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Old Jun 2, 2010, 02:00 PM   #1
IntenselyOrange
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I thought there was a thread on this topic but could only find one regarding the murder of the abortion clinic doctor from last year.

Anyway, this was in the NYT last week.

To summarize, abortion advocates are arguing that a woman shouldn't be required to know the status of or see her unborn child before ending the pregnancy.

I lean pro-choice for the first 18 weeks or so, if only because I think ample time for first trimester screening and the contemplation that might follow must be offered. However, I think that a woman should know exactly what she is doing. I've always believed that ignorance is the cause of most if not all of our problems in this world and I just don't understand why people would be pushing for people to be allowed to make uninformed decisions. That only leads people to use this as a form of birth control rather than modifying their life for the better.

Thoughts?
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Old Jun 2, 2010, 02:13 PM   #2
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Really? Is there a need to discuss abortion on IL? Worst and most divisive topic EVER.


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Old Jun 2, 2010, 02:17 PM   #3
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This thread isn't going to end well for anyone
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Old Jun 2, 2010, 02:20 PM   #4
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3...2...1...
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Old Jun 2, 2010, 02:34 PM   #5
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3...2...1...
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Old Jun 2, 2010, 03:22 PM   #6
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I think we can debate and debate and debate till our heads turn blue...I don't think it is going to change people's mind one bit. I think it takes something personal/close to them for them to be swayed one way or the other.

FYI: I = pro-life
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Old Jun 2, 2010, 03:42 PM   #7
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:laugh::laugh::laugh:
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Old Jun 2, 2010, 04:13 PM   #8
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I think we can debate and debate and debate till our heads turn blue...I don't think it is going to change people's mind one bit. I think it takes something personal/close to them for them to be swayed one way or the other.

FYI: I = pro-life
Often people's opinions on this can be modified over time as they consider other opinions rationally. The presentation can make a big difference. Abortion as a all or nothing (always ok or always wrong) proposition is particulary difficult for people to swallow IMO.

I can see an argument for not forcing a woman to have an ultrasound. It is a traumatic decision being made. Many women have lifelong feelings of guilt over their decision to abort. Adding a family snapshot of the child before it is expelled would probably make that worse.

I think the argument in favor of it is that it might very well change some women's minds if they realized how human an 18 week old fetus is. It simply is not a clump of cells like some would have us believe.

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Old Jun 2, 2010, 05:36 PM   #9
Illini1956
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I have seen bumper stickers that say you can not be Christian and pro abortion and Can not be Catholic and pro abortion and I do find it hard to believe anyone can argue for a woman to be able to Kill their own child. 18 weeks is 4 and one half months and well on the way torward viability.
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Old Jun 2, 2010, 05:48 PM   #10
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Really? Is there a need to discuss abortion on IL? Worst and most divisive topic EVER.

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Old Jun 3, 2010, 11:53 AM   #11
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We are all pro-choice; all we differ on is when that choice is made. Some of us believe that once an individual willingly and voluntarily engages in an act that he or she knows can result in the creation of life, then their choice has been made. On the other hand, you also have liberal lunatics that believe that choice can be delayed until just before the fetus gets in the limo for his or her Senior Prom.

One thing I can say is that after dating a woman that has had an abortion (shocking to all of you on this board, I know. It was hidden from me until the very end), stay far, far away. Somehow that procedure royally whacks a woman's brain for the rest of her life and it just isn't worth the hassle.
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Old Jun 3, 2010, 05:48 PM   #12
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I'm against abortion but for killing babies.

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Old Jun 3, 2010, 07:54 PM   #13
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I'm pro abortion when idiot's reach their 20's and older and are still idiots. Then it's a good thing. killing babies not good at all.
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Old Jun 4, 2010, 05:34 AM   #14
IntenselyOrange
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In retrospect I should have realized that no good would come of posting that article. I had hoped to understand the fear of the advocates regarding actual education. More than 50% of the women who get abortions are under the age of 25 so I think as a society we should educate them and give them counseling because this is absolutely not an easy decision. I don't doubt that some of the motivation is to reduce abortions - but if the woman comes to that decision by herself once she has all the information isn't that a good thing? BoK, in a way that only he could, touched on the damage that is done to women who do have an abortion and I think it is actually pro-woman to do everything we can to educate these young women before they undergo a procedure that will in many ways define their lives.

