2017 Coaching Carousel

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#2,651      
Both he and Weber also had some bad luck or made some bad gambles that blew up in their faces. Weber had the great 2010 class that included a psychopath, an effective one-and-done and a damaged athlete. As you noted earlier, surrounding that with empty 2008 and 2012 classes really hurts the program.

Then Groce decided to go quick fix with transfers and had similar luck with Cosby, Paul, Starks not going quite according to plan. That's a bunch of scholarships spent with hardly any return. Then he chased high end PGs and got left with nothing there as well.

I agree on both points, and at the end of the day, it is always who you end up getting and how they perform (including off court problems) more than who you miss on.

I like Groce's current class much more than others, it is not as great as others make it to be, but it is solid positionally balanced class. Unfortunately, I believe it is the kind of foundational class that Groce needed in his 2nd or 3rd year, not in his 5th.

In retrospect, many criticize the hiring of Groce as an obvious bad choice. He was not an A+ choice (i.e., Smart, Stevens) but I thought the list below that level was a lot shallower than this year so Groce became an option. He also showed a lot of promise early on, he coached well his first year, motivated, and was riding high with fans and media as an overachiever. He looked like a potential star, Klee made a statement if you remember implying that Groce was destined to move up from UI. All that IMO, probably got to him, made him overconfident, started chasing the quick fix and grand slam HR's, getting him away from a recruiting plan and roster strategy that could have worked.
 
#2,652      
Hasn't Cuonzo recruited BETTER the past three seasons than Self did at Illinois? From what I'm reading, he's pulling a 5-star pretty much every year. As far as I can remember, Dee Brown was Self's only 5-star in three seasons at Illinois. I'm sure I'll be corrected, if I'm wrong. :)

The difference, of course, was the Self took his (and Lon's) guys and won the conference twice and won 6 tournament games in three years. Cuonzo's done none of that.

Maybe more 5 stars but Self inherited an extremely deep, talented, veteran and physically imposing team.

Cuonzo brought in some elite players but i dont know enough about what he inherited to know if they had depth and talent around them.
 
#2,653      
Hasn't Cuonzo recruited BETTER the past three seasons than Self did at Illinois?

He has.

But my fear is that when Ayo Dosunmu commits to Kentucky after three days of our fake insiders telling us that he's already a silent verbal to Illinois that Cuonzo is just the latest Illinois coach whose stench of thirstiness and desperation practically fills the gym anywhere he goes on the recruiting trail.

I would so much rather have the fate of our next coach be fundamentally driven by thousands of hours of blood sweat and tears in Ubben rather than the whims of whoever the first 17 year old kid that coach invests his credibility in on one random day of a decision.

Lets go get that kid when we've got something on the floor to sell him, not just how popular he'll be with all of us old white dorks on the internet.
 
#2,654      
Do people realistically think Bennett would come here? I know we all probably thought Lovie was a major reach until Whitman actually pulled it off.

I just have a hard time believing Bennett would leave a program that he has built into a year in and year out top 10 program in the nation's best conference, unless a blue blood came calling.

Nope- not a chance. If he ever comes to the Big 10, it will be at Wisky.
 
#2,656      
John Groce isn't a horrible coach. He struck out on his home run swings for recruits. The second tier players that he took simply haven't played up to their ranking. Because his recruiting rankings are middle of the pack doesn't mean that the players he got are middle of the pack big 10 quality. Malcolm Hill and Mav Morgan are the only two players that he has recruited that I would say have lived up to their recruiting rankin, maybe throw in Finke. . What is the cause of that? Some say player development, I say these guys just aren't good enough. The coach still bears that responsibility of recognizing the recruits abilities beyond their ranking. Leron Black, Aaron Jordan, DJ Williams, Jalen Coleman Lands. None of those guys are playing up to the expectations coming in. I've seen where some credit him for excellent talent evaluation because he gets in on kids early that then blow up. I would reject that assessment of him based on the kids that he has signed. College basketball is a recruiting game and his lack of success there is the reason he will be gone at the end of this season.

Northwestern is 16-4 and likely going to the tournament with a roster of guys all ranked for the most part in the 200 range with the exception of Vic Law and Barrett Benson and Benson isn't playing that much. The recruiting is not an issue for Groce. He seems to do ok there. The complete lack of competitiveness is disturbing. Either there is no motivation or there is a problem in game planning.
 
#2,657      

mattcoldagelli

The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
He has.

But my fear is that when Ayo Dosunmu commits to Kentucky after three days of our fake insiders telling us that he's already a silent verbal to Illinois that Cuonzo is just the latest Illinois coach whose stench of thirstiness and desperation practically fills the gym anywhere he goes on the recruiting trail.

