2019-20 Coaching Discussion/Carousel

[Deleted member 654622]

Of course not, but one can extrapolate re; the type of talent you are going to attract - and they do in the article. Its probably not what most of the higher talent skilled O players are looking to run to. My point is not that it's not viable (not exactly a lofty goal), rather that its boring to watch and you are not likely to get the talent we built a very expensive center for. And, we could very likely lose most of our skilled O players for the chance at new offense that may possibly work. We can all salivate on how great a particular player might fit the offense, but if they didn't come here to play that offense and don't like it - it really doesn't matter does it.

Just an observation, but the triple option theme appears geared toward consistent 5-6 win seasons. If that is what the collective Illini nation is pumped up for - well, seems sad.

Our problem is our defense clearly and obviously. If we had a 2nd or 3rd year QB running our offense we would be completely fine - but we've had the unfortunate circumstance of not being stable in that position over many years. 99% of the discussion on change should be geared towards fixing our defensive.

I cant hit the like button on this enough! This is the table I am sitting at as well

 

[Deleted member 654622]

Jeff Monken went:

Georgia State
10-5
11-3
10-4
7-4

Army
4-8
2-10
8-5
10-3
11-2
3-1(so far)

Hardly 6 win seasons.

The guy has been successful at his current level. No doubt.

 

[Deleted member 654622]

What you like if you’re looking at the issues that are hindering us currently is that Craig Bohl and his staff have a long, long history of getting kids to play above their recruiting rankings. We all know the Carson Wentz and Josh Allen stories but those are simply two examples of many. Marcus Epps was a no star walk on from California (A state Bohl surprisingly signs a TON of kids from). Brian Hill was a 2* kid with a 247 composite .75 ranking, Chase Roullier was a 2* kid with a .78 ranking. Billy Turner was unranked by 247, Kyle Emanuel was unranked by 247, Joe Haeg was unranked by 247. All of these players went on to have award winning college careers, all of them were drafted into the NFL and I believe all of them are still active players (As in, they didn’t hang out around practice squads for a couple of years and then finally hang em up while still saying they “played in the NFL”).

When you run a program like the one he’s got in Laramie, you have understand your limitations as it relates to HS talent acquisition and find a way to be successful despite them. Bohl and his staff of experienced collegiate assistants has aced that one.

Before 2016-2017, the last time Wyoming had gone to back-to-back bowl games? 1987-1988 and 1966-1967.

Results of coaching kids up looks great. Need to show HS recruits that a staff can get you to the NFL. Perhaps we are on the brink of that with Lovie? (not the point of the post). I wanted to touch on the California tidbit. It's great he is able to land Cally dudes. But there is a realistic chance a lot of that goes away if he starts trying to get them to go 1,000 miles more east.

 

[ChiefGritty]

Hyperbole might be a tad strong there, as Dan Mullen has not recruited a top 10 class to Gainesville as of yet whereas Will Muschamp ran one of the best recruiting classes I’ve ever seen outside of Saban and Dabo into the ground.

Will Muschamp is a difference making recruiter. He's a difference making in-game coach too, just not the difference in the right direction

Mullen got the #9 class to Florida last year, so technically he meets the qualification I set out, but really he was just a pretty good recruiter at Mississippi State, who proved able to get more out of that talent level than others could. That's the same sell for him at Florida (where the natural talent base will be higher), and that would be the same sell for Jim McElwain. It's a good sell, we can win games that way so long as we recruit smartly and well enough, which is well within McElwain's reach. But to look at him like another Ron Zook would be wrong across multiple dimensions, he's very nearly the exact opposite, Florida pink slip notwithstanding.

 

[KBLEE]

I want a disciplined, winning team. I don’t care what schemes it runs.

https://www.recordonline.com/article/20131231/SPORTS36/312310323

Growing up, the Army-Navy game was must-see TV in the Monken house. When Jeff went to Millikin University, the tradition continued.
“I remember sitting there watching it in my dorm room and the entire game there wasn’t a single penalty by either team” in 1986, Jeff Monken said. “That was amazing to watch that discipline. To be a part of that as a coach is just an amazing experience. I’m looking forward to that game again. It’s a special game like no other.”

