John Groce is a terrible basketball coach and has proven it over the last 5 years. Therefore, he must be fired and replaced.
Exactly. I'm shocked anyone who watches this team thinks anything different-.
John Groce is a terrible basketball coach and has proven it over the last 5 years. Therefore, he must be fired and replaced.
Actually it is a binary decision.
1. John Groce is a terrible basketball coach and has proven it over the last 5 years.
2. Therefore, he must be fired and replaced.
I have no idea if that fits into the "binary" definition. But this decision is obvious.
Mark Gottfried won't even be considered for our opening, and rightfully so. Compare his resume to John Groce. They aren't even close. That's how bad John Groce has been.
I do not disagree with #1, what I am saying is that there is a though process before you can answer #2. Two wrongs don't make a right, if I were tell you that you lose Tilmon and Frazier, and we settle for another Mid-major, do you make that move? To me that is not as appealing and being set back another 5 years with a bad hire and no players. To me I would get the players in (more attractive to a coach) and try to make adjustments with assistants, etc.
In the end i think the actual answer to #2 (as I stated in my original post) is that Whitman comes to the conclusion of #2 because is his able to find a better replacement that he has more confidence in. This is what I want to happen.
My point is that everyone is so extreme in that he MUST be fired, or he MUST stay to retain the class. I am saying there is more that goes into the process. IMO if Groce is retained it is not b/c Whitman thinks he needs another year its because of what I say (can't pull a decent hire and recruits will leave)
I am very much pro firing Groce, and I expect him to be fired and a quality hire to be already agreed to come on when that happens. But just blindly firing w/o understanding the flip side is how MT operated and that got us 2 sub-par head coaches.
Why would they fire him for one bad year? NC State has made it to the dance the last 4 out of 5 years . They'll miss it this year, but he can recruit, he obviously can coach, so I don't get it. The Tarheels beat them badly in both meetings this year, but that doesn't warrant termination, IMO.
It doesn't help when your sitting down the road from Duke and UNC. This isn't a true apples to apples, but would Groce have been gone sooner had Northwester and Illinois State been rolling into tournament after tournament the past 3 years. Other teams near by success changes expectations a little bit.Why would they fire him for one bad year? NC State has made it to the dance the last 4 out of 5 years . They'll miss it this year, but he can recruit, he obviously can coach, so I don't get it. The Tarheels beat them badly in both meetings this year, but that doesn't warrant termination, IMO.
I miss the good ole days when people had "sources" that were hearing things.... Right or wrong, it was at least interesting and kept me excited. I'll be honest, there isn't one coach that I've heard other than Bennett or Donavon that remotely gets me excited. Not one. Greg Marshall would be an absolute disaster! A fan base and media that complains about 8pm starts and Groce throwing a coat is going to put up with him going absolutely bonkers? On top of that, you could kiss any big time recruits bye bye....They won't play for him.
Does Groce for additional year(s) excite you more than any of the other names? If so,
I feel like someone like Mick Cronin is far more realistic than we might think. Yes he's getting paid north of 2 mil a year and he's from Cincinnati. But that conference is kind of a mess. I could see him wanting the stability and prestige of the B1G.
Nope... not at all. But....nobody does anything for me. It's depressing. I feel like we're sunk any way we go honestly.
I really, really think that a lot of the people saying maybe Groce should get another year were born after 1990 and/or didn't become fans until at least late last decade. WE ARE ILLINOIS BASKETBALL! We're a top-15 all-time program. From the mid 1980s to the mid '00s we were one of the 8-10 most prestigious and successful teams in America. My entire life, from 1981 until a few years after I graduated from UIUC in '04, we were nationally relevant every season. 3 out of every 4 years we were ranked and a single-digit tournament seed. A Sweet 16 appearance was merely an okay year. We were in a group of programs just below the blue bloods--along with Arizona, Syracuse, Michigan State, et al--expected to compete for Elite 8 berths just about every year. We had the nation's longest home winning streak at one point. We were a borderline dominant team for the better part of two decades.
