TSJ Thread

[Captain 14]

I can't imagine what a gut-punch dose of reality it would have been for our players to be in that courtroom on Friday and see with their own eyes the seriousness of what their friend and teammate is facing. And, their university - right or wrong - on the opposing side. If that doesn't affect your energy level and focus, nothing will IMHO

 

[Bbuck21]

DNA analyst here for a state crime lab. Touch DNA from 5 seconds of insertion seems highly unlikely that any male DNA to be detected. Not sure how quickly she got her kit taken. We have great success with sperm because we can fairly easily separate sperm cells from a victims skin cells and then we can isolate a male profile. If there is a very small amount of male DNA from just touch then usually the large amount of female DNA that is present on the swabbing overwhelms the small amount of male DNA present. Even if male DNA were detected in a Quant it could possibly not show at all in a DNA profile. We can use YSTRs to amplify only the male DNA but it is not as discriminating. Males share the same ystr profile with their male relatives and possibly seemingly unknown, unrelated people.

That's what I thought.

 

[Illinoise]

I wanted to post on the previous two threads but both closed before I could comment. I find it very troubling that so many people are okay with TSJ being suspended without due process. My first instinct is that he doesn't seem like the guy to do this. Of course I don't know him personally and could be wrong BUT the DIA does not make legal conclusions but is nevertheless willing to punish him subject to a later determination. I don't buy the argument that he is not being harmed by the University suspending him. Regardless of financial implications of NIL and his NBA prospects he is harmed in not being able to play college basketball. That is no small thing! Other than claiming his innocence, I don't know if TSJ has mounted a defense and probably has not made much public in that regard (nor should he prior to an actual trial). If TSJ broke a specific team rule then the University is justified in suspending him. If they are just suspending him because of a charge against him then I say no way. Even this is elevated from the initial phase of an allegation, it only is elevated to the level of credible allegation based on the available evidence. As an example it could have been reported that the accuser had a witness that corroborates the story...... then it is later discovered this same witness previously conspired to blackmail somebody? None of us knows for sure. If this woman is telling the truth then I praise her courage m If she is lying I hope she pays a huge price. If TSJ did this I hope he is held accountable. It's possible that if the goes to a jury trial that the jury gets it wrong. Convicts an innocent man or let's a guilty man go free.... but the best we can hope to do is give due process.... that is not what is happening here. There is a reason we require guilt beyond a reasonable doubt for criminal charges. Can you imagine going to prison for a crime you didn't commit because a jury believed an accuser even though there was no direct physical evidence that you committed the crime? Innocent until proven guilty has become a fantasy anymore.... I will accept whatever outcome results from a fair due process..... punishing somebody before this occurs (and make no mistake, that is what is occurring) is wrong .... at worst the alleged perpetrator would be free to live his life until found guilty by a jury of his peers ....

I get the frustration. I don’t think you should direct blame toward the DIA however. What are they supposed to do. Never suspend a student athlete no matter what they are charged with, even if the evidence of guilt is overwhelming? Appoint some panel to try and pre determine whether a student athlete is guilty or innocent of the charges? Who wants on that panel? The panel that is in place currently isn’t going to try and adjudicate guilt or innocence but rather look at the charge itself. Say TSJ was charged with failing to file tax returns on his NIL money. They possibly/likely allow him to play under that circumstance. With these charges, no way are they wading into pre determining an outcome.

Plenty of places to direct your frustration but I can’t see the DIA as being one of them.

 

[PattyOBryant]

No this is the 5th.

Starting with the original "TSJ suspended" thread, which has subsequently been named simply "TSJ Thread", this is the 11th in the series.

Each one has it's own flavor. They tend to open with a new train of thought which follows through to the inevitable "lock" icon. This one appears to be all about DNA.

 

[illinifan31]

DNA analyst here for a state crime lab. Touch DNA from 5 seconds of insertion seems highly unlikely that any male DNA to be detected. Not sure how quickly she got her kit taken. We have great success with sperm because we can fairly easily separate sperm cells from a victims skin cells and then we can isolate a male profile. If there is a very small amount of male DNA from just touch then usually the large amount of female DNA that is present on the swabbing overwhelms the small amount of male DNA present. Even if male DNA were detected in a Quant it could possibly not show at all in a DNA profile. We can use YSTRs to amplify only the male DNA but it is not as discriminating. Males share the same ystr profile with their male relatives and possibly seemingly unknown, unrelated people.

This is generally what I assumed. Like even if you detected it, idk how well you could work with it. Isolating for Y or not. Some sites were saying they only needed 2ng of DNA and I was just kind of doubtful of the quality you could get from that.