Anyway, I won't bump this thread again unless there is real discussion. Hopefully those of you that immediately jump off the handle can begin to read things and engage in specific discussions rather than assuming everything about abortion is whether it should or should not be legal.
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Old Jun 4, 2010, 12:12 PM   #15
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ooops..Sorry IO for the drive by. I'm heading back out but will try to engage in actual discussion later if time permits. I was just having a little fun earlier.
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Old Jun 5, 2010, 10:21 PM   #16
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potential versus actual

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Originally Posted by Illini1956 View Post
I have seen bumper stickers that say you can not be Christian and pro abortion and Can not be Catholic and pro abortion and I do find it hard to believe anyone can argue for a woman to be able to Kill their own child. 18 weeks is 4 and one half months and well on the way torward viability.
Fetus does not equal child. A potential is not an actual. An acorn isn't a tree. Also, humans are not barnyard animals. They have a right to decide if they want to reproduce or not (at least in a free country). I suppose that it's ok for people to murder doctors that are actual humans, though, if they terminate unwanted pregnancies. The logic escapes me.
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Old Jun 5, 2010, 10:41 PM   #17
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the human embryo

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I'm pro abortion when idiot's reach their 20's and older and are still idiots. Then it's a good thing. killing babies not good at all.
Most people that go through a high school biology class learn about the developmental stages of the human embryo. A blastula, zygote, and a fetus are not babies until they are capable of living outside of a mother. "Killing babies" would be killing something that has been born or could be viable if removed from the uterus. No one favors killing babies, unless one looks at China or ancient Greece where defective "babies," especially females, are left to die.
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Old Jun 5, 2010, 10:49 PM   #18
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being there

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Originally Posted by Illini1956 View Post
I have seen bumper stickers that say you can not be Christian and pro abortion and Can not be Catholic and pro abortion and I do find it hard to believe anyone can argue for a woman to be able to Kill their own child. 18 weeks is 4 and one half months and well on the way torward viability.
Being on the way to something isn't being there. Going to the airport isn't arriving at one's destination. Those of you who consider yourselves to be Christians, I wonder how many of you have actually read the Bible. If so, do you agree with stoning to death disobedient children? Is this practice better or worse than abortion of unwanted fetuses. Stoning is unquestionably murder, but interrupting the development of a fetus is not until viability is actually achieved.
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Old Jun 6, 2010, 07:31 AM   #19
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Pro Choice, and let their maker sort out their afterlife.

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Old Jun 6, 2010, 08:43 AM   #20
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Being on the way to something isn't being there. Going to the airport isn't arriving at one's destination. Those of you who consider yourselves to be Christians, I wonder how many of you have actually read the Bible. If so, do you agree with stoning to death disobedient children? Is this practice better or worse than abortion of unwanted fetuses. Stoning is unquestionably murder, but interrupting the development of a fetus is not until viability is actually achieved.
Christians don't believe in adhering to everything in the old testament literally, something we learn partly by studying and reading the new testament. Nice try though.

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Old Jun 6, 2010, 08:57 AM   #21
Illini1956
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Originally Posted by IntenselyOrange View Post
I thought there was a thread on this topic but could only find one regarding the murder of the abortion clinic doctor from last year.

Anyway, this was in the NYT last week.

To summarize, abortion advocates are arguing that a woman shouldn't be required to know the status of or see her unborn child before ending the pregnancy.

I lean pro-choice for the first 18 weeks or so, if only because I think ample time for first trimester screening and the contemplation that might follow must be offered. However, I think that a woman should know exactly what she is doing. I've always believed that ignorance is the cause of most if not all of our problems in this world and I just don't understand why people would be pushing for people to be allowed to make uninformed decisions. That only leads people to use this as a form of birth control rather than modifying their life for the better.

Thoughts?

The same reason our history and US Constitution are no longer taught or often misrepresented. We no longer have history as part of the ACT test.

The press went to great lengths to not cover obama associates and his background before the election.