It's one thing to see the records and statistics on paper, but those of us who grew up with the Flying Illini and Lon and Self's teams feel the expectation of greatness in our bones. We should be in the tournament 8-9 out of 10 years. We should compete for Big Ten championships and Final Fours. We should pull in top-20 recruiting classes almost every year. Illinois basketball is a storied program. The fact that many fans have been throttled into accepting mediocrity is maddening. The fact that we're alternately a joke and an afterthought in the national conversation feels like some kind of alternate universe.
I like and respect Groce as a man, but he's gone as soon as the season ends and rightfully so. I feel confident that Josh Whitman has the same expectations for the program as I do: we should be invincible at home, in the tournament constantly, and in the national media cycle on a weekly basis during the season. People should talk about us like they talk about Arizona. That's where we come from. That's where we belong.
Nope... not at all. But....nobody does anything for me. It's depressing. I feel like we're sunk any way we go honestly.
No way, man. That age bracket either has apathetic fans due to lack of success in the program from HS and on, or people who want Groce out for ruining their undergrad. The former group isn't going to be posting on IL. There's a group in that age bracket as well that grew up as die-hards, and the vast majority of die-hards want him out as well.
The only remaining "maybe one more year" guys are just a distant minority from all over the place.
Weber's last five classes:Even "worst recruiter ever" Bruce Weber brought in 3 comparable classes to what we have coming in next year. We should basically be bringing in a top 15/20 class 3 of every 4 years. Class like like next year's should be the expectation and not one put on a pedestal.
Neither is a "home run" hire, which is why the fan base is not 100℅ behind either of them.Right there with you. I think Cuonzo is a good hire. I think Keatts has tons of potential but would be a risky and almost scary hire.
Weber's last five classes:
2012: no players
2011: Abrams, Egwu, and a bunch of sludge
2010: C. Head, J. Richmond, and M. Leonard
2009: Brandon Paul, D.J. Richardson, Joe Bertrand, and Tyler Griffey
2008: Stan Simpson and Dominique Keller
Greg, if you were born in 1981, you didn't truly live Illini basketball in the 1980's, which was probably the most frustrating stretch in Illini basketball history. It started with having to face Kentucky in the EE in 1984 in Kentucky and losing on a phantom foul on Douglas.
Then, with everyone returning in 1985, expectations were high for another deep tourney run and we fizzled out in the Sweet 16.
That was followed by 3 years of not making it past the second round, including a first round loss to Austin Peay in 1987.
We finally put it all together in 1989, only to lose to Michigan in the FF on a last second put back off a rebound that Nick Anderson should have gotten.
Then, when things were finally looking up for us, Bruce Pearl and NCAA sanction happened which effectively submarined the rest of Henson's career.
So, basically, we had a lot of talent coming through our system in the 1980's and ended up with 1 BIG title and 1 FF to show for it.
I think a lot of the younger Illini fans only remember the stretch of the Self years and the first 2-3 years of Weber, where we won the BIG title 4 out of 5 years and made two Sweet 16's, one EE and the National Championship.
That was probably the greatest 5 years in Illini Basketball history and everybody who grew up watching that is expecting that every year, which is probably unrealistic.
I think that we should expect something in between Henson and the Self/early Weber years.
BTW, I think that many people who are against Cuonzo, think he might be like Henson and pull in lots of talent, but not always get the most out of them.
Whereas, people who like Keatts, probably think he could be the next Self.
Greg, if you were born in 1981, you didn't truly live Illini basketball in the 1980's, which was probably the most frustrating stretch in Illini basketball history. It started with having to face Kentucky in the EE in 1984 in Kentucky and losing on a phantom foul on Douglas.
Then, with everyone returning in 1985, expectations were high for another deep tourney run and we fizzled out in the Sweet 16.
That was followed by 3 years of not making it past the second round, including a first round loss to Austin Peay in 1987.
We finally put it all together in 1989, only to lose to Michigan in the FF on a last second put back off a rebound that Nick Anderson should have gotten.