 

[Illinifan33]

Not at all true, unfortunately. I worked in front of juries for 30 years, and convictions/guilty verdicts can be random and unimaginable. When 12 people sit in a room with prejudices formed from who knows where, you can throw logic out the window. This is the main reason most cases resolve prior to trial.

Legally though, doesn't there have to be some sort of evidence that would tie him to the crime in order to issue a warrant for his arrest? You can't just arrest someone just because someone said you did something.

 

[IlliniKat91]

Legally though, doesn't there have to be some sort of evidence that would tie him to the crime in order to issue a warrant for his arrest? You can't just arrest someone just because someone said you did something.

It's not just her story. Her friend has likely provided a statement that TSJ was there and the one who her friend says touched her. It may be flimsy, but it'd be considered enough to corroborate the story and move forward.

 

[s261]

University lawyers are top-notch. And Case law supports their position. Nevertheless, under the sliding-scale regime for injunctive relief , a greater likelihood of success can offset a lower level of harm, and vice versa. The relevant harm, is “harm resulting from an erroneous preliminary decision” that “final relief cannot redress."

So if the Court perceives that the harm is too great, it can definitively grant the Motion. The University's position is ultimately parochial and predictable. They claim he is not harmed because he has no right to play collegiate sports, and any possible ham ultimately results from his own conduct. But the why is suspension the preferred remedy? They are certainly within their rights to defend their policy, which is designed foremost to protect their own public image,but in reality they have little concern as to how the policy affects the player. The TRO would only tangentially and temporarily circumscribe that power. If the Court grants the TRO it will simultaneously grant expedited discovery which scares them half to death.

It is sad that the Shannon has to sue his own University in order to be treated fairly, and that the DIA has taken a position antithetical to the player. There is truly no ILL in team. Even acknowledging the University the has legal authority to suspend him, it does not dispel the fact that that there is little justification for the ultimate based upon this peculiar set of facts. Her identification of TSJ is, at the very least, irrevocably tainted.

 

[Flyin' Illini]

Can you imagine going to prison for a crime you didn't commit because a jury believed an accuser even though there was no direct physical evidence that you committed the crime? Innocent until proven guilty has become a fantasy anymore

I have to believe there is more evidence we haven't seen, because as it stands there is reasonable doubt about every aspect of this case. In the absence of additional evidence or witnesses, this is completely on the DA for charging something with no proof whatsoever and putting both the accuser and the accused through completely unnecessary hardship.

I absolutely believe that something happened to the victim. I find it extremely unlikely that this was some premeditated or opportunistic hit job. But based on the situation that has been described, I have significant doubts in the accuser's ability to accurately identify her assailant. If the only thing tying TSJ to her is a post-incident web search, that should never have made it past the DA. Sometimes people get away with crimes, and that is unfortunate, but that doesn't mean we should start charging incredibly flimsy cases and potentially putting people's lives in the hands of a jury for a crime that they very well could have had absolutely nothing to do with.

I guess we'll find out in time whether there is anything else to this charge. If not, then I think the DA managed to turn an unfortunate situation into an even worse one.

 

[Flyin' Illini]

It's not just her story. Her friend has likely provided a statement that TSJ was there and the one who her friend says touched her. It may be flimsy, but it'd be considered enough to corroborate the story and move forward.

That's not corroborating the story though. It is corroborating what the victim told the friend. That is much different than the friend corroborating what actually happened.

 

[nicksmith4three]

This is generally what I assumed. Like even if you detected it, idk how well you could work with it. Isolating for Y or not. Some sites were saying they only needed 2ng of DNA and I was just kind of doubtful of the quality you could get from that.

Optimal target total DNA for the amplificatipn is usually around 1.5 nanograms of DNA. We can get full single source profiles from much less than that. Think picograms.

 

[dmb24illini]

DNA analyst here for a state crime lab. Touch DNA from 5 seconds of insertion seems highly unlikely that any male DNA to be detected. Not sure how quickly she got her kit taken. We have great success with sperm because we can fairly easily separate sperm cells from a victims skin cells and then we can isolate a male profile. If there is a very small amount of male DNA from just touch then usually the large amount of female DNA that is present on the swabbing overwhelms the small amount of male DNA present. Even if male DNA were detected in a Quant it could possibly not show at all in a DNA profile. We can use YSTRs to amplify only the male DNA but it is not as discriminating. Males share the same ystr profile with their male relatives and possibly seemingly unknown, unrelated people.

Thanks. That's why I asked the question. The accused act seemed fishy that it would lead to accurate DNA detection.

 

[Illinifan33]

I have to believe there is more evidence we haven't seen, because as it stands there is reasonable doubt about every aspect of this case. In the absence of additional evidence or witnesses, this is completely on the DA for charging something with no proof whatsoever and putting both the accuser and the accused through completely unnecessary hardship.