 

[ChiefGritty]

I'm against Monken, if it doesn't work with him, we will have a roster full of players that aren't as good, because he will under recruit and make the situation even harder for the next guy.

Geoff Collins' first year transitioning Georgia Tech away from that system is being watched very closely by anyone interested in hiring Monken, that's for sure. Losing to The Citadel (running the triple option, ironically) isn't going to calm those nerves.

 

[Twangers]

Will Muschamp is a difference making recruiter. He's a difference making in-game coach too, just not the difference in the right direction

Mullen got the #9 class to Florida last year, so technically he meets the qualification I set out, but really he was just a pretty good recruiter at Mississippi State, who proved able to get more out of that talent level than others could. That's the same sell for him at Florida (where the natural talent base will be higher), and that would be the same sell for Jim McElwain. It's a good sell, we can win games that way so long as we recruit smartly and well enough, which is well within McElwain's reach. But to look at him like another Ron Zook would be wrong across multiple dimensions, he's very nearly the exact opposite, Florida pink slip notwithstanding.

The ranking for Florida in 2019 is incorrect, unfortunately. It includes Diwun Black, who never enrolled and I believe ended up going the JuCo route. He’s a 247 composite .93 4* star kid that they have factored.

When he’s eliminated, their score falls outside the top 10.

 

[ChiefGritty]

The ranking for Florida in 2019 is incorrect, unfortunately. It includes Diwun Black, who never enrolled and I believe ended up going the JuCo route. He’s a 247 composite .93 4* star kid that they have factored.

When he’s eliminated, their score falls outside the top 10.

Boy I get the feeling you and I are going to have a fun couple of months here.

En garde!

 

[Ramrod2010]

This is going to be some Spy vs Spy stuff here between Twangers and Gritty. Should be entertaining opcorn:

 

[ChiefGritty]

This is going to be some Spy vs Spy stuff here between Twangers and Gritty. Should be entertaining opcorn:

When you're arguing whether not counting an individual recruit in Florida's recruiting class is a methodologically rigorous way to assess whether Central Michigan's coach should be hired by Illinois, you are truly in Shaka Watch mode, friends. Giddy up.

 

[Ander1345]

Definitely valid concerns, and if a change is made you just have to hope they make the right choice.

Can you believe the last time we had double digit wins in a season was 18 years ago? Sorry if this ruins anyone's day in advance.

 

[Twangers]

When you're arguing whether not counting an individual recruit in Florida's recruiting class is a methodologically rigorous way to assess whether Central Michigan's coach should be hired by Illinois, you are truly in Shaka Watch mode, friends. Giddy up.

I did go further down the rabbit hole than intended but the truth has prevailed and I feel vindicated (For those unable to tell, this a joke).

Bottom line, his tenure in Florida (And Colorado State) showed a strong ability to recruit, build a high quality staff and ultimately win. Will Muschamp stumbled (Somehow) to a 4 win season there, two years later McElwain has them winning 10 games and playing for the SEC Championship. The off-field stuff is definitely a valid concern. I don't know enough about the man to say whether or not those problems were isolated to the situation in Florida. What I do know is that the resume he has on paper is better than what I believe a normal candidate for this job would possess and yet, he's legitimately attainable.

If he takes CMU to 5 or more wins this season, a year removed from that 1-11 debacle (Despite adding Dormady), he's in my top 3.

 

[EthanM]

Geoff Collins' first year transitioning Georgia Tech away from that system is being watched very closely by anyone interested in hiring Monken, that's for sure. Losing to The Citadel (running the triple option, ironically) isn't going to calm those nerves.

This. I was talking about hiring Monken with a buddy of mine, who is a Nebraska fan. He follows CFB pretty closely and is way more knowledgeable than me. He pointed out that hiring Monken means that not only are you committing probably a full 4 years to him to get a full roster of guys experienced in the system, but if Monken fails, you're looking at another 4 years of a rebuild to get us back to a traditional offense. Considering that there is absolutely no guarantee that Monken (or any other coach) will come here and be successful, this is something that really must be considered. I don't know that this program can really handle another 8 to 10 years of mediocrity or rebuilding.