Then, when things were finally looking up for us, Bruce Pearl and NCAA sanction happened which effectively submarined the rest of Henson's career.
So, basically, we had a lot of talent coming through our system in the 1980's and ended up with 1 BIG title and 1 FF to show for it.
I agree with your points. I don't expect to be at the '01-'06 level constantly. I do expect to make the tournament almost every year and challenge for B1G titles and deep tourney runs at least a few times per decade. Making a S16 every three years or so and an E8 twice per decade would be great. That's basically where Henson was at.
If every 15-20 years we peak the way we did in the early 2000s, beating blue bloods, winning conference titles, and making F4 runs for a few seasons, that would be wonderful. I'm fine with tumbling back to earth after an unsustainable, transcendent stretch...provided "earth" means 20-25 wins, a top-6 conference finish, and a 7 or 8 seed. That should be the floor. Of course there will be the occasional season where we lose 4-5 key players from the previous year, struggle with injuries, and finish 8-10 in conference and on the wrong side of the bubble. That's totally acceptable once every seven or eight years.
I think the Keatts/Self comparisons are somewhat overblown. In terms of college head coaching experience, Self had 4 seasons at Oral Roberts and 3 at Tulsa before coming to Illinois. UCNW is not even a mid-major, it's a legit, one-bid against a top 3 seed, low major. That's a huge jump from that to B1G. People realized that Self was an up-and-comer, but he would probably admit that the Tulsa step really helped his development. That mid-major step can be huge. Also, a small uptick in talent and game experience can give you a better shot at winning a game or 2 in the tourney and improving your coaching resume even more. I'd be very surprised to see UNCW win a game in the tourney.
I started at Illinois in 2009. I've seen 3 seasons since I started. I was initially really excited when Groce was hired just like everyone else and all my friends were too. I do not know a single person in my age group that wants to keep Groce.
Why didn't any top 25 programs hire Pat Skerry at Towson? His 3-year turnaround was more impressive than Keatts in the same conference, yet I don't hear any Bill Self comparisons.
Obviously that's a tongue in cheek comparison, but Keatts has a very similar pedigree to Groce. I would expect Keatts to be a strong recruiter given that he ran the top post-grad bball program that had numerous high profile recruits, and he was an asst at Louisville. But there's not much of a reason to think he's a good coach at this point of his career. It's crazy to think people point to his turnaround of UNCW as an amazing success and then downplay Cuonzo getting the highest seed in Cal history. The latter is far more impressive to me because of the competition level.
I prefer Cuonzo to Keatts, but I don't think either is a great hire. I hope Whitman can work some magic again!
They messed up with leaks he was getting fired after Saturday's debacle against Wake...No idea what the reason, but possibilities:
* They want to get a jump on the coaching search
* They want to get ahead of possible rumors if it's not announced
* There's a reason to distance from him now (he's done something we don't know about that will come to light)
* Appease boosters
* They don't know what they're doing...Ding Ding
* They do know what they're doing and don't want it to get out that they're working channels while their coach is still there
Personally, I'm not sure it's the worst thing you can do. While some on this board say you should have a replacement before cutting the cord, I don't think that's realistic. I'm not opposed to keeping it under wraps either, but there may be some advantage to being an early opening. I think most people want to do everything possible in our situation to make a smooth transition given the recruiting implications, but I expect there will be fallout. If we're lucky, we're able to move quickly, and the hire keeps everyone on board. I'm not counting on it though.
You're missing the point that the true WRONG is Groce. He's a bad coach. He's had terrible results and ample time.
To answer your questions, yes I fire Groce and don't think twice about losing Tilmon and Frazier. I'd really like for you to find an example of a coach that gets NO players. Yet to see that happen.
Also, since you're bring up keeping recruits, what about keeping the actual players on the team? There's probably a better chance of losing multiple players than losing multiple recruits if we keep Groce. Do you think Williams and Jordan are happy as bench warmers for a terrible team? (While also arguably 2 of the top 3 most athletic players on the team)
It's a simple decision. Groce is a terrible coach so he will be replaced. It's JW's job to find a good replacement.