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Old Dec 10, 2017, 10:19 AM   #1
KrushCow31
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As of last night, we currently are ranked #347/#351 for fouls per game (or #5/#351 depending on how ya feel). The only teams worse are:

Nicholls State: 26.0/game
Wagner: 25.2/game
Morehead State: 24.7/game
Portland State: 24.5/game
Illinois: 24.2/game

The next power 5 is Oregon at 340(23.1/game) and the next B1G is Nebraska at 225(19.5/game).

So all that being said, what do you think the reasoning is? We aren't the only team with young players, but could it be our youth? Is it the way we play? Our defensive set up? Hacking due to lack of a big man? A large multi conference conspiracy to defraud Illinois of an NCAA tournament bid?
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 10:23 AM   #2
foby
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A combination of all but the last one and add on playing teams with superior athletic ability like UNLV doesn't help. The Conzoo game could be another foul happy affair.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 10:44 AM   #3
Hoppy2105
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It's a change of defensive pressure I think. Finke, Black, Jordan, Lucas and Nichols all played in and were taught a different mindset on defense last year.

This year, we bring the pressure and we bring it hard but I don't think some of our guys have the athleticism to stay in front of their guy. Often that leads to a foul or a wide open dude under the basket.

I just wish if refs were going to call cheap fouls, it was on both sides of the court. We definitely fouled a lot last night, but that UNLV game was a good ol fashion home team homering of epic proportions.

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Old Dec 10, 2017, 11:15 AM   #4
pruman91
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Originally Posted by Hoppy2105 View Post
It's a change of defensive pressure I think. Finke, Black, Jordan, Lucas and Nichols all played in and were taught a different mindset on defense last year.

This year, we bring the pressure and we bring it hard but I don't think some of our guys have the athleticism to stay in front of their guy. Often that leads to a foul or a wide open dude under the basket.

I just wish if refs were going to call cheap fouls, it was on both sides of the court. We definitely fouled a lot last night, but that UNLV game was a good ol fashion home team homering of epic proportions.
Mark Smith was fouled multiple times driving or under the basket with no fouls called....we fouled plenty but the same contact by UNLV was not called...I was yelling at the screen many times about the no calls..are the refs deaf ?.....lol

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Old Dec 10, 2017, 11:22 AM   #5
Ransom Stoddard
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Mark Smith was fouled multiple times driving or under the basket with no fouls called....we fouled plenty but the same contact by UNLV was not called...I was yelling at the screen many times about the no calls..are the refs deaf ?.....lol
This is a well known phenomenon in athletics, observed at all levels of competition. It is known as the "homer perception bias" and is defined by the consistent perception that one's favorite sporting group is unfairly or disproportionately cited for rules violations.

See also "the Patriots get away with everything" and "Dukee Refs."

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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Old Dec 10, 2017, 11:22 AM   #6
whovous
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I wonder if it was the same with BU at OSU last year. Recall they began the Big 12 0-6, and then BU decided they could not handle the complicated defense he threw at them and made adjustments. Did OSU foul like crazy before he made the change last year, too?
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 12:04 PM   #7
KrushCow31
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Originally Posted by whovous View Post
I wonder if it was the same with BU at OSU last year. Recall they began the Big 12 0-6, and then BU decided they could not handle the complicated defense he threw at them and made adjustments. Did OSU foul like crazy before he made the change last year, too?
Good question. For the year, Oklahoma State finished 341/351 with 22.2/game. So the answer is, yes BU team last year also fouled a ton. Maybe it's a BU transition thing.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 12:09 PM   #8
KrushCow31
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BU team foul rankings:
UIUC:#347 24.2
OSU:#341 22.2
SFA:#277 20.9
SFA:#340 21.5
SFA:#289 20.8

Certainly seems like a trend that his teams, even after knowing his system, foul much more than your average team.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 12:27 PM   #9
FiveStar
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Originally Posted by KrushCow31 View Post
BU team foul rankings:
UIUC:#347 24.2
OSU:#341 22.2
SFA:#277 20.9
SFA:#340 21.5
SFA:#289 20.8

Certainly seems like a trend that his teams, even after knowing his system, foul much more than your average team.
Is that in reverse chronological order? Just trying to place the SFA yearís properly.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 12:28 PM   #10
Hoppy2105
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His 3 year average at SFA (biggest sample from one team) is 21.1. In those same 3 years, a barely in the top 100 fouling (non-fouling?) team would be committing 18 a game.