 

[Ander1345]

This. I was talking about hiring Monken with a buddy of mine, who is a Nebraska fan. He follows CFB pretty closely and is way more knowledgeable than me. He pointed out that hiring Monken means that not only are you committing probably a full 4 years to him to get a full roster of guys experienced in the system, but if Monken fails, you're looking at another 4 years of a rebuild to get us back to a traditional offense. Considering that there is absolutely no guarantee that Monken (or any other coach) will come here and be successful, this is something that really must be considered. I don't know that this program can really handle another 8 to 10 years of mediocrity or rebuilding.

If we're afraid what the program looks like after we have to fire someone we just hired, why even have a program?

If this program is operated like we are scared of success, not only are we just as likely to be doomed to mediocrity, but obscurity as well.

 

[Deleted member 654622]

I think a good question is what gives us the best odds to get to the top of the B1G?
1. Hire a Monken to raise the floor. If he takes us farther great. If not, bring in another coach to revamp at least a winning program
2. Keep hiring dudes hoping to find our Dabo

 

[ChiefGritty]

I was talking about hiring Monken with a buddy of mine, who is a Nebraska fan. He follows CFB pretty closely and is way more knowledgeable than me. He pointed out that hiring Monken means that not only are you committing probably a full 4 years to him to get a full roster of guys experienced in the system, but if Monken fails, you're looking at another 4 years of a rebuild to get us back to a traditional offense.

3 thoughts that spring to mind relating to your Nebraska buddy

1. Georgia Tech fired Chan Gailey, the personification of pro-style, and hired Johnson and won 9 games in year 1 and 10 (plus the ACC Championship) in year 2, beating ranked UNC, Miami, Florida State, Virginia Tech, Clemson and Georgia along the way.

2. When Nebraska had their midlife crisis and ditched Frank Solich and Tom Osborne's system in favor of a modern passing offense with Bill Callahan, it went better than people remember. They scored a ton of points, it was the Blackshirts side of the ball that fell apart.

3. The OC for Callahan's Nebraska that suddenly started throwing the ball all over the yard? Current Nevada HC Jay Norvell, an interesting guy to look at. It's quite a resume. My hesitation there is that despite beating Purdue and despite being 3-1, I have a suspicion they aren't actually that good. We'll see. If they end up with 9+ wins that will be a name you hear.

 

[LFOD]

If we're going to go with a Norvell, I'd prefer Mike over Jay.

 

[EyeoftheIllini]

3 thoughts that spring to mind relating to your Nebraska buddy

1. Georgia Tech fired Chan Gailey, the personification of pro-style, and hired Johnson and won 9 games in year 1 and 10 (plus the ACC Championship) in year 2, beating ranked UNC, Miami, Florida State, Virginia Tech, Clemson and Georgia along the way.

2. When Nebraska had their midlife crisis and ditched Frank Solich and Tom Osborne's system in favor of a modern passing offense with Bill Callahan, it went better than people remember. They scored a ton of points, it was the Blackshirts side of the ball that fell apart.

3. The OC for Callahan's Nebraska that suddenly started throwing the ball all over the yard? Current Nevada HC Jay Norvell, an interesting guy to look at. It's quite a resume. My hesitation there is that despite beating Purdue and despite being 3-1, I have a suspicion they aren't actually that good. We'll see. If they end up with 9+ wins that will be a name you hear.

To your #1, I wouldn’t know where to look but seems like transfers were a much smaller issue back in 2008. Guessing GT didn’t have many transferring out. Not likely to be the case if Illini went option

 

[LFOD]

If only it would were that simple. In order to first pick Mike over Jay, Mike has to want to pick us back.

Yep, I agree. It wouldn't be easy to snag Mike Norvell.

