What would you do vs what Whitman will do

What would you do?

  • Fire no matter what happens, (short of a miracle run to the Final 4).

    Votes: 35 13.4%

  • Fire if less than a Sweet 16 run.

    Votes: 26 9.9%

  • Fire if less than a NCAA bid.

    Votes: 113 43.1%

  • Fire if losses to Rutgers and first round of BTT.

    Votes: 29 11.1%

  • Keep with one more win

    Votes: 29 11.1%

  • Keep no matter what

    Votes: 21 8.0%

  • Whitman will keep

    Votes: 118 45.0%

  • Whitman will fire

    Votes: 36 13.7%
  • Total voters
    262
#26      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Sal Iacuzzo said:
The fact that Groce's team don't quit is one of his strongest points in his favor
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I guess it depends on how you define quit. If you mean they didn't quit on the season, I agree. If you mean they play hard every game, and don't take breaks on the court, I disagree. They've either been lost or lackadaisical for half the season. I'm not suggesting it's intentional, just sayin. And I'll grant you every team has some ups and downs. We just seemed to really hit the down, hard.

I've resigned myself to the season going either way. I've seen a lot of bad coaching from Groce. OTOH, he's managed to recruit way better than his results, and we are showing signs of life now that Lucas has gotten past the early learning curve and is running the show. All I know is that this resurgence has been fun to watch. We play like it matters. Guys are taking chances and making plays. And we've been playing defense. Not great defense, but dialed in defense. If that's a sign of the future, I'll take it. But half a season isn't what I'd call a trend, especially compared to the prior 2. And yes, I thought the injury plagued season was also terribly coached.

If Whitman believes Groce is the future of Illinois basketball, I sure hope the last 3 weeks were a turning point.
 
#27      

IlliniOllie

I
IlliniOllie
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
I think MD fans are a lot like ours. That 2002 title change their perception of where they "should" be. Just like us with 1989 and 2005. Once you get a taste of that level it's tough to accept being well below it.
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Aside from it being a million times worse being an Illinois fan - Maryland actually got their title - I absolutely agree.

This ties in perfectly with why I just can't get my head around wanting to see Groce retained. We've seen national championship level coaching here. Lou Henson in the '80s. Lon Kruger and Bill Self's players and teams, including a #1 seed in 2001. Even Weber with Self's roster was able to coach them within a few points of a national title, before it all fell apart.

What in the world has anyone seen that makes them think that John Groce can be anything even remotely approaching national title level? He can't even get over .500 in conference once. At best, he "figures it out" and becomes what, a middle-of-the-pack Big Ten coach who makes the NCAAs half the time and tops out at 12-6 every once in a while? He's got a roster with plenty of experience and talent (including a top-five all time scorer) this year, and is looking at barely squeaking into the NCAAs at best after getting clowned by the top of the conference in January.

And recruiting? We've finally got one really good recruit coming in to complement a decent class. Those guys were bringing in Frank Williams and Brian Cook and Dee Brown along with plenty of other solid guys, and coaching them up all over the place.

Why settle for Groce? We managed to hire two great college coaches in a row. We can hire that guy again. And if this new coach isn't the right guy? Don't desperately cling to him and keep him around too long, either. Keep trying until we find "our guy".
 
#28      

alaskaillini

A
alaskaillini
Yeah, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Michigan and Ohio State have all made final fours and Maryland an Elite 8 in the last 5 years. Given the lack of competitive programs, we should have no trouble finding a coach who can come in and win B1G titles, no problem. If he can't get it done in a couple of years, then he's gone. We just need to do that til we find that guy. Sounds like a recipe for success. Shake and Bake.
 
#29      

CAHALL15

C
Central Illinois
CAHALL15
I would be making changes, but I don't think Whitman will unless there is a loss to Rutgers or perhaps an NIT bid.

The bubble is pretty weak this year so if we make it, it's for that reason alone. I'll reluctantly say that if we make the tournament, Groce can stay for one more year, but needs to get rid of Ford and/or Parham. I said at the beginning of the year that it's a tournament bid or bust for Groce, but I am so sour on Groce right now that I'll split the difference and ask for assistant coaching changes. A loss to Rutgers or an NIT bid results in Groce being gone.
 
#30      

Snyder005

S
Snyder005
If Groce is to be retained we need a shake up in the assistant coaches. The recent win streak has done a lot to stop the bleeding but I think we need some change in the coaching staff to at least appease the fan base.
 
#31      

JudsonFTS

J
JudsonFTS
I think Groce stays now. After Crean gets dumped, Whitman-Groce show the stones to bring back Judson to the beloved as an X's and O's guy.
 
#32      

alexander58

A
alexander58
JudsonFTS said:
I think Groce stays now. After Crean gets dumped, Whitman-Groce show the stones to bring back Judson to the beloved as an X's and O's guy.
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I think most realize Groce will be here next year. His relationship with Whitman and recent play have cemented his position. I think this years early struggles were largely result of loyalty to his upperclassmen who stayed and worked hard. Unfortunately for them, their passion wasn't matched by their abilities.
 
