TSJ Thread
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No one, including me, is suggesting that anyone in the NBA is reading message boards to determine the validity of the charges. In fact, I'm arguing the exact opposite. If TSJ has actual facts that point to his innocence it's in his best interest to release them before the trial.
Your next point reiterates this. You are speculating that his DNA was somewhere on her. You think it "unlikely" that the test was negative. So you're saying that if he has information that refutes your speculation he shouldn't release that? Once again, how could that possibly harm his case?
As to your point about DA offices not wanting to prosecute losing cases I suppose that's right. But it's also right that some of these prosecutors across the country don't seem to care. In the case of this prosecutor she's facing disciplinary charges. I'm sure most of us think that she wouldn't be "in the business" of being hauled in front of a judge and perhaps being suspended. But here we are.
the national
- the Front Range
“University of Illinois police knew details about Terrence Shannon Jr. investigation but didn't share with school officials, records show”
www.chicagotribune.com
I saw this posted today from the Chicago Tribune. I noticed the prelim date was incorrect for Feb 23rd (not sure about all the other facts). I am mostly sharing as this was reposted on Fox and a few other outlets.
University of Illinois police knew details about Terrence Shannon Jr. investigation but didn’t share with school officials, records show
Terrence Shannon Jr. faces one count of rape or an alternative count of misdemeanor sexual battery in a case that stems from a September trip he took to the University of Kansas.
www.chicagotribune.com
I saw this posted today from the Chicago Tribune. I noticed the prelim date was incorrect for Feb 23rd (not sure about all the other facts). I am mostly sharing as this was reposted on Fox and a few other outlets.
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just rumor I believe.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
To be clear, my semi-educated speculation which should be taken with a boulder of salt is that these charges would not have been filed in the first place if TSJ's DNA was not found, and that the matched DNA is what led the DA to go forward.
I say that because you have some pretty serious problems with ID'ing the defendant otherwise, which 100% go away with a DNA match, and you have some pretty serious "did the purported intercourse occur as alleged" problems otherwise, which are significantly mitigated with a DNA match (exactly where on the victim the DNA was recovered remains extremely relevant and important).
And of course it's even worse if 3rd party DNA was found but not Shannon's.
Between the weakness of the case without a DNA match, the fact that we know DNA analysis was done, and the timeline of the charges being filed, a positive match seems like a reasonable inference to me. Boulder of salt.
(The most likely reason this could be wrong would be strong witness testimony of the incident, but the bizarre nature of the allegations and the police report make that seem unlikely? Also why the timing?)
I know nothing about specific Kansas criminal procedure, but the inclusion of lesser included offenses (ie, the same conduct could prove a lesser charge in addition to the top one) is very common in indictments for a variety of reasons, and sometimes mandatory.
Again my contention is that there is no possible set of facts under which TSJ is under active indictment for felony rape and the perception among the public or the NBA community is "actually, these charges should not have been filed and we should operate under the belief that he will eventually be exonerated".
I think it's reasonable to say that the facts as alleged, while painting TSJ in a horrible light, are somewhat challenging in terms the extremely severe consequences the law places upon sexual violence. I can sympathize with the feeling that the charges are excessive (indeed I find the "overcome by force or fear" element of the offense to be pretty shaky on the alleged facts), or even that the better use of the prosecutor's discretion would have been to decline to file charges at all.
I mean let's be even more frank: one finds it a little difficult to believe this same incident leads to this indictment 25 years ago, when cultural attitudes around this sort of thing were very different, even though the letter of the law was the same. A whole can of worms it would be inappropriate to open here.
But the charges were filed, and the consequences the law places on sexual violence are extremely severe, and could very possibly preclude a professional basketball career of any kind for TSJ. Perceptions of the strength or prudence of the case against him are, IMO, meaningless against that backdrop.
that came from Kedrik Prince and other sources
We have had actual attorneys on here say the opposite- that it's extremely uncommon and tips the DA's hand that they're not in any way confident in the primary charge.
Edit: It's also been pointed out that there's not been an indictment at all. No grand jury involvement to date, the DA brought a formal accusation without one for whatever reason (I believe the reason given was its not "necessary" in Kansas).
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Once again, this “the DA wouldn’t file charges if there wasn’t major evidence” narrative has to stop.
They may have evidence, they may not. All the DA has to show to file charges is probable cause. The alleged victims story likely constitutes probable cause on its own.
They may have evidence, they may not. All the DA has to show to file charges is probable cause. The alleged victims story likely constitutes probable cause on its own.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Are they from Douglas County, Kansas?
This sort of thing wildly varies by jurisdiction.
(That does not mean I don't find it plausible that they are using the bigger offense to try and get TSJ to plead to the misdemeanor. I actually find that extremely plausible, the "force or fear" element of the felony rape charge seems very difficult to prove to me on these facts. But THAT would be the furthest thing from uncommon, that is just how prosecution is done in our Land of the Free. Can of worms not to be opened here.)
