St Louis Cardinals 2023

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#601      
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
Every team has bad contracts on the books.

Cardinals have historically not been the biggest spenders but have typically been in the second tier. And a lot of those years the 1st tier consisted of only the Yankees.

The trendline is bad. #6 in 2019. #10 in 2020. #11 in 2021, #13 in 2022, #16 in 2023. This year we are below league average in payroll. When's the last time that happened? We're not in the second tier anymore. That's where teams like the Braves, Astros and Blue Jays reside. Those teams are spending $30-40MM more than us.

This season is the furthest from the top spenders the Cardinals have been in since probably the 90s. Those were some bad Cardinals teams in the 90s. That's when I became a fan. Those teams were so bad back then that they'd give away tickets to kids through their local library for reading books over the summer. That's how I went to my first dozen or so Cards games. DeWitt bought the team around that time and started investing. It was great. Payroll went up from the low 20s to mid teens of the early 90s to eventually consistently in that "contenders who aren't the Yankees" tier. Then DeWitt won a couple WS titles and seemed to lose that fire. Now he's all about maximizing profit.
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Look at what the payroll was when we were #6 in 2019 and #16 this season. We are spending around the same amount of money, other teams have entered the equation.

Of course every team has bad contracts on the books...was just a comment. Though if you look at some of the years some of the bad contracts for the Cardinals were also top 5 paid on our team and not contributing.

DeWitt built this team into a winner like you said. You joined the party late...Cardinals had one of the worst farm systems for years. It took time to develop that back up which it has been for many years. Cardinals try to blend free agents/trades with drafted talent. All owners want to maximize profit, ton of teams don't make their team competitive.

Cardinals are not afraid to spend money....they just don't spend it efficiently at times. Same goes with trading players/prospects away. Arozarena, Garcia, Gallen, Alcantara, etc. Some of those moves hurt a team like ours bad.
 
#603      
the juiceman cometh
GILL-INOIS said:
Look at what the payroll was when we were #6 in 2019 and #16 this season. We are spending around the same amount of money, other teams have entered the equation.

Of course every team has bad contracts on the books...was just a comment. Though if you look at some of the years some of the bad contracts for the Cardinals were also top 5 paid on our team and not contributing.

DeWitt built this team into a winner like you said. You joined the party late...Cardinals had one of the worst farm systems for years. It took time to develop that back up which it has been for many years. Cardinals try to blend free agents/trades with drafted talent. All owners want to maximize profit, ton of teams don't make their team competitive.

Cardinals are not afraid to spend money....they just don't spend it efficiently at times. Same goes with trading players/prospects away. Arozarena, Garcia, Gallen, Alcantara, etc. Some of those moves hurt a team like ours bad.
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Do you think half the league is operating at a loss?

Revenues have gone up and salaries have gone up to match. They've just gone up slower for the Cardinals than other teams. The fact that we're "spending around the same amount of money" is precisely the problem. When the rest of the league is spending 50-100% more, "spending the same amount" means spending significantly less, in relative terms.

There's no excuse for a team that had the second highest attendance in all of baseball to drop down to 16th in payroll. It has nothing to do with bad contracts. We actually have a lot more guys who make less than they would on the open market, than guys who are overpaid. Even Arenado makes less than he could...just look at the deal Machado got.

The Braves are the model front office. They develop well and they've had a good track record on trades. They also spend about $30-40MM more than us on an annual basis. How can we be expected to compete against a team that develops talent as well or better than us, gets more out of trades than us, and has a more generous budget to fill needs in free agency? We can't. And I genuinely don't believe DeWitt is trying to, because he's determined that profits are better spending less and hoping to eke into the playoffs than spending more and competing for a World Series.

The Cards are 100% afraid to spend money. They won't sign a pitcher to a long term contract because of the risk. That's a fact. But that's the cost of getting a true ace on the open market. It's a risk other teams who want to compete take on a regular basis. That's why bumping up the budget to at least top 10 is so important. It allows a team to take a reasonable risk on a big signing.
 
#604      
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
Do you think half the league is operating at a loss?

Revenues have gone up and salaries have gone up to match. They've just gone up slower for the Cardinals than other teams. The fact that we're "spending around the same amount of money" is precisely the problem. When the rest of the league is spending 50-100% more, "spending the same amount" means spending significantly less, in relative terms.

There's no excuse for a team that had the second highest attendance in all of baseball to drop down to 16th in payroll. It has nothing to do with bad contracts. We actually have a lot more guys who make less than they would on the open market, than guys who are overpaid. Even Arenado makes less than he could...just look at the deal Machado got.

The Braves are the model front office. They develop well and they've had a good track record on trades. They also spend about $30-40MM more than us on an annual basis. How can we be expected to compete against a team that develops talent as well or better than us, gets more out of trades than us, and has a more generous budget to fill needs in free agency? We can't. And I genuinely don't believe DeWitt is trying to, because he's determined that profits are better spending less and hoping to eke into the playoffs than spending more and competing for a World Series.