#33      

FiveStar

F
FiveStar
JudsonFTS said:
I think Groce stays now. After Crean gets dumped, Whitman-Groce show the stones to bring back Judson to the beloved as an X's and O's guy.
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I agree with the overall X's and O's idea, but I also want to give some credit where it's due. Starting with the game at northwestern I feel like we saw new sets/counters, that I don't remember from any year of the Groce era (I really love sets and I write a lot down so I can remember them). We've gotten a lot of clean looks in the games since then from some specific calls made from the bench. I hope this is indicative of a larger trend, and if we do hire an x and o guy, he just increase the rate of our current upward movement.
 
#34      

JudsonFTS

J
JudsonFTS
FiveStar said:
I agree with the overall X's and O's idea, but I also want to give some credit where it's due. Starting with the game at northwestern I feel like we saw new sets/counters, that I don't remember from any year of the Groce era (I really love sets and I write a lot down so I can remember them). We've gotten a lot of clean looks in the games since then from some specific calls made from the bench. I hope this is indicative of a larger trend, and if we do hire an x and o guy, he just increase the rate of our current upward movement.
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Agree. Defense has gotten better, but so has the offense.

Better ball movement. Better screen action. Better spacing around Mav in the post. All this plus the fighting mentality since the rotation was figured out has led to better looks and better shooting percentage.

Anyone think Tracy and TJL are getting further from their injuries and thus quicker?
 
#35      

dweebs19

dweebs19
dweebs19
Heard Dick Vitale on the radio yesterday say that Groce and Crean deserve to stay and not get fired.
 
#36      

IlliniOllie

I
IlliniOllie
alaskaillini said:
Yeah, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Michigan and Ohio State have all made final fours and Maryland an Elite 8 in the last 5 years. Given the lack of competitive programs, we should have no trouble finding a coach who can come in and win B1G titles, no problem. If he can't get it done in a couple of years, then he's gone. We just need to do that til we find that guy. Sounds like a recipe for success. Shake and Bake.
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So let's give up and settle for mediocrity (as our ceiling, in a good year)? I guess those programs will always be better than us, so we might as well give up. If you're happy with that, well, good luck.

And five years is not "a couple."
 
#38      

FinalFour88

FinalFour88
Charlotte, NC
FinalFour88
IlliniOllie said:
What in the world has anyone seen that makes them think that John Groce can be anything even remotely approaching national title level? He can't even get over .500 in conference once. At best, he "figures it out" and becomes what, a middle-of-the-pack Big Ten coach who makes the NCAAs half the time and tops out at 12-6 every once in a while? He's got a roster with plenty of experience and talent (including a top-five all time scorer) this year, and is looking at barely squeaking into the NCAAs at best after getting clowned by the top of the conference in January.
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And yet he's shown ZERO indication in the last five years that he's capable of coaching a team to a 12-6 Big Ten record.

I think Whitman will keep him another year. But I say if he can't reach at least 10 Big Ten wins next year, he's gone. No more excuses. He'll be playing a lot of freshmen next year -- so what, win 10+ in the Big Ten anyway.
 
#39      

IlliniOllie

I
IlliniOllie
FinalFour88 said:
And yet he's shown ZERO indication in the last five years that he's capable of coaching a team to a 12-6 Big Ten record.

I think Whitman will keep him another year. But I say if he can't reach at least 10 Big Ten wins next year, he's gone. No more excuses. He'll be playing a lot of freshmen next year -- so what, win 10+ in the Big Ten anyway.
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Oh, there will be excuses. Just like the flowers, they stay safely underground during the dark days of January, and then sprout up every spring. :thumb:
 
#40      

drillini

D
Lindenhurst, IL
drillini
I think he will stay even though if we don't make the tournament then in my opinion he should go. I agree with a previous poster who stated that Groce is too slow in making rotation decisions, I guess really any decision. I believe most of us saw the need to give Lewis more minutes early on. We also thought the rotation pattern was ridiculous. Now that the rotation is down to basically 8 guys, we have been playing better. The players know their roles better and are more comfortable with a consistent group of guys on the floor, thus our offense and defense has improved.

My big question is whether Groce can carry this over to next season and make decisions sooner as to rotation and having the best players out there. After 5 seasons, I am doubting that and almost feel this has just happened out of necessity, not a defined strategy or a sudden "light bulb" going on.
 
#41      

dweebs19

dweebs19
dweebs19
what people are hoping is that since he has no seniors next year, he will have nbd to be loyal to and will have to play his best players.
 
#42      

SycIllini

S
Sycamore, Illinois
SycIllini
Did anyone else notice in MSU game late time outs it looked like Ford was sitting down doing the talking rather than Groce? At least early in the timeouts. Or am I imagining things?
 
#43      

ChazzReinhold

ChazzReinhold
Mom! The Meatloaf!
ChazzReinhold
SycIllini said:
Did anyone else notice in MSU game late time outs it looked like Ford was sitting down doing the talking rather than Groce? At least early in the timeouts. Or am I imagining things?
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It's possible and not that unusual. It was a NW assistant, not Collins, who drew up that last play against Michigan.
 
