West Virginia 89, Illinois 57 POSTGAME

#126      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Obelix said:
Self defeating is trying to argue against something that the other person has not said, when you are losing an argument. You look pretty bad when you try to accuse me of having said that Groce is not at fault, especially given my views on Groce.

Your argument is that this "team is very talented," so do not try to argue with me that I have said that this is not Groce's fault.

Very poor argument...
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I'm sorry, I just have no idea what point you're trying to deliver here.

Regardless, I forcefully disagree that the middling to lowly preseason predictions for this team represented an indictment on the talent level of the roster, as opposed to the anticipated ability (or lack thereof) to exploit that talent.
 
#127      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Second and Chalmers said:
I'm sorry, I just have no idea what point you're trying to deliver here.

Regardless, I forcefully disagree that the middling to lowly preseason predictions for this team represented an indictment on the talent level of the roster, as opposed to the anticipated ability (or lack thereof) to exploit that talent.
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You can play dumb all you want, but you lose credibility trying to create a strawman, even using quotes which the other person has not said. Very poor...

You can read again above, but it seems you don't want to.

Just because Groce has done a very poor job coaching, does not mean that this team is very talented. If it was, it would not have been ranked that low, especially by computer programs that do not have the "Groce is just a terrible coach" parameter.

Again, look at the 2010-11 team. That team was ranked #13/#16 in pre-season. It is not that Weber by the time was considered a genius (his shine was long gone), but it was a much more talented team.
 
#128      

Lord Snow

Lord Snow
Lord Snow
Right now, this team is like the Lakers team that had 3 hall of famers with NAsh, Kobe, Howard and other players. And that team SUCKED. Some teams just dont have the chemistry. We have a collection of players right now, not a TEAM.

If we can not lose too many games before its too late, we MAY have a team after more time to gel. If not, I believe the TEAM starts next year.
 
#131      

TCTORNADO

TCTORNADO
TCTORNADO
Off topic, but a salute to 13,074 posts. Thanks for all the insight.:thumb::thumb::thumb:
 
#132      

MadSeason

MadSeason
MadSeason
Obelix said:
You can play dumb all you want, but you lose credibility trying to create a strawman, even using quotes which the other person has not said. Very poor...

You can read again above, but it seems you don't want to.

Just because Groce has done a very poor job coaching, does not mean that this team is very talented. If it was, it would not have been ranked that low, especially by computer programs that do not have the "Groce is just a terrible coach" parameter.

Again, look at the 2010-11 team. That team was ranked #13/#16 in pre-season. It is not that Weber by the time was considered a genius (his shine was long gone), but it was a much more talented team.
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2010-2011 was far and away a more talented team. I will disagree to an extent that the shine was off Weber though. i think there was still a thought that he was a coach em up grinder who was finally entering the year with legit Final 4 talent. At the end of that year however I would say the shine was completely off because he so mismanaged that roster. This team isn't close to that level on paper or in court performance however
 
#135      

Bear8287

B
Bear8287
homesickalien said:
This and Groce's overall conference record might be the best data I've seen to say this staff is in over their heads.
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Here's some more data. So far in calendar year 2016 the Illini are 11-15 and of those 11 wins 5 came against horrible Rutgers and Minnesota teams (along with 4 periods of OT to accomplish that). Another 4 wins came against "cupcakes" this season leaving two "good" wins over Iowa and Purdue in those 26 games.

Some fans are saying that the WVU loss isn't as upsetting as it would've been in the past. Perhaps the reason for that is because of those 15 losses, 6 of them have been by 25 or more points and 3 of those by 30 or more points.

Anyone remember these?
MSU L 54-79 (25)
Indiana L 69-103 (34)
Indiana L 47-74 (27)
Maryland L 55-81 (26)
Purdue L 58-89 (31)
WVU L 57-89 (32)​

That's all in about 4 months of basketball, so Illini fans are getting used to seeing the team get totally blown off of the court about three times every two months now...
 
#136      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
The team was unprepared and clueless today. That is on the coaching staff, there is no excuse for losing to Winthrop and getting trounced the way we did today.

But the talent on this team has been greatly exaggerated.