The Cards are 100% afraid to spend money. They won't sign a pitcher to a long term contract because of the risk. That's a fact. But that's the cost of getting a true ace on the open market. It's a risk other teams who want to compete take on a regular basis. That's why bumping up the budget to at least top 10 is so important. It allows a team to take a reasonable risk on a big signing.
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You sound like an angry Cardinals fan to me, try living in the area :ROFLMAO:


No owner in professional sports is losing money in baseball, basketball, football, etc. The bump in pitching prices went up in the last few years which is the main thing. Teams aren't spending money wisely, they are just spending money because they are investing in pitching. Something the Cardinals have not done. Cardinals control payroll by paying 5-10 guys a big portion of the money while majority are in arbitration years.

Yeah every team would love to be like the Braves....

Is cool if you are angry with management but we really aren't arguing anything at all. I would love the front office to spend more money wisely. They have thrown around enough money on Brett Cecil, Fowler, gave Matt Carpenter a 2 year extension when they didn't need to and he hits under .200 both those seasons, still 2 years left on SP Matz at $12M, etc. I am ticked off they gave Mikolas a 2 year extension. The Goldy and Arenado trades were genius....same time the mangement has messed up a ton of trades, free agent signings, etc. Mozeliak is the untouchable one and that should not be a thing....

People laugh but Ohtani is attainable. I don't expect them to get him but at least try. We are one of the few teams that have enough talent/prospects to land him. Cardinals can afford to pay him

Wainwright and his $18M+ come off the books
DeJong can be bought out after this year for a few million to avoid his $12.5M next season and beyond

Starting pitching was ignored this offseason but could have a drastic change next season. Wainwright gone and see if Flaherty/Montgomery make it to FA cause they will get paid

Ohtani would not only be the ace but force some changes with the platoon of infielders as he would DH also. Kills two birds with one stone
 
#612      
pruman91
illini0440 said:
I’ve watched two innings in the last week+ and it was the 8th and 9th tonight…🤦🏻‍♂️
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I didn't watch last night and tuned in tonight right before the Cardinals 3 run 8th.....Gallegos looked fantastic ........

smh....................
 
#613      
the juiceman cometh
GILL-INOIS said:
You sound like an angry Cardinals fan to me, try living in the area :ROFLMAO:
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I'm frustrated with the state of things, sure. Is there any Cards fan that isn't right now?
GILL-INOIS said:
No owner in professional sports is losing money in baseball, basketball, football, etc. The bump in pitching prices went up in the last few years which is the main thing. Teams aren't spending money wisely, they are just spending money because they are investing in pitching. Something the Cardinals have not done. Cardinals control payroll by paying 5-10 guys a big portion of the money while majority are in arbitration years.

Yeah every team would love to be like the Braves....
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You missed my point about the Braves entirely. The point was they do everything right, but even so they still have to spend significantly more than we do to compete. We do a lot right but with our budget, saying it's an uphill battle would be putting it mildly.

GILL-INOIS said:
Is cool if you are angry with management but we really aren't arguing anything at all. I would love the front office to spend more money wisely. They have thrown around enough money on Brett Cecil, Fowler, gave Matt Carpenter a 2 year extension when they didn't need to and he hits under .200 both those seasons, still 2 years left on SP Matz at $12M, etc. I am ticked off they gave Mikolas a 2 year extension. The Goldy and Arenado trades were genius....same time the mangement has messed up a ton of trades, free agent signings, etc. Mozeliak is the untouchable one and that should not be a thing....
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Every FO has made mistakes, but honestly, in Mo's tenure we've pretty consistently outperformed our payroll. Imagine if we had the FO of the Angels, White Sox, Rangers, Mets, or any number of other teams that have spent more than or equal to us and done far worse over the last 15-20 years. Our ownership sets a budget that makes it hard to compete and Mo usually manages to put together a pretty good team. This year looks like an exception. Fire Mo and maybe you get someone better, more likely you get someone worse.

GILL-INOIS said:
People laugh but Ohtani is attainable. I don't expect them to get him but at least try. We are one of the few teams that have enough talent/prospects to land him. Cardinals can afford to pay him
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Lol. Of course DeWitt, a multi billionaire, can afford to pay him. He also could have afforded to spend like the Padres or Mets did this offseason. But he never has, and I'm pretty confident he never will.

GILL-INOIS said:
Wainwright and his $18M+ come off the books
DeJong can be bought out after this year for a few million to avoid his $12.5M next season and beyond
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Sure. We are also going to have a ton of starting pitchers on team friendly deals hitting FA. Given the reluctance to pay for high end starting pitching, one shudders to think of what this rotation could look like next season.
GILL-INOIS said:
Starting pitching was ignored this offseason but could have a drastic change next season. Wainwright gone and see if Flaherty/Montgomery make it to FA cause they will get paid
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Could be good (if we spend) but also could be really bad (if we expect to keep payroll static or increase moderately).