#44      

Tempo34

Tempo34
Tempo34
Calvin said:
I guess it depends on how you define quit. If you mean they didn't quit on the season, I agree. If you mean they play hard every game, and don't take breaks on the court, I disagree. They've either been lost or lackadaisical for half the season. I'm not suggesting it's intentional, just sayin. And I'll grant you every team has some ups and downs. We just seemed to really hit the down, hard.

I've resigned myself to the season going either way. I've seen a lot of bad coaching from Groce. OTOH, he's managed to recruit way better than his results, and we are showing signs of life now that Lucas has gotten past the early learning curve and is running the show. All I know is that this resurgence has been fun to watch. We play like it matters. Guys are taking chances and making plays. And we've been playing defense. Not great defense, but dialed in defense. If that's a sign of the future, I'll take it. But half a season isn't what I'd call a trend, especially compared to the prior 2. And yes, I thought the injury plagued season was also terribly coached.

If Whitman believes Groce is the future of Illinois basketball, I sure hope the last 3 weeks were a turning point.
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I don't understand how when you add up the total percentage of the poll it gets to like 150%.
 
#45      

Andy Kaufman

A
Andy Kaufman
I'm not sure what Whitman will do regarding JG. Possibly the late winning streak bought him another year. However, I'm afraid it will be more of the same, with the excuse that the new freshmen need time. I listened to Maverick Morgan's post game interview posted yesterday and when asked what JG drew up during the final time out, he could not answer the question. First of all, the TO should of not been called at that time but most of all, I have my doubts that JG said anything meaningful during the wasted TO. I truly believe a new coach is needed to move the program forward.
 
#46      

PlayAZ

P
PlayAZ
Fired if no NCAA, it really is the only parameter that makes sense going into the season with the team (seniors/experienced/level of talent) all things considered. At some point the conversation had to have happened....Coach ya gotta make this happen or.....RIGHT?

Whitman will now, (givin the talk did happen at some point) make the call and move us along, but with whom?
 
#47      

bleedsorangenblue

bleedsorangenblue
C-U
bleedsorangenblue
If there had been an option in the poll of Fire if lose to Rutgers, I would have chosen it. As it was, I chose if lose to Rutgers and first round in BTT. I am not sure if a first round win would be enough to justify keeping him at this point. I need to see more to be convinced. I see benefits and pitfalls to both sides of the choice but that was one awful ending to a basketball game that was in hand. I am just numb and am at the point where I don't care if he stays or goes. I hope that Whitman makes the right decision and will remain a fan regardless of what happens. There just need to be a better product on the floor than what we have seen this year.
 
#48      

PlayAZ

P
PlayAZ
bleedsorangenblue said:
If there had been an option in the poll of Fire if lose to Rutgers, I would have chosen it. As it was, I chose if lose to Rutgers and first round in BTT. I am not sure if a first round win would be enough to justify keeping him at this point. I need to see more to be convinced. I see benefits and pitfalls to both sides of the choice but that was one awful ending to a basketball game that was in hand. I am just numb and am at the point where I don't care if he stays or goes. I hope that Whitman makes the right decision and will remain a fan regardless of what happens. There just need to be a better product on the floor than what we have seen this year.
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The final sentence on this is probably the most appropriate, regardless of everything else stated....the product for the business (yes not a sport) is the most crucial moving forward...right now the product is less than desirable. Most people want to pay (donors) for desirable things...
 
#49      

Goldtop

Goldtop
Goldtop
What is "the right discussion"? The answer to that question isn't the one that we on this forum want or like, but rather the discussion that brings back success to this program. And that won't be know either way for a few years.

I feel similarly in this situation as I did when Lovie Smith was fired from the Bears. I thought it was probably what had to be done. But thought the overwhelming optimism that firing Smith would bring quick success back to the program was short sited. And I cautioned a few people that things might get worse not better. Unfortunately it has been the former.

With Groce we have the added element of a very good recruiting class that has potential to get even better. If Groce is let go, and we lose 2 or possibly 3 (Smith?) recruits, this program is going to be in world of hurt. It would be very difficult for any coach to come in and turn this program around quickly. My guess would be it would then take at least 3 more years. This is why Whitman gets the "big bucks" as they say. We can talk about what we would do to our hearts content with out any consequences, but Whitmans job is also riding on what he does.
 
#50      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Given this last game, I am curious how Whitman can retain Groce when so many supporters will have a sour taste in their mouth about him. If you don't part with Groce after missing the NCAA 4 seasons in a row, with a contract that was set up just for this potential, when on earth would be a good time?

Doing nothing isn't an option given his contract, so extending Groce should be a tough sell, and indicate JW is all-in on Groce. Let's face it, if you extend Groce after this season, you're putting YOUR job on the line for him. If he hires someone new and it doesn't work out, he could very well a pass for circumstances, and get another shot at it.

Another thing that troubles me as a fan, is that if you extend a coach for having performed several seasons for being 80th in the nation, then you're saying that's where the bar is for Illinois. Personally I don't think that should be the answer.