I'm unsure where they were from, but I'd guess you are probably correct that they don't live in Douglas County, Kansas. Though, I would venture to think that they did some cursory research before coming here with (what seemed to me to be) very astute, confident and extremely detailed explanations of the process as it is applied in Kansas. Much, much more detailed and expansive information than what we've brought and discussed here in the last page or two.
I'll have to disagree with my own semi-educated speculation on that front. The DA is an elected official that ran in large part due to the philosophy of always believing alleged SA victims. She had a victim who says they ID'd their attacker and the other evidence puts said attacker at the alleged scene. Sounds like enough for a DA to bring charges, even if they don't necessarily expect to get a conviction on just the evidence in hand. The DA is 0-8 in rape cases, which are admittedly inherently hard to convict on, but also shows a willingness to prosecute cases that are not a sure-fire win.
Further, based on my understanding, TJ's sample was given voluntarily prior to his arrest, not compelled via a warrant (which would require probable cause threshold without such DNA evidence anyway). Why would he do that if there was any chance it would be the nail in his coffin?
To put District Attorney Valdez philosophy about prosecuting sexual assault cases into further context, here is a statement she made as published in The University Daily Kansan student newspaper shortly after she first won her August 20, 2020 Democratic primary election for the District Attorney of Douglas County, Kansas, which virtually guaranteed her ultimate election since no Republican candidate was running against her.
While working on a book about prosecutorial ethics, Valdez said she became concerned with how cases were being handled by current District Attorney Branson. “Probably the final straw was when he charged a few women with false reporting [sexual assault],” Valdez said. “Charging survivors and victims with the crime of false reporting is just not- you may not charge the underlying sexual assault, but you just don’t charge them with false reporting.”
While working on a book about prosecutorial ethics, Valdez said she became concerned with how cases were being handled by current District Attorney Branson. “Probably the final straw was when he charged a few women with false reporting [sexual assault],” Valdez said. “Charging survivors and victims with the crime of false reporting is just not- you may not charge the underlying sexual assault, but you just don’t charge them with false reporting.”
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Based on the litany of issues with the report, investigation, communication, and questioning of witnesses that have already been leaked, I think your rationale that they must have hard evidence is speculative at best. I mean, one could similarly ask then, why has Lawrence and the DA made no public comment about this case involving a public figure or announced that the DNA results came back positive? And even if the DA were to choose not to say anything, it's fairly unusual that nobody including any Lawrence cop willing to make a quick buck would leak this.
Right now, I don't think anyone can truly speculate whether the DA has hard evidence or not as there just isn't enough information. I would expect though that if there was no DNA evidence that within this week TSJ's legal team will indeed make a public comment about that. His team should have received all the evidence they subpoenaed by midnight last night. I would expect more to come out this week.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Lawrence Man Convicted of Rape | Douglas County, KS
Douglas County District Attorney Suzanne Valdez today announced that a jury returned a guilty verdict on one count of rape against Ray C. Atkins, 22, of Lawrence.Charges stemmed from an incident involving a then 17-year-old Wichita resident who was staying at a residence located in the 2900...
Ottawa man sentenced in rape of 13-year-old Lawrence girl | Douglas County, KS
Douglas County District Attorney Suzanne Valdez today announced that Ernest F. Ingram II, 22, of Ottawa, was sentenced to 253 months in prison for raping a 13-year-old Lawrence girl in 2021 and six months for furnishing alcohol to the minor for illicit purposes.Judge Amy Hanley sentenced Ingram...
As I've said, I am sympathetic to and aware of the justification for the notion that TSJ is getting railroaded by an agenda-driven prosecutor. I think there's a mild degree of overconfidence in that regard, but I see it.
Where I'm disagreeing is with the idea that a public pressure campaign on that basis would benefit TSJ with anyone (college basketball writers, opposing fans, NBA scouts, NBA teams and their legal counsel, potential Douglas County jurors, the Douglas County DA herself aka the only person with the power to drop the charges).
What it would benefit is the short-term feelings of Illinois Basketball fans who are closely following this on the internet. That's gotta take a backseat to TSJ's wellbeing and future which are 100% dependent on the actual final outcome of the case.
Probable cause is a low bar. "Don't give them the DNA and hope they go away" isn't really a viable strategy.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
I just want to pop into say that "Always believe alleged victims" is a completely insane thing to support even if you don't mean it 100% literally. Past wrongs don't vindicate future wrongs in the other direction, and every case must stand on its own.
But in her own words on the District Attorney website, the very first thing that DA Valdez states is as follows:
Welcome!
As your district attorney, I am proud of our work to create a victim-focused approach . . .
The information in the FOIA releases obtained by Champaign Showers show that TSJ's DNA sample was obtained per a warrant from LPD (working with UIPD).
