+1.
They would allow even more dunks from the bench after they fouled out. We do not remotely have the personnel to play a full court press.
Michigan 78, Illinois 68 POSTGAME
+1.
They would allow even more dunks from the bench after they fouled out. We do not remotely have the personnel to play a full court press.
Well said.
Point 2 combined with point 4 is perhaps the most disheartening. Many here look at what we have coming in and back and see a future. They ignore that our opponents have guys coming back, and more highly regarded players coming in.
The point is that our roster is in shambles. People are pointing to injuries as justification for performance, and while that may be true, there were complications that allowed those players to be on the roster in the first place.
As for Black, I didn't include him because I don't see him making a difference. Nunn played yesterday, so him missing some time early really doesn't impact the terrible defense I saw yesterday.
This really, really piques my interest.
The consensus by now is that Groce's coaching acumen is highly suspect, on multiple fronts. The final test, in my mind, is how these freshmen develop (this assumes that he gets another season, which I feel really ought to happen regardless). If you take these obviously talented players and let them stagnate, you have no business coaching basketball at the University of Illinois.
Deleted member 8632
D
Guest
I'm not going to defend Groce as an x's and o's guy, but if you think his lack of coaching ability trumps the injuries your crazy. When Thorne went down, this year was over. You cannot consistently lose the rebounding battle by 15-20 a game and expect to win. That's not JG, MF or MM fault. It is what it is. We have to shoot a 10-15% higher field goal percentage than our opponent and win the turnover battle just to overcome the rebounding inefficiency. It's really that simple.
Finke is at the 5 due to necessity and Morgan is a soft, but that's the options right now. The lineup is a mess.....because of injuries. Just having Thorne healthy would change the entire dynamic of what happens on the floor. You create match up nightmares. MH can now play the 3, MF can now play the stretch 4. What happened in the ISU game? In it til Thorne went down. Why? Match ups.
We have issues right now....injury issues.
Finke is at the 5 due to necessity and Morgan is a soft, but that's the options right now. The lineup is a mess.....because of injuries. Just having Thorne healthy would change the entire dynamic of what happens on the floor. You create match up nightmares. MH can now play the 3, MF can now play the stretch 4. What happened in the ISU game? In it til Thorne went down. Why? Match ups.
We have issues right now....injury issues.
Sorry, can't agree here. Had we been healthy from the start, we're at worst 11-3 right now and would finish in the top half of the Big Ten.
It's too bad, because now we're just left wondering. Had we not had the injuries and ended up missing the tournament, then there's much less doubt about the coaching situation. As it is, it's much tougher to evaluate where we really stand. And ultimately I think that's why they'll be around another year at least.
Considering the dire situation this team is in due to injuries that have most significantly leaving this team without a presence in the middle, I would change one thing. That one thing would be MM.
Either:
1. MM looking at himself in the mirror and realizing this is his time. Then going to Groce's office and telling him that he wants to be the man in the middle;
or
2. Groce going to MM and telling him that the team will be riding his shoulders for the near term and he needs to fill bigger shoes with more playing time, better defense, better passing, etc. That MM has no choice.
Then, alter the substitution pattern to fit this one big change.
It kills me to see MM on and off the floor as if there is someone better that takes his place. There ain't no one. So, IMHO, ride this guy till the cows come home. It's only temporary anyway, and it just might connect some dots for MM with the extended playing time and added responsibility. Hey, it could happen!
Either:
1. MM looking at himself in the mirror and realizing this is his time. Then going to Groce's office and telling him that he wants to be the man in the middle;
or
2. Groce going to MM and telling him that the team will be riding his shoulders for the near term and he needs to fill bigger shoes with more playing time, better defense, better passing, etc. That MM has no choice.
Then, alter the substitution pattern to fit this one big change.
It kills me to see MM on and off the floor as if there is someone better that takes his place. There ain't no one. So, IMHO, ride this guy till the cows come home. It's only temporary anyway, and it just might connect some dots for MM with the extended playing time and added responsibility. Hey, it could happen!