I absolutely believe that something happened to the victim. I find it extremely unlikely that this was some premeditated or opportunistic hit job. But based on the situation that has been described, I have significant doubts in the accuser's ability to accurately identify her assailant. If the only thing tying TSJ to her is a post-incident web search, that should never have made it past the DA. Sometimes people get away with crimes, and that is unfortunate, but that doesn't mean we should start charging incredibly flimsy cases and potentially putting people's lives in the hands of a jury for a crime that they very well could have had absolutely nothing to do with.

I guess we'll find out in time whether there is anything else to this charge. If not, then I think the DA managed to turn an unfortunate situation into an even worse one.

Agree.

 

[ever]

I absolutely believe that something happened to the victim. I find it extremely unlikely that this was some premeditated or opportunistic hit job. But based on the situation that has been described, I have significant doubts in the accuser's ability to accurately identify her assailant. If the only thing tying TSJ to her is a post-incident web search, that should never have made it past the DA.

If TSJ looked like any ordinary guy and/or was hanging out with ordinary people, sure. And if he wasn't wearing something close to a mustard yellow shirt as she described, then probably.

But how many men in that bar were very tall, had a remotely similar appearance (specifically hair), wore a yellow shirt, and were hanging out with the KU basketball player she recognized?

 

[nichi]

DNA analyst here for a state crime lab. Touch DNA from 5 seconds of insertion seems highly unlikely that any male DNA to be detected.

How about from underwear? She told the investigator he put his hands inside her underwear at the leg opening. The underwear were collected as evidence at the hospital.

 

[Butters]

That's not corroborating the story though. It is corroborating what the victim told the friend. That is much different than the friend corroborating what actually happened.

According to the detective's affidavit, the surveillance video corroborates the timeline the accuser gave with respect to her movements around the bar, how long the incident lasted, as well as TJ being in the area of the bar she claims the incident occurred.

 

[Trueblue777]

This isn’t how I took Kendrick’s comments. I took it as TSJ voluntarily gave a DNA sample. The woman went to the hospital where they did a rape kit and tested her and her clothing for anything. We don’t know if her test results showed another person’s DNA (other than her own). If there was another person’s DNA, and it did not match TSJ, I can’t imagine they would charge him. Most likely, there was no other DNA found and it was TSJ’s own initiative to provide his sample because what else can he do?

The bar was packed I’ve read. She came into contact with a lot of people so how can they prove anything. There was no DNA of TSJ on her . No eyewitnesses to corroborate her accusations. TSJ on the other hand should have a lot of witnesses corroborating his testimony. The woman on his arm, JH, McCullers, Dickinson, grad assistant , etc.

 

[JSpence]

That's not corroborating the story though. It is corroborating what the victim told the friend. That is much different than the friend corroborating what actually happened.

Well, sure. The story isn't _completely_ made up. There is more opportunity for confirmation. Before I explain, I need to say that I'm assuming that TJ's team still doesn't know the identity of the accuser, but will find out on the 18th. I don't know how far off that is.

Recall what was alluded to much earlier on - that the accuser and TJ exchanged messages afterward, and the DA begrudgingly acted upon that. We don't know if that's true, but it is still unlikely that this is a case of mistaken identity. It's certainly not impossible, but so far, we know that the two were in the same location, she identified him, and there isn't video evidence of him _not_ touching her. The rest is her story, and it's easy to fit almost any story into that box.

Even if the texts or whatever really happened, we don't know -- and even TJ doesn't know -- if they went to the accuser. Remember that TJ already told his story to the staff, and he may have copped to some consensual stuff, and this turns out to be a totally different girl. But maybe the texts he knows of WERE to the accuser. If the DA sees them as anywhere from damning admission to acknowledgement that he thought he might know her, it is still some sort of corroboration that could push her case (or her perception of it) into different territory.

 

[DrMac210]

If TSJ looked like any ordinary guy and/or was hanging out with ordinary people, sure. And if he wasn't wearing something close to a mustard yellow shirt as she described, then probably.

But how many men in that bar were very tall, had a remotely similar appearance (specifically hair), wore a yellow shirt, and were hanging out with the KU basketball player she recognized?

In the police interview (as seen in exhibit B-3 of the TSJ TRO 84 page document) the accuser states “there was a male next to the suspect that she recognized as XXXXXXX, a KU basketball player,”

Then later on in the same paragraph she states that in the TSJ Instagram photo from the KU/ILL basketball game that “Terrance was pictured with the same male she saw next to him in the bar.”…….. although that male is actually Justin Harmon (who is tagged in the photo)

So I’m not 100% sure, but it sounds like the person in the bar that she THOUGHT was a KU player is instead Justin Harmon.