It's unfortunate that you continue to assign motives to people that they don't have and which I actually haven't seen. I don't believe Shannon releasing a negative DNA result would cause her to change her mind on this case. She obviously has the results.Lawrence Man Convicted of Rape | Douglas County, KS
Douglas County District Attorney Suzanne Valdez today announced that a jury returned a guilty verdict on one count of rape against Ray C. Atkins, 22, of Lawrence.Charges stemmed from an incident involving a then 17-year-old Wichita resident who was staying at a residence located in the 2900...www.douglascountyks.org
Ottawa man sentenced in rape of 13-year-old Lawrence girl | Douglas County, KS
Douglas County District Attorney Suzanne Valdez today announced that Ernest F. Ingram II, 22, of Ottawa, was sentenced to 253 months in prison for raping a 13-year-old Lawrence girl in 2021 and six months for furnishing alcohol to the minor for illicit purposes.Judge Amy Hanley sentenced Ingram...
As I've said, I am sympathetic to and aware of the justification for the notion that TSJ is getting railroaded by an agenda-driven prosecutor. I think there's a mild degree of overconfidence in that regard, but I see it.
Where I'm disagreeing is with the idea that a public pressure campaign on that basis would benefit TSJ with anyone (college basketball writers, opposing fans, NBA scouts, NBA teams and their legal counsel, potential Douglas County jurors, the Douglas County DA herself aka the only person with the power to drop the charges).
What it would benefit is the short-term feelings of Illinois Basketball fans who are closely following this on the internet. That's gotta take a backseat to TSJ's wellbeing and future which are 100% dependent on the actual final outcome of the case.
Probable cause is a low bar. "Don't give them the DNA and hope they go away" isn't really a viable strategy.
Would it change your mind? You are speculating that the result is positive. If he released an actual document would you change your mind?
Now, do you think that there is anyone in a front office anywhere in the NBA who shares your speculative opinion? Do you think they'd change their mind?
You refer to this as a "public pressure campaign". Perhaps someone is thinking of doing some sort of petition drive, etc. But that's certainly not what I have in mind. My thought is you put out evidence that makes your client look good before the trial (who knows when) and before the NBA draft.
It's possible that the warrant is required for the validity of the evidence or to trigger a particular method of collecting the sample. Hard to know, but it's certainly possible that the voluntary submission is pure urban legend. There's lots of of it surrounding this case.
S
Sounds like someone whose background was a liberal law school professor who was essentially run out the door by the university. Sexual crimes in particular are often based almost exclusively on credibility. If you are the DA you have to insure the accuser knows how important the truth is. Someone is charged their life irrevocably altered, resources and time are spent and the credibility of your office is at stake. And if it turns out they lied you damn sure you charge them with false reporting. It is a criminal offense and there needs to be accountability and you better believe the next credibility case you have you make sure the accuser knows what might happen if they are lying. This is so common a practice in a prosecutor's office it hardly warrants discussion much less making it a platform issue. Look at her statement in detail and relish how inane it is. You may not charge the sexual assault. Well she does based on credibility and she assumes she is getting the truth. The whole thing is ridiculous just like the job she has done since she was elected. The sheriff also elected and the same party has asked in the press why she has not been recalled. Sorry for ranting but ever since this story broke I have been looking into that office. To assume she operates like a normal DA is false. To assume she has good credible evidence is just that an assumption which I find dubious. From the charging information the accused was rubbing her hind end and that was all fine and she consented but then there was the additional act she did not consent to. Talk about how critical credibility is. I am aghast at no grand jury here. These facts in a high profile case I cannot imagine not convening a grand jury. A simple process and more important she is off the hook one way or the other. Unless of course the evidence is not near as strong as some of the posters apparently believe
I thought I saw somewhere that the reason for the 2 separate charges was that one charge was for the alleged penetration and the second lessor charge was for the alleged grabbing of the butt. Maybe I read it in the original charging document. Might not be common to have two different sexual assault charges for the same incident but similar to a main charge and then all the throw ins they get people with. So the DA wasn’t offering a plea down upfront but a completely separate charge. Just confusing since you figure the felony charge would encompass the whole incident.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Mike Kagay: Benefits of the grand jury process
In government, the goal is to provide needed services with the least possible burden on taxpayers. Over the past few years, Shawnee County, which wholly comprises the Third Judicial District of Kansa…
www.cjonline.com
Aha! I've been googling for that information for days.
So the preliminary hearing that got kicked to May or whatever is very, very important for TSJ's immediate NBA prospects.
W
Which is why it never happens. If you are the Shannon camp you cannot take the chance unless you are 100% certain you win which is impossible. The first priority was playing the remainder of the season. That has happened and is not going to change. Second priority is the draft which is in June. Sometime between the end of the season, hopefully in April at the final four, and the draft this gets resolved and unfortunately for all the speculators it is going to get resolved in a way your unending curiosity will never be satisfiedMike Kagay: Benefits of the grand jury process
In government, the goal is to provide needed services with the least possible burden on taxpayers. Over the past few years, Shawnee County, which wholly comprises the Third Judicial District of Kansa…www.cjonline.com
Aha! I've been googling for that information for days.
So the preliminary hearing that got kicked to May or whatever is very, very important for TSJ's immediate NBA prospects.
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