St Louis Cardinals 2023

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#751      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
the national said:
Unfortunately, many of these seem to have been walk-offs (minus the 1-0 vs. the Dodgers - Kershaw was a beast that day). For walk-offs, what are the bats to do? This all starts and finishes with the pitching. I'm not sure if Contreras behind the plate is contributing to the issues with his pitch calls, but the guys have to perform better.
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100%

Contreras is a good catcher that is much better offensively. Fans got spoiled with Yadi and rightfully so because he mastered calling a game.

Pitching definitely needs to pick it up. Keeping Matz as a starter makes no sense. They need to bring up Liberatore and see how he performs. Fill him in the other lefty spot and have his audition for this year and next now. Makes sense in two ways....fill the lefty spot for Matz and also Montgomery is a FA after this season. My hope is Liberatore performs and re-sign Montgomery. If we stay where we are later on than Montgomery likely will be traded or sign for more money in FA elsewhere.
 
#752      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
the national said:
I'm not sure if Contreras behind the plate is contributing to the issues with his pitch calls, but the guys have to perform better.
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It kind of goes hand and hand but Contreras was option 2 for the Cardinals. Cardinals really thought they were going to land Sean Murphy in trade and use that money for another starting pitcher. Athletics held out for more and Braves offered them a nice package.
 
#753      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
GILL-INOIS said:
It kind of goes hand and hand but Contreras was option 2 for the Cardinals. Cardinals really thought they were going to land Sean Murphy in trade and use that money for another starting pitcher. Athletics held out for more and Braves offered them a nice package.
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I don't believe we were ever really close to landing Murphy. Mo is clearly gun shy about trading good prospects after the Ozuna trade. It was obvious that, at a minimum, Murphy was going to have to include of Gorman's trade value, if not someone of the top tier, Walker/Winn caliber.

I don't know if that trade would've been worth it or not. Gorman is one of the few players who's actually been good for us, so probably not. We probably did the right thing signing Contreras instead (though I do think it's played a part in our pitching woes as he just isn't good at calling a game). Just pointing out that this team is now reluctant to trade highly ranked prospects away, and also reluctant to pay top free agents, which means avenues to address needs are pretty limited.

At this point we aren't doing anything in 2023. The club needs to have a serious discussion about what our actual contention window will be and focus efforts there. If we can't realistically compete in 2024, we need to shop some of our bigger names. If we're not going to build a championship around Goldy, we need to use Goldy to try and build a championship around Walker.
 
#754      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
I don't believe we were ever really close to landing Murphy. Mo is clearly gun shy about trading good prospects after the Ozuna trade. It was obvious that, at a minimum, Murphy was going to have to include of Gorman's trade value, if not someone of the top tier, Walker/Winn caliber.
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Ding! Ding! Ding!

Murphy was hands down the first choice for the next catcher. Murphy was a hot commodity and had a few years of arbitration left that added his trade value. Braves just decided to lock him up in contract. Mo is easy to read...lock up Murphy and use the money they gave to Contreras to a starting pitcher.
 
#755      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
Derrick Goold said the Athletics wanted Nootbaar, Donovan and likely Graceffo for Murphy. Mo thought that was too much. The Contreras signing was necessary after that fell apart.
 
#756      

TheGMan

TheGMan
TheGMan
GILL-INOIS said:
Agree. Both sides have messed up

DeWitt gave Mo some room to pick up salary in OF Ozuna years ago and increase payroll. We didn't know what he was giving up but the ace we are looking for has been traded. Literally gave up not one, but TWO #1 pitchers in Alcantara and Gallen in their primes. This trade is haunting us years later.

DeWitt should add salary but Mo has made some seriously questionable moves
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While I don't disagree that Mo has some blame, my recollection is that neither of them were highly touted prospects at the time of the trade. Certainly had shown some promise, but I doubt anyone (even the Marlins) would have expected both to pan out to be top level aces.
 
#757      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
TheGMan said:
While I don't disagree that Mo has some blame, my recollection is that neither of them were highly touted prospects at the time of the trade. Certainly had shown some promise, but I doubt anyone (even the Marlins) would have expected both to pan out to be top level aces.
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That is why they are prospects....you never know until they make it to MLB level and show up. Cardinals touted the next big things like JD Drew, Rasmus, etc for years. Sometimes it works out, sometimes they develop and also get traded. The big discussion has been starting pitching and giving some background about where our top guys went. Signing free agents are nice, so is having team control of #1 pitchers for many years.

Cardinals traded those two pitchers and two more guys who didn't develop in that trade to the Marlins. Marlins kept Alcantara (won CY Young) and traded Gallen to Arizona for Jazz Chisholm.
 
#758      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
TheGMan said:
While I don't disagree that Mo has some blame, my recollection is that neither of them were highly touted prospects at the time of the trade. Certainly had shown some promise, but I doubt anyone (even the Marlins) would have expected both to pan out to be top level aces.
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100% right. MLB Pipeline 2017 rankings had Alcantara and thr Cards' #6 prospect and Gallen as our #24 prospect. Neither was top 100 league wide. Alex Reyes and Luke Weaver were both rated higher than Alcantara.

Hindsight is 20/20. At the time we had a glaring need in the OF and Ozuna was coming off 2 straight all-star appearances and a gold glove (also silver slugger and #15 in MVP voting). I also don't think it's a given that Alcantara or Gallen ends up the same player if they stay in our system. So many unknowns with prospects.
 
#759      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
100% right. MLB Pipeline 2017 rankings had Alcantara and thr Cards' #6 prospect and Gallen as our #24 prospect. Neither was top 100 league wide. Alex Reyes and Luke Weaver were both rated higher than Alcantara.