Completely agree. Maverick may never become all BIG but he has potential. I just don't thin he realizes yet. Like Dakich pointed out, when Maverick doesn't think good things happen. With more playing time, he will eventually be thinking less and just playing. Could turn out pretty good. And like you said, it's not like we have anyone else to play the 5. Heck, if he fouls out, he fouls out, and we continue to play small ball...
For us to have a chance, Maverick has to play 25 minutes/game
AND, our perimeter players have to drive to the bucket and not settle for jumper so often.
Since Groce is so hand-cuffed right now, he needs to insist on the guards driving and living with the results. The more the guards penetrate, the better they will become at it. and the more Maverick plays, the better he will become. All plusses, plus Groce sets a precedent - no settling for jump shots!
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Very disappointing game after a promising start and 1st half, to say the least.
I am in no way a 'Fire Groce for this season's results' guy. But I am willing to say that he has to win and make antourney run next year or it's over.
If this year and its results (especially if it goes as badly as we are expecting) are due to injuries and bad luck, then Groce deserves to get another year where, hypothetically, he will have more healthy pieces in place at all positions. Including but not limited to maybe being really solid at the 1 and 4-5 (in addition to the already exceptional wings we have in place).
Win with that next hear and your job is safe. If you don't then getting a 5th year is more than enough to see what kind of program you can build.
I hate saying that because I love Groce.
I am in no way a 'Fire Groce for this season's results' guy. But I am willing to say that he has to win and make antourney run next year or it's over.
If this year and its results (especially if it goes as badly as we are expecting) are due to injuries and bad luck, then Groce deserves to get another year where, hypothetically, he will have more healthy pieces in place at all positions. Including but not limited to maybe being really solid at the 1 and 4-5 (in addition to the already exceptional wings we have in place).
Win with that next hear and your job is safe. If you don't then getting a 5th year is more than enough to see what kind of program you can build.
I hate saying that because I love Groce.
IlliniDent
- Chicago, IL
The biggest thing Groce can do this year is make changes to his staff. If he doesn't I don't see him lasting too much longer here.
HoustonIllini
- Houston, TX
Not at all - I'm saying that if all the experts on the site were as brilliant as they profess to be (I'm pretty confident saying that the majority maybe played some pickup and maybe even high school basketball at some point in their lives, but very few played Div. 1 ball, or even Div 2, Div 3, or NAIA), Groce would have them on his staff already
. . . .I'll grant that this year's data is skewed as it is a partial season sample (and is primarily the non-conf schedule, which should be more favorable), however . . .
We harp on the lack of a "Top 100 PG", but looking at this year's data our Assist to Turnover ratio is 1.4 = better than our 15 year average, and equaled or bettered only 4 times in that span, and three of those years were with Dee running the show and the other was with Chet. We do a great job of taking care of the ball, which tells me Groce has gotten the message through about not turning the ball over (10.3 per game, the second best year ever - to last year's squad at 9.9 per game). Even last nights game our ATO ration was greater than 1 (barely).
Statistically, the larger void is at the C - our rebounds, points (from the C), and blocks per game are well below the 15 year average. Explainable with Thorne's absence and a lack of a viable backup. Without a defensive stopper in the middle, we expose every weakness we have - kinda like flying nekkid - everything is out there for the whole world to see . . and exploit.
I don't know if Groce is the answer, but I do strongly believe the schizophrenic make-up of a lot of the posters here will only help to increase turmoil within the program over the next few years. Of course the schizophrenic nature of the administration will have a large part to play here too
Foggy Notion
- San Francisco
The Warriors got blown out by Dallas last night without Curry, Barnes, Ezeli, and Barbosa. Luke Walton, of course, is to blame, and he won't be the head coach for much longer.