GILL-INOIS said:
Ohtani would not only be the ace but force some changes with the platoon of infielders as he would DH also. Kills two birds with one stone
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Sure. One $500 million stone.
 
#614      
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
I'm frustrated with the state of things, sure. Is there any Cards fan that isn't right now?

You missed my point about the Braves entirely. The point was they do everything right, but even so they still have to spend significantly more than we do to compete. We do a lot right but with our budget, saying it's an uphill battle would be putting it mildly.


Every FO has made mistakes, but honestly, in Mo's tenure we've pretty consistently outperformed our payroll. Imagine if we had the FO of the Angels, White Sox, Rangers, Mets, or any number of other teams that have spent more than or equal to us and done far worse over the last 15-20 years. Our ownership sets a budget that makes it hard to compete and Mo usually manages to put together a pretty good team. This year looks like an exception. Fire Mo and maybe you get someone better, more likely you get someone worse.


Lol. Of course DeWitt, a multi billionaire, can afford to pay him. He also could have afforded to spend like the Padres or Mets did this offseason. But he never has, and I'm pretty confident he never will.


Sure. We are also going to have a ton of starting pitchers on team friendly deals hitting FA. Given the reluctance to pay for high end starting pitching, one shudders to think of what this rotation could look like next season.

Could be good (if we spend) but also could be really bad (if we expect to keep payroll static or increase moderately).


Sure. One $500 million stone.
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I take most of what you put on here with a grain of salt. All good...at least a Cards fan. I like the interaction, think you like the confrontation lol

And I understand what you are were saying. No need to interpret it for me :ROFLMAO:
 
#615      
the juiceman cometh
GILL-INOIS said:
I take most of what you put on here with a grain of salt. All good...at least a Cards fan. I like the interaction, think you like the confrontation lol

And I understand what you are were saying. No need to interpret it for me :ROFLMAO:
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Sorry if it came off as confrontational, just enjoy a spirited debate from time to time, especially when there's not much else to enjoy about this baseball season.

FWIW I would love to be wrong about Ohtani. He's doing things nobody's ever done before and it would be amazing to see him do it as a Cardinal.
 
#616      
GILL-INOIS
the juiceman cometh said:
Sorry if it came off as confrontational, just enjoy a spirited debate from time to time, especially when there's not much else to enjoy about this baseball season.

FWIW I would love to be wrong about Ohtani. He's doing things nobody's ever done before and it would be amazing to see him do it as a Cardinal.
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I am easygoing and like the back and forth. Majority of what I write in here is opinion with occasional facts thrown in. Part of it is just throwing ideas out on the baseball forum....is a long season

Same time I do live in the St Louis area and here a ton of random facts that I tend to forget by the end of the work day and forget to post.lol

Like for example the reason the Cardinals and Marmol were so ticked off with O'Neill about running the bases so early in the season is literally because O'Neill stayed back in St Louis for part of the offseason to work on his training. Ton of that training had to do with running the bases and angles to the ball.


Sidenote to Pru and those that like Danny Mac....straight shooter who is on the radio show again and natural to listen to if you enjoyed him when he called games. Working from home 95% of the time for the last few years and heard him on the drive in to work the other day. I don't scroll back a ton on the Cardinals page but likely posted here but had a real nice heartfelt tweet from him as well about his struggles and recovery.
 
#618      
Bigtex
Bigtex said:
i understand the DeJong discussion but compared to the bullpen performance it doesn't really matter who is playing SS. Don't have answers but something has to change. Need a LH bat with some pop in the middle of the lineup to break up all of the RH bats. Hopefully Gorman is the answer

From down in Texas don't get a feel if Marmol seat is getting warm but based on highlights, boxscores and results - I am sure there are some qusestioning if he is the right guy.
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went to bed after taking 4-2 lead only to wake up to disastrous final outcome. Middle bullpen was surprisingly effective.
 
#619      
pruman91
Gallegos is much more effective than Helsley right now..........GG's slider is filthy.............It really really is.....Helsley's , not so much....
 
#621      
BillyBob1
Edman had an error to start an inning on consecutive nights that cost them several unearned runs and 2 games.
 
#622      
the juiceman cometh
BillyBob1 said:
Edman had an error to start an inning on consecutive nights that cost them several unearned runs and 2 games.
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Yeah I looked it up and he already has 2 errors at short this season and 2 at 2B. Last season he had 2 at short and 3 at 2B for the entire season.

Not much going right these days.
 
#625      
the juiceman cometh
GILL-INOIS said:
Once I saw that message from IlliniFan on here about Walker's swing I was wondering why he wasn't moved to AAA...makes sense. Work out the kinks and get back up. Walker needs the practice plus daily games to work on it (y)
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Yeah I agree. Needs reps in the field too, pretty weak in that aspect of his game.

What kinda baffles me is bringing Motter back. Why not call up Yepez?
 
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