Abrams brings leadership, but he is not a PG. His ball handling skills are not that great when guarded closely and it was obvious today that he waited too long to make decisions with the ball, making the WVU trap even more effective. Not fluid in press situations, not just today.

Tate has actually better pure ball handling skills, but lacks the decision making ability and rest of skillset on offense. He was actually better escaping the first trap on the WVU press, but worse on the subsequent pass and decisions.

JCL has a beautiful stroke, but so far in his career has been one dimensional. He needs some space, he has difficulty creating "with the ball."

Hill has carried the team but lacks quickness. He has developed his step back move, but is difficult to pull it through when opponents focus on just stopping him. Even against Winthrop, he was called again for the arm push trying to create space. Yet, we'll go as far as he gets us.

Mav has improved, even under Groce. But he is not the "scoring big man at C" that people repeatedly made him out to be in the off-season. He also has a problem defending the post and preventing second-chance opportunities in the paint.

Thorne is better in the post IMO, he needs to start. Force the defense to pull back. But because we beat KU and Kentucky for his services, primarily due to offering much more PT, it does not mean that he is a 5-star player. He was not that player at Charlotte.

Black continues to pick up silly fouls and gets off rhythm. Just because he played well against some low level local town teams in Belgium-France two summers ago, it does not mean he has proven his potential so far as a Div. I player.

DJW has shown flashes of potential. But I have watched him extensively since freshman year at Simeon. Even in HS, his biggest problem had been consistency, and it was under a different coach, not Groce. He struggled then, he struggles now.

Personally, based on what I have seen from the team so far and in previous years, I think Finke may be our most talented player. Good catch and shoot, has range, can make the entry pass. But he is a stretch 4, it is difficult for him to take over games.

It does not mean that this team in untalented, or does not have the talent to beat Winthrop, or that it has to get embarrassed like that today and look so clueless against WVU. But for those that say that this team "is very talented" or "very deep" where do you see it? Specifics, not generalities.
 
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#137      

ChicagoFightingIllini

C
ChicagoFightingIllini
Obelix said:
Black continues to pick up silly fouls and gets off rhythm. Just because he played well against some low level local town teams in Belgium-France two summers ago, it does not mean he has proven his potential so far as a Div. I player.


Personally, based on what I have seen from the team so far and in previous years, I think Finke may be our most talented player. Good catch and shoot, has range, can make the entry pass. But he is a stretch 4, it is difficult for him to take over games.
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Black was one of the only players that looked like he belonged on the court today. He challenged some shots at the rim and grabbed some tough rebounds. Both things this team struggles with. He get a lot of bad fouls though.

Finke has some nice areas to his game. Unfortunately, he makes a lot of really poor decisions. He really struggled to inbound the ball today. Additionally, he lacks lateral speed. His on the ball defending reminds me a lot of Pau Gasol, which is not a good thing.
 
#138      

homesickalien

homesickalien
Springfield
homesickalien
Yes this team's talent isn't that great, but the coaching is historically bad. You give a good coach this roster and I bet they're not losing by 30. Talent not great. Coaching even worse.

I'm just hoping for a somewhat respectable finish to the season so we can get going on the coaching search. This staff isn't the answer and they'll be gone by the end of the year. The question is how bad is it going to get until then?
 
#139      

Cymoin

C
Cymoin
Big picture, the B1G is probably 5th out of the "Power 6" CBB conferences. These holiday tourneys, the Gavitt Games and the upcoming Challenge expose the conference on many levels. And please...WVU is WAY more athletic than the Illini but to use today as evidence for them being top 10 is like using the reporting of the mainstream media to predict the 2016 election. Illinois is an average team in a conference embarking upon a down year. I know it's early but look around...the top 2 or 3 teams in almost every other "Power" conference (except SEC) would be the top 3 in the B1G. Did you see what UNC did to Whisky? South Carolina to Michigan? Baylor to Izzo? The non-conference results for the B1G against good teams this year is going to be abysmal. There will be lots of parity within the conference which I believe will lead to a max of 5 teams in the big dance. So if that is unacceptable to you, check out now and add a few years onto your life.
 
#140      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
homesickalien said:
Yes this team's talent isn't that great, but the coaching is historically bad. You give a good coach this roster and I bet they're not losing by 30. Talent not great. Coaching even worse.
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I do not think anyone will disagree with that.