Hindsight is 20/20. At the time we had a glaring need in the OF and Ozuna was coming off 2 straight all-star appearances and a gold glove (also silver slugger and #15 in MVP voting). I also don't think it's a given that Alcantara or Gallen ends up the same player if they stay in our system. So many unknowns with prospects.
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No doubt....you never know with prospects. Mo has picked up a few guys after a career year and it didn't work out. Throw in Ozuna's arm wasn't 100% when we got him. His arm speed went down like 10-13 MPH and was ranked as one of the slowest. Seemed like an ok trade at the time, set us back years later. Price you pay when dealing with prospects.

Rankings are just that, rankings. Those were also rankings when they were 21-22 years old and pitchers still develop or not at that time.


Just to all...who are the most successful starting pitchers the Cardinals have developed since Wainwright that played for us for multiple seasons? It won't be a long list. Am aware we didn't draft Wainwright but we developed him.
 
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#760      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
GILL-INOIS said:
No doubt....you never know with prospects. Mo has picked up a few guys after a career year and it didn't work out. Throw in Ozuna's arm wasn't 100% when we got him. His arm speed went down like 10-13 MPH and was ranked as one of the slowest. Seemed like an ok trade at the time, set us back years later. Price you pay when dealing with prospects.

Rankings are just that, rankings. Those were also rankings when they were 21-22 years old and pitchers still develop or not at that time.


Just to all...who are the most successful starting pitchers the Cardinals have developed since Wainwright that played for us for multiple seasons? It won't be a long list. Am aware we didn't draft Wainwright but we developed him.
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Even with Waino, we just kinda sorta developed him. He was a 1st round pick and spent 4 years in the Braves system before we got him, and 2 years in our system before he debuted. Waino was already considered a top prospect when we got him. Baseball America had him ranked as the #18 prospect in baseball, and top prospect in the Braves system, in their 2003 rankings. Don't think the Cards can fairly take the lion's share of the credit.
 
#761      

the national

the national
the Front Range
the national
A part of me hates to admit this but, I really wanted us to get a big bopper and missed. Ozuna was an attractive option. I liked it at the time. We wanted to capitalize on all the young talent and add some power. He seems like a hand-in-glove option. I was so disappointed after the 1st season but hopeful it would work out long term. What a waste.
 
#763      

socalini

socalini
So Cali
socalini
Would be nice to get a win tonight to get the losing-the-first-game-of-every-series monkey off our back. A small step in the right direction....
 
#764      

GILL-INOIS

G
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
Even with Waino, we just kinda sorta developed him. He was a 1st round pick and spent 4 years in the Braves system before we got him, and 2 years in our system before he debuted. Waino was already considered a top prospect when we got him. Baseball America had him ranked as the #18 prospect in baseball, and top prospect in the Braves system, in their 2003 rankings. Don't think the Cards can fairly take the lion's share of the credit
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Exactly my point with the question I had attached. We have a problem if we can't develop long term successful starting pitchers and keep them on this team. The list is very, very short since Wainwright came to this team 20 years ago :ROFLMAO: Fans complain about spending money....not developing much starting pitcher plays a huge part in overpaying for FA pitching or having to trade prospects for some.
 
#766      

jmwillini

J
Tolono, IL
jmwillini
Hate to say it, but...
Feeling Cool Gene Wilder GIF by Laff
 
#767      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
Another game , another 2 strike homer given up by Cardinals pitching....................
 
#769      

Se Il Illini

Se Il Illini
Se Il Illini
Knee brace said:
Another hicks blown lead…Marmol with another terrible decision. Is it time to make a change yet? I say it’s time
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Who should the management and ownership, who hired and fired Mike Matheny, who hired and fired Mike Schildt, and hired Ollie Marmol, hire after these same people fire Ollie Marmol?
 
#770      

dgcrow

dgcrow
Kelso, WA
dgcrow
Se Il Illini said:
Who should the management and ownership, who hired and fired Mike Matheny, who hired and fired Mike Schildt, and hired Ollie Marmol, hire after these same people fire Ollie Marmol?
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Joe Madden (who's 69 years old)? Joe Girardi (58, born in Peoria, played one year for the Cardinals)? Somebody else?
 
#771      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
www.stltoday.com

Quick Hits: A bullpen blunder, a bad bounce put Cardinals at boiling point with seventh straight loss

Jordan Montgomery was cruising after six innings but did not pitch the seventh in a 5-4 loss to Detroit that ended with unlucky bounce and a flurry of ejections.
www.stltoday.com www.stltoday.com

www.stltoday.com

BenFred: Riding the Tyler O'Neill roller coaster must be growing tiresome for Cardinals

Will Alec Burleson and/or Juan Yepez capitalize on their refreshed chances?
www.stltoday.com www.stltoday.com

www.stltoday.com

Adam Wainwright hopes to provide a lift on the field and in the clubhouse: Cardinals Extra

Adam Wainwright discussed the Cardinals recent struggles as he gets set to return from the injured list and make his season debut.
www.stltoday.com www.stltoday.com
 
#773      

Dee_4_Three_83

Dee_4_Three_83
Mahomet, IL
Dee_4_Three_83
That was a pretty tough luck loss last night. In the 7th, we had Arenado on 1st with Carlson up. Carlson watched ball 4 get called a strike, hits into DP the next pitch, then the next 2 guys hit solid singles. Then in the 8th, Noot hits a game tying double that bounces over the fence, so the 5th run had to go back to 3rd. This is the kind of stuff that has been happening all season long.

There have been very few games where they haven't been in the game for a majority of the game. Something just needs to happen to release the pressure and I feel like they could just get on a roll. Getting Waino back could help for sure.

Great comebacks can't happen unless you have terrible starts, so I say we start a new streak today.
 
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