I do think there is something to this, but after a 20 minute rest, starting with Iowa State, they continually come out completely flat. I dont think they believe very much in themselves of the system. I think they HOPE they will pull the games out, but they dont necessarily feel there is a legit path being created in the locker room. Toughness and Togetherness speeches wont cut it.
all creative suggestions are welcomeI think we should petition the NCAA, before the next game, to get rid of half time.
That ought to solve the problem.
With the way the freshman/Thorne/hill and nunn have played we would have had a darn good shot at the tourney had everyone been healthy. It's ludicrous to suggest we would have been a bad team even without injuries knowing what we know now about how guys have played to start the year.
LESS competitive? This is all just hyperbole at this point. Filler players? Like who? Everyone gets on Groce's case about shooting too high for recruits and not going after guys "more in our wheelhouse" or whatever. Now it's "we aren't competing for the high level guys!"
You're throwing out a bunch of guys leaving and acting like we don't have a year and a half of development from guys who have shown immense promise or who are highly though of on Lucas' case to further hone their skills in order to replace those players leaving. Yes, hill and nunn were top 100s. So were JCL and black. Finke has also played extremely well so far for a RS freshman so he looks like he will develop into a capable replacement.
Of course no one can sit here and say they guarantee we have replacements because no one has a crystal ball. My point is that we've seen guys play above what was expected of them to this point and we still have another 20 months for guys like Jordan, DJW, Nichols, Lucas, etc to improve as well not to mention any other '16 and '17 recruits we get.
How is a guy with a 2 or 3:1 Assist/TO ratio not in our top 8
Valid point, but it didn't happen vs ISU. That was a 1 point game at the half and we had a 1 point lead at the 11 min mark and it was still a 1 possession game with 7 min left. Given that we lost Big Mike last in the first half, that's not a good example of us being "flat" in the second half.
Not to mention ISU is damn good.
IF Abrams were healthy, THEN Lewis would not be on the team is what the poster is trying to convey.
You don't think a guy who's a top 50 recruit and the best rebounder on the team would make a difference? Wow.
I think Obelix pretty well sums it up here. Groce-belivers feel, probably rightly, that with Thorne, Black and Abrams we are a seriously better team, and that next year would prove that. But even if that is correct, where are we headed in 2016-17? perhaps Leron Bl;ack leading a team of Kipper Nichols, JCL, AJ, Finke and DJW as Juniors is solid, but its pretty hard to know, and even pretty hard to envision right now. Without a quantum leap in recruiting the PG and the middle, are we looking at more stopgap transfers?
great post
we do seem to see very little in terms of player development. can you think of a quantum leap that egwu, nunn, tate, hill, maverick, rice has made under Groce, or how they have demonstrated improvement running our teams system? Is it all on JayTate that the offense runs about the same with him at point as with Lewis?
I miss Brandon Paul.
Counterpoint: we were up 3 at the half with this rag tag roster. we were up ten against Notre Dame. We had providence beat. so this so-so bunch and their coach can play with anyone for 20 minutes. Why not 40? Why cant they stay organized and focused on the court? Why does their energy plummet after 20 minutes of rest, and why are they allowed to jack mediocre 3s with 18 seconds left on the shot clock? Why cant they sustain defensive effort like they showed in the first half of Notre Dame? If we had beaten providence, and held our halftime leads against MU and ND, we'd probably be a top 40 team right now. I posit that somehow we have the talent but we cannot organize it for 40 minutes. Why couldnt they do something to shake Hill free yesterday? Why couldnt anyone stop Donnal?
You can make arguments for Groce and against Groce easy enough. I haven't seen very many ridiculous points made here. But even if you are for Groce how does he stay around with this much negative momentum? Sometimes guys just catch bad breaks which Groce certainly has with injuries and recruiting. Coaching changes swing momentum. That's what we need. I personally like Groce and would love for him to lead us back, but can that even happen at this point? And whatever he is doing at halftime needs to stop. They come out of the locker room looking like a beat dog. I think we'd be ranked if we only had to play the first half. Probably wrong, but it feels that way.