades, drafting, etc.
The trade deadline hasn't even happened for this year yet. Me speculating on what they will do for next year is obsolete at this time. There will be moves this season and there need to be.
Evaluating talent is a huge part of the game.
Giving Contreras that 5 year/$87.5 million contract looks ok if he can catch. Him playing DH does not look good. Mo doesn't have an impressive FA track record of giving out multi year contracts lately. Contreras, Matz, Miller, Cecil, Fowler, Leake, etc. Even if the Cardinals add payroll....not like I have total faith in Mo to get the right player.
Exactly....hire someone who can spend the money wisely like I stated before lol
Braves won it a few years ago with almost the exact same payroll....the roster construction not so much
Yes they are. Dexter Fowler was the closest we've come to a big free agent signing in recent memory. There were a few bigger contracts given out that year, and looking back it was a pretty meh free agent class. And what people forget, FWIW, is Fowler was actually good his first season. Not so much for the remainder of that deal sadly. That's the biggest free agent deal the Cards have made in the last decade (before Contreras). $82 mil over 5 years. Contreras deal is in the same ballpark. There are guys signing $350 million deals now. Ohtani probably gets a half billion dollars this offseason.
You need 5 pitchers to make a rotation, plus some in reserve for injuries. Mikolas and Matz are (relatively) cheap options tailored to a cheap owner. If you pool that money to get one Ace, even with Libby you need to find 3-5 other guys. So far there hasn't been any indication DeWitt would be ok with that. If he is, I'm sure he can give Mo a heads up.
Tell that to the Angels who haven't managed to win with two generational players.
We develop more positional player talent than almost anyone. We don't develop pitchers. Lots of teams have similar problems. Some of them solve it with money. Others by trading an area of strength (infield positonal talent would be ours) for a positon of weakness. Maybe we could try it!
Yes, but we're fans. Isn't speculation on this stuff part of the fun?
The problem is he's never really had the budgetary freedom to do so. And if DeWitt doesn't trust him to do so, he's also the one person in the world who can do something about it. It's not a good excuse.
They were the #10 payroll in the MLB at the time. #10 payroll now spends $192 million. Our payroll is $32 million less than that.Exactly....hire someone who can spend the money wisely like I stated before lol
Braves won it a few years ago with almost the exact same payroll....the roster construction not so much
Exactly my point man. Fowler was good for a year or so out of a 5 year deal. Contreras just signed a 5 year deal and management doesn't know where he should play after a month into the season.
The pitching markup just went up in the last season or two now. Not like it has been that way for 5-10 years. Top payroll teams were pushing $100M not that long ago. Exactly my point again....need a balance of FA pitching and developed players in your system. Never going to be a contender every year if purchasing 4-5 FA pitchers.
Go look at the records with the Cardinals and Angels with both generational players on the roster. Cardinals have been contenders until this season
Yeah....difference between us and say the Braves are they blend it all together. You can trade and get FA but you have to draft as well. Carlos Martinez/Flaherty/Hudson are biggest success stories in the past 15 seasons that have played for us? Don't have to develop an ace but man they have to develop 2-3 other pitchers in the rotation than. Had a lot of guys they thought were studs who had injuries or just never panned out.
Cardinals will be making moves this season. I would be surprised if some guys aren't moved which change things up. Maybe we can be more constructive.....
So the Wainwright money comes off the books
What do Cardinals do with Matz this year and in future? Best case a #4-5 starter who gives you 4-5 innings typically.
DeJong has been a nice surprise so far. If a team needs a SS in a pinch or someone off the bench he is suitable. Cardinals move him for small return? Otherwise buying him out after this season so the team option for $12M doesn't kick in next season. Or would Cardinals move Edman, keep DeJong and bring up Winn?
If Contreras does DH more that moves Gorman to playing 2B more. Would anyone get traded from the platoon? Would Donovan see more time in OF? Which OF is getting moved?
That has nothing to do with the year they won it. They were #10, we were #11 and like 500k-$1M difference at most. That was what I stated, not years later
Yes and it's been my contention from the start that to compete we should increase payroll by 30-40 million...which would put us at around that #10 spot.
Been in the playoffs for number of years
Have had winning record for 15 years straight
Both of those could come to an end this year but we compete with our payroll. Cardinals limp in more times than not with their payroll....I do understand what you are saying though.
Right. Mistakes have been made. But if it were easy to put together a better team with $160 million than your competitiors can put together with $200-300 million...well nobody would spend more than $160 million.
Yes, and we've failed to keep up. That's my point. Our payroll has stayed the same while everyone else's has gone up. Can't compete like that.
I think we have a fundamental difference in opinion in what it means to be a contender. I don't think we've put together a team that had a realistic shot at winning the world series in 6 or 7 years last decade. Since 2014 we've won just 1 playoff series. Since 2019 we've won just one playoff game. I think we compete for the division, sure. But if the goal is the World Series, we're not competitive and haven't been in some time.
There's also an inconsistency here. You seem to dislike Mo and all his decisions, but think he's put together good, competitive teams?
Problem is, Cardinals don’t have much to trade in expiring contracts. Montgomery would give them a couple mid-tier prospects - see for example the Syndergaard trade last year. Nobody else on an expiring contract will net anything worthwhile and certainly nothing sure to contribute next year.
Goldschmidt is the main asset the Cardinals have that would net a major asset that could contribute as soon as next year. You’d look at trading Goldschmidt for a young starting pitcher with 4+ years of control and then sign a FA 1B like Rhys Hoskins for less than Goldschmidt was scheduled to make.
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