I still do not believe that JW will fire Groce if he makes the NIT (not a statement or should or shouldn't) but current course and speed, this is not an NIT team.
 
#141      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Cymoin said:
Big picture, the B1G is probably 5th out of the "Power 6" CBB conferences. These holiday tourneys, the Gavitt Games and the upcoming Challenge expose the conference on many levels. And please...WVU is WAY more athletic than the Illini but to use today as evidence for them being top 10 is like using the reporting of the mainstream media to predict the 2016 election. Illinois is an average team in a conference embarking upon a down year. I know it's early but look around...the top 2 or 3 teams in almost every other "Power" conference (except SEC) would be the top 3 in the B1G. Did you see what UNC did to Whisky? South Carolina to Michigan? Baylor to Izzo? The non-conference results for the B1G against good teams this year is going to be abysmal. There will be lots of parity within the conference which I believe will lead to a max of 5 teams in the big dance. So if that is unacceptable to you, check out now and add a few years onto your life.
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Too early to say that this will be a down year in the B1G. MSU is very young and will likely get much better, and UNC currently looks by far the best team in the nation, so beating Wisconsin does not mean that Wisconsin is bad.
 
#142      

homesickalien

homesickalien
Springfield
homesickalien
Obelix said:
I do not think anyone will disagree with that.

I still do not believe that JW will fire Groce if he makes the NIT (not a statement or should or shouldn't) but current course and speed, this is not an NIT team.
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I don't think there's any question that he would. With the plan he's trying to put into place for the department I think he's pulling the trigger. He might have last year if he had came in at a different time and didn't have the football mess. Whitman has shown he's capable so far. I really hope he doesn't make the mistake of keeping this staff around any longer.
 
#143      

SummerofGeorge

S
SummerofGeorge
Obelix said:
The team was unprepared and clueless today. That is on the coaching staff, there is no excuse for losing to Winthrop and getting trounced the way we did today.

But the talent on this team has been greatly exaggerated.

Abrams brings leadership, but he is not a PG. His ball handling skills are not that great when guarded closely and it was obvious today that he waited too long to make decisions with the ball, making the WVU trap even more effective. Not fluid in press situations, not just today.

Tate has actually better pure ball handling skills, but lacks the decision making ability and rest of skillset on offense. He was actually better escaping the first trap on the WVU press, but worse on the subsequent pass and decisions.

JCL has a beautiful stroke, but so far in his career has been one dimensional. He needs some space, he has difficulty creating "with the ball."

Hill has carried the team but lacks quickness. He has developed his step back move, but is difficult to pull it through when opponents focus on just stopping him. Even against Winthrop, he was called again for the arm push trying to create space. Yet, we'll go as far as he gets us.

Mav has improved, even under Groce. But he is not the "scoring big man at C" that people repeatedly made him out to be in the off-season. He also has a problem defending the post and preventing second-chance opportunities in the paint.

Thorne is better in the post IMO, he needs to start. Force the defense to pull back. But because we beat KU and Kentucky for his services, primarily due to offering much more PT, it does not mean that he is a 5-star player. He was not that player at Charlotte.

Black continues to pick up silly fouls and gets off rhythm. Just because he played well against some low level local town teams in Belgium-France two summers ago, it does not mean he has proven his potential so far as a Div. I player.

DJW has shown flashes of potential. But I have watched him extensively since freshman year at Simeon. Even in HS, his biggest problem had been consistency, and it was under a different coach, not Groce. He struggled then, he struggles now.

Personally, based on what I have seen from the team so far and in previous years, I think Finke may be our most talented player. Good catch and shoot, has range, can make the entry pass. But he is a stretch 4, it is difficult for him to take over games.

It does not mean that this team in untalented, or does not have the talent to beat Winthrop, or that it has to get embarrassed like that today and look so clueless against WVU. But for those that say that this team "is very talented" or "very deep" where do you see it? Specifics, not generalities.
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Pretty accurate assessment of the situation. A lot of moving pieces here with guys getting back into the mix after injuries/suspensions, a roster of fairly average talent, and less than stellar in-game coaching thus far. I don't like the way we competed yesterday at all but most could have accepted this loss much better if we had not blown the Winthrop game. How different would the views be had we extended that 10 point lead during the last 3 minutes and beaten Winthrop by 15 like we should have? This loss would have been a much easier pill to swallow imo.
 