You can't tilt at lazy fan narratives and message board conspiracies for 9 posts and then have this be your 10th.
 
#2,658      

jmilt7

Waukegan
If he was allowed to hire Groce as his lead recruiter, I'd be right there with you at the party. That was when their recruiting success was at its peak.

Hmm, I know this won't happen and it might actually be just plain silly but I think it would be interesting as a pie in the sky possibility. Whitman makes Groce a deal to stay as lead recruiter for Illinois under the next coach. Groce would probably end up as some kind of assistant somewhere anyway, why not here? Seems like coaches who are fired have to work their way back up to head coach again. Or is that not the case? His family doesn't have to relocate again. We have a good chance of keeping the class he just recruited (Tilman, Frazier, etc). And maybe Groce is big enough to accept a lesser role and continues to be a real asset to the University as he already has been.
 
#2,659      
You can't tilt at lazy fan narratives and message board conspiracies for 9 posts and then have this be your 10th.

It's a free country. :usa:

(You're right. But I do think there is something to where Illinois is at with big time recruits that is more about the image of the program than the specific coaches involved.)
 
#2,660      
Whitman makes Groce a deal to stay as lead recruiter for Illinois under the next coach. Groce would probably end up as some kind of assistant somewhere anyway, why not here? Seems like coaches who are fired have to work their way back up to head coach again.

Huge public downgrade and humiliation. These guys have egos and have made enough money to just move somewhere else and start over. Groce would gain nothing staying at Illinois as an assistant.
 
#2,661      

jmilt7

Waukegan
Well, the players have responsibility to execute.

If in the middle of the season a coach needs to clean up, then either the person is a bad coach or the kids do not execute in a game situation. Of course the coach is ultimately responsible, but in this case these kids have let him down to some extent. On the flip side Coach has this weird preference for older players who do not do well. As a result the best are not on the court most of the time. His philosophy of practice dictates game minutes also baffles me. Not all players follow that script.

Not sure if this is the thread for the following, but, I would give Groce another year.

Not meant to be an attack but you seem to contradict yourself. Your sound observations in your first paragraph seem to belie your call for another year. Have you read the last, oh, 50 pages or so of this thread? I was on the fence before I started reading this thread but am firmly in the "he's gotta go" camp now.
 
#2,662      
In retrospect, many criticize the hiring of Groce as an obvious bad choice. He was not an A+ choice (i.e., Smart, Stevens) but I thought the list below that level was a lot shallower than this year so Groce became an option. He also showed a lot of promise early on, he coached well his first year, motivated, and was riding high with fans and media as an overachiever. He looked like a potential star, Klee made a statement if you remember implying that Groce was destined to move up from UI. All that IMO, probably got to him, made him overconfident, started chasing the quick fix and grand slam HR's, getting him away from a recruiting plan and roster strategy that could have worked.

Never thought of it that way before. Definitely seems like a possibility. Guy gets hot, essentially is a missed call away from a S16 app his first year, and everyone is in love with him. He goes after the biggest fish in the pond, slowly gets beaten to 90% of them and quickly loses all momentum. Would be interesting to see where he would be if that team didn't find the sucess--if it would've pushed him to second tier guys earlier (actually might have been a better play, at least at PG and C).
 
#2,663      

mattcoldagelli

The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
But I do think there is something to where Illinois is at with big time recruits that is more about the image of the program than the specific coaches involved.

It's hard to see that sticking from coach to coach. I mean, at the end of the day they both missed on guys, but I feel like Weber got "no's" for different reasons than Groce did.
 
#2,664      
Is Mick Cronin another one of those pie in the sky names? I think he's more attainable than Sean Miller or Tony Bennett, but probably pretty high up there, especially considering his extremely deep ties to Cincy (Born & raised there + Alma Mater).

Similarly, Is Chris Holtmann's relationship with Groce too strong to pull him away? He's also a guy thats seeing massive success, so hes probably in that pipe dream pool too.

I'd still list those guys as the most attainable A+ hire's out there (although you could argue Holtmann is still a little unproven).

To me there's a lot of guys who pop up on here that just seem one season away from being a target. Musselman, Keatts, Mueller, McCall, Wade, etc. Just too inexperienced to be 100% in on. I'd argue all those guys have a better HC track record than Groce did, but Groce was considered an elite recruiter. If we are reaching into the mid-major riser's pool my vote is for Keatts then Musselman.
 
#2,665      

Tevo

Wilmette, IL
If Keatts makes a run in the Tournament (Sweet 16 or better) people are going to be clamoring for him.