The women need to be educated, it is a human baby in early development. The baby will never become a monkey, dog or cat, it is human. It is truly disturbing that turtle eggs and bald eagle eggs have more protection than a human baby. The egg is still not hatched, but you better believe the egg is protected.
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Old Jun 6, 2010, 09:00 AM   #22
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Fetus does not equal child. A potential is not an actual. An acorn isn't a tree. Also, humans are not barnyard animals. They have a right to decide if they want to reproduce or not (at least in a free country).
Isn't it funny that the people that advocate for abortion without limitation (like Kagan and everyone that supports her for example) are interested in the fair treatment of barnyard animals but feel that abortion of viable children is legitimate. Of course these same hypocrites want to put the mother in jail for not using a car seat until age 20. Mom who slaughters an innocent 28 week gestational child - hero. Mom who doesn't breast feed - demon. :rolleyes:

BTW, there was slavery in this free country just a 150 years ago. That did not make it right. Just because abortion is legal today doesn't mean kids won't be reading about it in the history books a hundred years hence wondering how people could not see the simple comparison between abolitionists and pro-life supporters.

Quote:
I suppose that it's ok for people to murder doctors that are actual humans, though, if they terminate unwanted pregnancies. The logic escapes me.
But Tiller killed children up to the age of delivery. His murderer is no hero in my book but he has probably saved more human beings lives than most of us. And before anyone starts waxing poetic about how Tiller was a family man, let me remind you that Adolf Eichmann had 4 kids and a wife and I hear he was a blast at parties. Despite that, he and Tiller are slowly roasting on a barbeque in Hell if there is any justice in the world.

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Last edited by DaytonIllini; Jun 6, 2010 at 09:04 AM.
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Old Jun 6, 2010, 09:54 PM   #23
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rational standards

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Christians don't believe in adhering to everything in the old testament literally, something we learn partly by studying and reading the new testament. Nice try though.
So I take it that certain parts of the Bible are God's word and others not. And how does one decide which is which? If the Bible is the source of morality and God specifically states that one tribe is superior to all others and has the right to invade occupied territories and slaughter every living thing in it, then by what rational standard does one protect the life of a fetus? If one is free to correct God's word, by what reason should one follow the word at all?
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Old Jun 6, 2010, 10:01 PM   #24
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Human babies

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Originally Posted by Illini1956 View Post
The same reason our history and US Constitution are no longer taught or often misrepresented. We no longer have history as part of the ACT test.

The press went to great lengths to not cover obama associates and his background before the election.

The women need to be educated, it is a human baby in early development. The baby will never become a monkey, dog or cat, it is human. It is truly disturbing that turtle eggs and bald eagle eggs have more protection than a human baby. The egg is still not hatched, but you better believe the egg is protected.
A future thing isn't a present thing unless they are identical. Using terms like "human baby" in the abortion context is a transparent attempt to mislead people and to rely upon emotions rather than facts. The reason that there are scientific terms to classify developmental stages of the embryo is because we are delaing with something less than an independent living entity. Calling a fetus a baby is the equivalent of calling a caterpillar a butterfly. Certainly the difference is clear.
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Old Jun 6, 2010, 10:12 PM   #25
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logical argumentation

[QUOTE=DaytonIllini;316606]Isn't it funny that the people that advocate for abortion without limitation (like Kagan and everyone that supports her for example) are interested in the fair treatment of barnyard animals but feel that abortion of viable children is legitimate. Of course these same hypocrites want to put the mother in jail for not using a car seat until age 20. Mom who slaughters an innocent 28 week gestational child - hero. Mom who doesn't breast feed - demon. :rolleyes:

BTW, there was slavery in this free country just a 150 years ago. That did not make it right. Just because abortion is legal today doesn't mean kids won't be reading about it in the history books a hundred years hence wondering how people could not see the simple comparison between abolitionists and pro-life supporters.

I was hoping to find some logical argumentation in this verbiage, but I didn't find any. Do human beings have the right to decide whether or not they reproduce, or are they merely breeding animals? What about those women who are raped, are impoverished, or have their health impaired by an unwanted pregnancy? One does not score any points by using the most extreme examples as an argument against a practice. One could just as easily say that one shouldn't drink water because drinking too much will kill you.

Would you agree that a five week old fetus can be terminated without it being considered murder of a human being? Should birth control be practiced, or is it a sin? Please state your premises and defend it without appealing to emotions, and then you may have a case worth considering.
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