That is only 3 fouls different from upper 200s/300s to upper 10s. (90-100)

His OSU team was about 4 off of a top 100 team and we are currently about 4.5 off. There isn't a lot of discrepancy between teams that are "pretty good at not fouling" (90-100) and teams that foul a lot. (us)

If we can get to the low 20s and the refs call even games, I think BU will continue his winning ways.

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Old Dec 10, 2017, 12:33 PM   #11
FiveStar
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Originally Posted by Hoppy2105 View Post
His 3 year average at SFA (biggest sample from one team) is 21.1. In those same 3 years, a barely in the top 100 fouling (non-fouling?) team would be committing 18 a game.

That is only 3 fouls different from upper 200s/300s to upper 10s. (90-100)

His OSU team was about 4 off of a top 100 team and we are currently about 4.5 off. There isn't a lot of discrepancy between teams that are "pretty good at not fouling" (90-100) and teams that foul a lot. (us)

If we can get to the low 20s and the refs call even games, I think BU will continue his winning ways.
4-5 fouls per game is anywhere between 4-15 free throws, potentially. Not to mention the ramifications on minutes played by the best players to create the best lineups. 4-5 fouls per game might not sound like a lot, but your talking about cutting out 25%. Huge chunk.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 12:38 PM   #12
Illiini
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Homer ref perception is one thing, but Crean and the other guy--I don't know who by voices--were saying things like "UNLV got away with a travel" and being surprised that specific fouls were called on Illinois instead of UNLV. No doubt there still was a discrepancy--and perhaps the refs had a predilection to calling fouls on Illinois (insert Reagan "There you go again" gif here).

Clearly our guys need to clean up their game...and there needs to be more attacking the basket to draw those fouls so that they (whoever the they is) get in foul trouble and give us the freethrow points advantage.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 01:03 PM   #13
Hoppy2105
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Originally Posted by FiveStar View Post
4-5 fouls per game is anywhere between 4-15 free throws, potentially. Not to mention the ramifications on minutes played by the best players to create the best lineups. 4-5 fouls per game might not sound like a lot, but your talking about cutting out 25%. Huge chunk.
Let's just say it's somewhere in the middle of that range of 4-15. On average a team will shoot 10 more free throws per game. Let's say they hit on 80% (which is top end but still...).

That means our team needs to make up 8 points a game. We've shown that we can stay in games with insanely one sided calls (UNLV game is our recent example) so I feel it's not as insurmountable as you would think.

Also, as long as BU wants to and can continue to play 8-9 players and the drop off of talent isn't too drastic, the extra fouls won't hurt as much. Our bench seems to be keeping pace with our starters. If BU can help it, I'm sure he would like to keep it that way.

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Old Dec 10, 2017, 01:28 PM   #14
IlliniMed
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I'm sorry. Some of you trying to reason why ANY team should get 48 free throws to 15 is absolutely garbage. Do we foul ALOT? Yes.... but you're trying to tell me that the other team are perfect little angels? Just because a team plays hard does not mean they are committing MORE fouls. It just means they are playing harder. The other teams do the exact same thing and don't get called for it and its dumbfounding. Brad needs to blow up one of these days if he wants to get respect from the refs. Now lets say it was 48 free throws to 28 or something like that... ok fine.... but 15? 15? for a team that has a dude who is as tall as the sears tower? No, get out of here.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 01:39 PM   #15
KrushCow31
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Originally Posted by FiveStar View Post
Is that in reverse chronological order? Just trying to place the SFA yearís properly.
Chronological order from top to bottom.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:06 PM   #16
chief78
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Originally Posted by IlliniMed View Post
I'm sorry. Some of you trying to reason why ANY team should get 48 free throws to 15 is absolutely garbage. Do we foul ALOT? Yes.... but you're trying to tell me that the other team are perfect little angels? Just because a team plays hard does not mean they are committing MORE fouls. It just means they are playing harder. The other teams do the exact same thing and don't get called for it and its dumbfounding. Brad needs to blow up one of these days if he wants to get respect from the refs. Now lets say it was 48 free throws to 28 or something like that... ok fine.... but 15? 15? for a team that has a dude who is as tall as the sears tower? No, get out of here.
UNLV was soft. My son's high school team would have been knocking them down last night. They did not exactly flop, but went down easily at the slightest contact. It's really frustrating watching every little touch foul go against the Illini (I know, they do foul often), but many were not whistled on the Illini offensive end of the court, when similar touch fouls were committed by UNLV. It just needs to be the same rules, both ends of the court. It's hard to overcome such as large discrepancy in free throws (ala 2001 Arizona Elite 8 game) and to add to the challenge, have multiple players foul out. Even with all that said, our current group of frosh look to have some real potential. Add a serviceable big man, like Okoro, and they will be dancing in the years to come.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:19 PM   #17
blmillini
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I think it is a byproduct of an aggressive style of defense and lack of size. I am more concerned with turnovers than could. If we cut those down we will win most of our games regardless of fouls.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:21 PM   #18
Hoppy2105
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Originally Posted by IlliniMed View Post
I'm sorry. Some of you trying to reason why ANY team should get 48 free throws to 15 is absolutely garbage. Do we foul ALOT? Yes.... but you're trying to tell me that the other team are perfect little angels? Just because a team plays hard does not mean they are committing MORE fouls. It just means they are playing harder. The other teams do the exact same thing and don't get called for it and its dumbfounding. Brad needs to blow up one of these days if he wants to get respect from the refs. Now lets say it was 48 free throws to 28 or something like that... ok fine.... but 15? 15? for a team that has a dude who is as tall as the sears tower? No, get out of here.
I don't think many here are saying a discrepancy like last night should be normal. Just that we should expect to foul more than about 200 or so other teams.