This is my thought. Keatts seems primed to make the tournament again, and this time as perhaps an 11 seed (compared to a 13 last year). They could easily be 27-4 or better going into their conference tournament and could clearly win that, too, putting them around 31-4 as they enter the NCAAs. If he wins a game in the NCAA, let alone two, he's going to be the hottest name in the country for programs looking for a new coach.

  • Dramatic improvement, even without adding huge classes, or overhauling the roster
  • Lead assistant at a big time program (Louisville)
  • Listed at #3 among the "Most Feared Recruiting Assistants" (according to one article)
  • Young, charismatic, African American

The only possible checkbox left unchecked is "Tournament Success". He checks that one this year and he blows UP.
 
#2,666      

mattcoldagelli

The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
This is my thought. Keatts seems primed to make the tournament again, and this time as perhaps an 11 seed (compared to a 13 last year). They could easily be 27-4 or better going into their conference tournament and could clearly win that, too, putting them around 31-4 as they enter the NCAAs. If he wins a game in the NCAA, let alone two, he's going to be the hottest name in the country for programs looking for a new coach.

  • Dramatic improvement, even without adding huge classes, or overhauling the roster
  • Lead assistant at a big time program (Louisville)
  • Listed at #3 among the "Most Feared Recruiting Assistants" (according to one article)
  • Young, charismatic, African American

The only possible checkbox left unchecked is "Tournament Success". He checks that one this year and he blows UP.

I look forward to all of us being Keatts hipsters.
 
#2,667      
Keatts/McCall/Musselman

If JW can't pry Marshall from WSU or Bennett fro UVA then I think this is the best of the top Mid-major guys. I don't like Martin I think he is a good recruiter better then Groce but he has issues coaching up good talent. I like Keatts a lot he seems to be on the rise quickly even more then Groce who turned one win in the tourney into the Illinois job. Groce's overall success at Ohio was very mediocre (85-56 overall and 34-30 in conference). We settled for Groce as our 5th or 6th choice and we have paid for it he wasn't ready for a Power 5 job that is for sure.
 
#2,668      
This is my thought. Keatts seems primed to make the tournament again, and this time as perhaps an 11 seed (compared to a 13 last year). They could easily be 27-4 or better going into their conference tournament and could clearly win that, too, putting them around 31-4 as they enter the NCAAs. If he wins a game in the NCAA, let alone two, he's going to be the hottest name in the country for programs looking for a new coach.

  • Dramatic improvement, even without adding huge classes, or overhauling the roster
  • Lead assistant at a big time program (Louisville)
  • Listed at #3 among the "Most Feared Recruiting Assistants" (according to one article)
  • Young, charismatic, African American

The only possible checkbox left unchecked is "Tournament Success". He checks that one this year and he blows UP.

Keatts is a great choice IMO, currently No. 2 in my realistic wish list. I would make a quick play with Archie as my first choice (tough but more realistic than Bennett or Smart/Stevens last search) and then quickly move to Keatts, Mack, and Quonzo in that order. I believe one of those 4 will take the job, without having to divert resources to multiple other options.
 
#2,669      
In retrospect, many criticize the hiring of Groce as an obvious bad choice.

No, many if not most of us said that at the time, because it WAS an obvious bad choice.

I thought the list below that level was a lot shallower than this year so Groce became an option.

That may be true, but there were plenty of resumes out there better than Groce's who were bandied about at the time that MT just ignored.

Some of them would have been prescient, like Chris Collins or Gregg Marshall.

Some of them have probably wouldn't have worked out like Reggie Theus or Scott Sutton.

Some, who the heck knows? What does the Tim Miles era look like at Illinois? Ben Jacobson? Mo Cheeks?

But all of these people had resumes unambiguously indicating a higher probability of success than Groce.

EDIT: I forgot we let Frank Martin go to South Freaking Carolina that offseason. Ugh.

He also showed a lot of promise early on

Somewhat overstated at the time, but nonetheless undeniably true.
 
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#2,671      
The only possible checkbox left unchecked is "Tournament Success". He checks that one this year and he blows UP.

Among anyone paying attention, he's already blown up. The secret is out on Kevin Keatts. He's going to have several jobs to choose from this offseason. I don't think I'm being too much of a homer in seeing ours as the best one though. Georgetown and NC State are the only ones that scare me, and if he takes NC State, all of a sudden Archie is free.
 
#2,675      
Keatts is a great choice IMO, currently No. 2 in my realistic wish list. I would make a quick play with Archie as my first choice (tough but more realistic than Bennett or Smart/Stevens last search) and then quickly move to Keatts, Mack, and Quonzo in that order. I believe one of those 4 will take the job, without having to divert resources to multiple other options.

I 100% agree with this list given the information currently available to us. Weren't you one of the folks of the stance that Archie was a no chancer, though?

Look at this, you and I agreeing, what has this thread come to?
 
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