 

[JSpence]

In the police interview (as seen in exhibit B-3 of the TSJ TRO 84 page document) the accuser states “there was a male next to the suspect that she recognized as XXXXXXX, a KU basketball player,”

Then later on in the same paragraph she states that in the TSJ Instagram photo from the KU/ILL basketball game that “Terrance was pictured with the same male she saw next to him in the bar.”…….. although that male is actually Justin Harmon (who is tagged in the photo)

So I’m not 100% sure, but it sounds like the person in the bar that she THOUGHT was a KU player is instead Justin Harmon.

I'm right there with ya on that one. I am not on Instagram, so I assumed there is some _other_ shot where Hunter (or whomever) an is next to our guys. I refuse to believe that they would ruin TJ's life if this was a main pillar of her story.

 

[ever]

In the police interview (as seen in exhibit B-3 of the TSJ TRO 84 page document) the accuser states “there was a male next to the suspect that she recognized as XXXXXXX, a KU basketball player,”

Then later on in the same paragraph she states that in the TSJ Instagram photo from the KU/ILL basketball game that “Terrance was pictured with the same male she saw next to him in the bar.”…….. although that male is actually Justin Harmon (who is tagged in the photo)

So I’m not 100% sure, but it sounds like the person in the bar that she THOUGHT was a KU player is instead Justin Harmon.

In items 20 and 21 on page 16 of that 84 page document, TSJ's legal team seems to suggest that the named KU basketball player and Harmon (among others) were indeed both with TSJ at the bar that night. It's not clear from the use of pronouns in exhibit B-3 whether the accuser thinks the person next to TSJ in the photo (Harmon) is the KU basketball player she thought she recognized, or if she recognized the KU basketball player while she was at the bar, and then when she saw the picture online she noticed Harmon was one of the other people next to TSJ.

For what it's worth, the accuser's friend also said she had recognized the KU basketball player next to the male suspect, and that the instagram picture she later saw of TSJ matched the male suspect.

 

[cjw1901]

Yes, this fact that "there is no DNA match to TSJ" is inconclusive, since it was around 17 hours from the time of the incident that samples from the alleged victim were taken at Lawrence Memorial Hospital. By that time, it is likely the alleged victim showered and possibly douched. Either one would make it very unlikely to find any other person's DNA with a vaginal swab taken by a SANE.

It looks like the key witnesses and evidence in this case (in no particular order) are likely: 1) the allege victim and her statements to police and testimony, if it goes to trial, 2) the alleged victim's phone records (to corroborate her allegations), 3) the surveillance video that showed she and TSJ were both in same part of the Martini Room in Jayhawk Cafe around the same time ("for a little over 2 minutes" according to the affidavit, so that is also corroborating evidence), 4) the friend of the alleged victim (the same one who appeared to be consoling her a short time after the incident) and any statement she made to police or testimony she gives at trial, and 5) possibly a bunch of other witnesses from the Martini Room crowd and their phone data including TSJ, those that traveled and attended the game with him (Justin Harmon and DeShawn Hobson), the KU basketball player next to TSJ who the alleged victim later recognized, the female who allegedly was in TSJ's other arm at the time of the incident, and so on.

 

[IlliniKat91]

That's not corroborating the story though. It is corroborating what the victim told the friend. That is much different than the friend corroborating what actually happened.

If the friend was there and can say, "I saw TSJ at the Jayhawk Cafe and he called my friend over to him while we were there on September 9th," that's enough to establish he was there and open an investigation into him. There's likely more evidence we don't know about because the prosecution hasn't made it available to the defense yet. They won't have to do that until we hit discovery, as I learned when I asked here a few days ago.

All the pieces aren't on the board yet, no matter what they say on a podcast with great connections.

 

[MDchicago]

Legally though, doesn't there have to be some sort of evidence that would tie him to the crime in order to issue a warrant for his arrest? You can't just arrest someone just because someone said you did something.

 

[bdutts]

DNA analyst here for a state crime lab. Touch DNA from 5 seconds of insertion seems highly unlikely that any male DNA to be detected. Not sure how quickly she got her kit taken. We have great success with sperm because we can fairly easily separate sperm cells from a victims skin cells and then we can isolate a male profile. If there is a very small amount of male DNA from just touch then usually the large amount of female DNA that is present on the swabbing overwhelms the small amount of male DNA present. Even if male DNA were detected in a Quant it could possibly not show at all in a DNA profile. We can use YSTRs to amplify only the male DNA but it is not as discriminating. Males share the same ystr profile with their male relatives and possibly seemingly unknown, unrelated people.

What is YSTR?