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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:24 PM   #19
IlliniMed
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I don't think many here are saying a discrepancy like last night should be normal. Just that we should expect to foul more than about 200 or so other teams.
I'm fine with that. We're aggressive. But far too many times this year the Officials have taken over games. You think they would be calling these ticky tac fouls on wisco, michigan, UNC, etc? No. It starts with a culture change in what the head coach expects from the officiating going forward. What do I mean by that? Call. The. Games. Fairly.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:26 PM   #20
Hoppy2105
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I'm fine with that. We're aggressive. But far too many times this year the Officials have taken over games. You think they would be calling these ticky tac fouls on wisco, michigan, UNC, etc? No. It starts with a culture change in what the head coach expects from the officiating going forward. What do I mean by that? Call. The. Games. Fairly.
Definitely agree there!

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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:49 PM   #21
HTT
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There is no chance that every ref on earth hates us. The more likely reason behind this is that our coaching staff fails to adjust their coaching to the new rule change. It is way more realistic to expect our coaching staff to fix the problem than counting on the refs.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:56 PM   #22
alaskaillini
I think the number of fouls is high on BU teams because of the pace and style of defense. What were the rankings of those teams compared to TO forced? If you deducted the opposing teams TOs from the foul number or divided to get fouls/possession, you might get a more accurate (or at least interesting) statistic for comparison of BU led teams fouling propensity. I know I would much rather watch a team flying around half out of control than one that sits back and lets the other team dictate.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:57 PM   #23
FiveStar
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Originally Posted by HTT View Post
There is no chance that every ref on earth hates us. The more likely reason behind this is that our coaching staff fails to adjust their coaching to the new rule change. It is way more realistic to expect our coaching staff to fix the problem than counting on the refs.
I think the general sentiment among coaches is that itís worth the aggression because itís not like the refs are gonna call every foul.

Yesterday the refs called every foul.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:58 PM   #24
4on4atIMPE
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Originally Posted by KrushCow31 View Post
BU team foul rankings:
UIUC:#347 24.2
OSU:#341 22.2
SFA:#277 20.9
SFA:#340 21.5
SFA:#289 20.8

Certainly seems like a trend that his teams, even after knowing his system, foul much more than your average team.
Thanks for posting this. Really interesting stats. This team has quite a few areas for improvement but we may be closer than we think. The speed at which BU teams play seems to raise the number of fouls and turnovers above the norm. The players also look to be bringing max effort every game. We are improving and I love watching it happen.
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Old Dec 10, 2017, 02:59 PM   #25
IlliniMed
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There is no chance that every ref on earth hates us. The more likely reason behind this is that our coaching staff fails to adjust their coaching to the new rule change. It is way more realistic to expect our coaching staff to fix the problem than counting on the refs.
No. They are not hating us.... but our style of play is AGGRESIVE. Just because we are more aggressive than the other team does not mean the other team is not fouling. Thats on Brad to call on crap officiating when its there... and its been there more often than not this year
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