 

[Illini-Rule]

This. I was talking about hiring Monken with a buddy of mine, who is a Nebraska fan. He follows CFB pretty closely and is way more knowledgeable than me. He pointed out that hiring Monken means that not only are you committing probably a full 4 years to him to get a full roster of guys experienced in the system, but if Monken fails, you're looking at another 4 years of a rebuild to get us back to a traditional offense. Considering that there is absolutely no guarantee that Monken (or any other coach) will come here and be successful, this is something that really must be considered. I don't know that this program can really handle another 8 to 10 years of mediocrity or rebuilding.

I wouldn't say our last 8 - 10 years have been mediocre by any means. Unfortunately at this point mediocre sounds pretty good...

 

[Soxfreak64]

I'd happily take either Norvell. While I do like the possibility of Monken and the triple-option (while not preferred) isn't a deal breaker for me, I do think the system implementation on either side of his tenure is worth considering.

One shred of positivity I think we overlook in this terrible season: a good coach should be able to take next year's roster to six or seven wins, considering talent and schedule. There's a big drop off in 2021, but a strong 2020 campaign could really juice recruiting for a new staff and get their tenure off to a roaring start.

 

[ChiefGritty]

75-80% of the kids will have some type of commitment before next season starts

No, that's not true, it's closer to 50%.

But regardless, it's whatever percentage in the 2021 class, and then all the kids in the 2022 class before the other shoe falls.

 

[SouthFLILLINI]

I did go further down the rabbit hole than intended but the truth has prevailed and I feel vindicated (For those unable to tell, this a joke).

Bottom line, his tenure in Florida (And Colorado State) showed a strong ability to recruit, build a high quality staff and ultimately win. Will Muschamp stumbled (Somehow) to a 4 win season there, two years later McElwain has them winning 10 games and playing for the SEC Championship. The off-field stuff is definitely a valid concern. I don't know enough about the man to say whether or not those problems were isolated to the situation in Florida. What I do know is that the resume he has on paper is better than what I believe a normal candidate for this job would possess and yet, he's legitimately attainable.

If he takes CMU to 5 or more wins this season, a year removed from that 1-11 debacle (Despite adding Dormady), he's in my top 3.

I had CSU season tickets for 10 years. McElwain is a great offensive mind especially at CSU where he did not have the star power. He comes with baggage though. His last regular-season game against Air Force, he acted as if he didn't care because he knew he had the UF HC position. I also know that he had blow-ups in the lockerroom that were epic.

He didn't have the greatest staff there either and recruiting was so-so for the MWC. Maybe due to the money constrictions. Below is a quote from the UF AD after he fired JM. Also, a link with not so flattering comments.


“This (decision) is more than just wins and losses,” Stricklin said. “I’ll just leave it at that.”
McElwain has a way of rubbing a lot of people the wrong way. There’s an arrogance about him that overshadows the humble upbringing and Montana roots he so often evokes in an effort to relate to the common man.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/f...s-jim-mcelwain-way-left-colorado-state-staff/[/QUOTE]

 

[ChiefGritty]

No, it's 75-80 for the kids who generally reach 247's threshold for a 4* ranking. Of the current top 200 (As far as I cared to go), only 46 remain uncommitted (5 of which have 100% CBs). That is 23%, my friend. That means, by the time our season would presumably start to heat up and show progress, we're out of the loop. This doesn't even begin to factor things like location percentages, this is simply "how many kids have committed and when".

Rather than fight the narrow point further, I'll concede and reiterate that it then means for the 2022 class we fill 80% of it before taking the field in 2021.

 

[Twangers]

Rather than fight the narrow point further, I'll concede and reiterate that it then means for the 2022 class we fill 80% of it before taking the field in 2021.

Correct, which is what I alluded to earlier. Here’s where things get murky for us, the 2021 class may well be the single most important recruiting effort we’ve been faced with this decade. I haven’t run the numbers as I’ve only really focused on 2020 but roughly speaking, we need to sign every bit of 26 HS seniors. To try to hit those numbers and still maintain a higher quality of players with our current showing will be very, very difficult. 2021 isn’t our only potential rough year, 2022-20223 could be interesting.

This is where a coach like Jeff Monken or Craig Bohl is appealing. They have spent almost the entirety of their careers trying to do more with less.