#144      

jonnymo

J
the paign
jonnymo
DrewD007 said:
Doesn't do anything now. He'all wait until the end of the season and we may be singing a different tune then.
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I doubt Whitman is doing nothing. That's not how he is wired. He's a very pro active person. I would say at the least he's compiling a list and doing research. It's also possible he has already been on the phone talking to people and rattling some cages.

As far as singing a different tune......I don't think so. There is enough evidence that Groce is a poor game planner and in game coach. In his 4+ years here there is not one single thing basketball wise that he can hang his hat on to say "THIS is what we do". We still see the same piss poor defense, piss poor rebounding, piss poor substitution patterns, in game adjustments, etc etc etc.

Under Groce this is the dumpster fire he has created. NCAA RPI by season

2012-2013 = 38th (with Weber's players)
13-14 = 61st
14-15 = 74th
15-16 = 148th
This year's RPI after the Winthrop game
165th.
 
#145      

IlliniBacker

IlliniBacker
IlliniBacker
The last time I remember feeling like Groce was a "good coach" was after the Miami game at the end of year one.

Since then, not much that he's done or how his teams have played have impressed me. The guy's had some bad luck for sure. But I'd like to see any evidence that he can actually get it done from a coaching/strategy/player development point of view. I don't see it... AT ALL. Am I missing something?
 
#147      

SummerofGeorge

S
SummerofGeorge
IlliniBacker said:
The last time I remember feeling like Groce was a "good coach" was after the Miami game at the end of year one.

Since then, not much that he's done or how his teams have played have impressed me. The guy's had some bad luck for sure. But I'd like to see any evidence that he can actually get it done from a coaching/strategy/player development point of view. I don't see it... AT ALL. Am I missing something?
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The only point I would disagree with somewhat is the player development point of view. I think most would agree that Malcolm Hill and Maverick Morgan have made huge gains in their development during their time at UI. Can't argue with the other points you have made.
 
#148      

SummerofGeorge

S
SummerofGeorge
stlillinifan said:
Weber was a far better coach than Groce...far better
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How is that working out for K-State? I am not going to argue that Groce is a better coach because there is no evidence to support that (although he is a better recruiter). To say Weber was "far better" is just a statement of frustration which is understandable.
 
#149      

illiniboy60074

I
illiniboy60074
SummerofGeorge said:
How is that working out for K-State? I am not going to argue that Groce is a better coach because there is no evidence to support that (although he is a better recruiter). To say Weber was "far better" is just a statement of frustration which is understandable.
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I think the 2005 appearance in the NCAA final makes him a far better coach. Weber's problem was that he could not recruit and in particular could not recruit the right players for his system. That does not mean he is as good as Izzo or Coach K but he is far better than Groce.
 
#150      

Gillini

G
Gillini
Newman said:
I feel bad for Groce and I feel bad for the players. Even if it was bad luck, at a certain point it gets hard to break a habit and currently it's a habit of losing. We still have an opportunity to turn the season around but we have to beat a quality team or two before conference play to at least give us some confidence during the first stretch of conference games. Winthrop and WVU probably won't be bad losses at the end of the season but we need good wins, period. I won't watch the recording but I'm hoping that the meltdown is more because of WVU's strength and quality as opposed to incompetencies with our players and coaching staff. I still have hope, but it'll surely fade fast if we can't get a solid win in the next couple of weeks. I definitely don't blame fans for being upset or fed up. Regardless of what happens, this season is the where we'll find out for sure if Groce is the guy for the job or not. I hope he is but if he doesn't start winning, his likeability becomes meaningless. That's a tough thing to say about a terrific guy so I hope we don't have to cross that road.
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I have no idea why you would feel bad for a guy making this kind of money to be a completely incompetent coach. He has been horrible since the first day he took the job. Since year 1, our offense is garbage and our players look undisciplined and uncoached. What you see on the floor now is what you get with no coach at all. We could fire the entire staff and get just as good of results the rest of the season.

I don't know how you still hold out hope, I lost all mine in year 2 of this guys tenure.