Exactly. I'm shocked anyone who watches this team thinks anything different-.
2017 Coaching Carousel
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Exactly. I'm shocked anyone who watches this team thinks anything different-.
I do not disagree with #1, what I am saying is that there is a though process before you can answer #2. Two wrongs don't make a right, if I were tell you that you lose Tilmon and Frazier, and we settle for another Mid-major, do you make that move? To me that is not as appealing and being set back another 5 years with a bad hire and no players. To me I would get the players in (more attractive to a coach) and try to make adjustments with assistants, etc.
In the end i think the actual answer to #2 (as I stated in my original post) is that Whitman comes to the conclusion of #2 because is his able to find a better replacement that he has more confidence in. This is what I want to happen.
My point is that everyone is so extreme in that he MUST be fired, or he MUST stay to retain the class. I am saying there is more that goes into the process. IMO if Groce is retained it is not b/c Whitman thinks he needs another year its because of what I say (can't pull a decent hire and recruits will leave)
I am very much pro firing Groce, and I expect him to be fired and a quality hire to be already agreed to come on when that happens. But just blindly firing w/o understanding the flip side is how MT operated and that got us 2 sub-par head coaches.
I think adding Gottfried to the list was a joke
You're missing the point that the true WRONG is Groce. He's a bad coach. He's had terrible results and ample time.
To answer your questions, yes I fire Groce and don't think twice about losing Tilmon and Frazier. I'd really like for you to find an example of a coach that gets NO players. Yet to see that happen.
Also, since you're bring up keeping recruits, what about keeping the actual players on the team? There's probably a better chance of losing multiple players than losing multiple recruits if we keep Groce. Do you think Williams and Jordan are happy as bench warmers for a terrible team? (While also arguably 2 of the top 3 most athletic players on the team)
It's a simple decision. Groce is a terrible coach so he will be replaced. It's JW's job to find a good replacement.
Honestly, Groce's first year coaching at Illinois charmed me for a long time. I couldn't help but think that maybe we struck gold because he took a team that was atrocious under Weber and got them to play hard and win an NCAA tournament game. And then I watched his post game speech after losing to Miami and I was enamored with how inspirational it was. I genuinely thought we had found the right coach for Illinois basketball. Unfortunately, this and injuries and some tough losses in recruiting made me think that most of our lack of success was bad luck. But throughout the last 4 seasons the one thing that I couldn't justify was why we constantly looked loss on offense and defense (especially come Big Ten time). I think we've all come to realize that Groce is a great guy, a very good speaker, a good recruiter, but a lousy coach. I coach high school basketball and another coach I respect went to a coaching clinic on offense that Groce led and they said they walked away confused and overwhelmed by his statistics and explanations. They honestly had no idea what he actually runs on offense after an hour and half explanation. To me, this sums up our current situation perfectly.
They were 16-17 last year
14-13 and fading badly this year
Yes, he made the tournament the previous 4 seasons but the seeds were 8,8,11,12. So not exactly high quality results. He did make 2 S16s, but those were assisted by upsets giving them an easier path.
ILL in IA
- Iowa City
It doesn't help when your sitting down the road from Duke and UNC. This isn't a true apples to apples, but would Groce have been gone sooner had Northwester and Illinois State been rolling into tournament after tournament the past 3 years. Other teams near by success changes expectations a little bit.
I miss the good ole days when people had "sources" that were hearing things.... Right or wrong, it was at least interesting and kept me excited. I'll be honest, there isn't one coach that I've heard other than Bennett or Donavon that remotely gets me excited. Not one. Greg Marshall would be an absolute disaster! A fan base and media that complains about 8pm starts and Groce throwing a coat is going to put up with him going absolutely bonkers? On top of that, you could kiss any big time recruits bye bye....They won't play for him.
Does Groce for additional year(s) excite you more than any of the other names? If so,
Does Groce for additional year(s) excite you more than any of the other names? If so,
Nope... not at all. But....nobody does anything for me. It's depressing. I feel like we're sunk any way we go honestly.
Health issues, alma mater, I don't see why he comes here.
Well, no, we're not.
89illinigrad
- Chicago
Greg, if you were born in 1981, you didn't truly live Illini basketball in the 1980's, which was probably the most frustrating stretch in Illini basketball history. It started with having to face Kentucky in the EE in 1984 in Kentucky and losing on a phantom foul on Douglas.
Then, with everyone returning in 1985, expectations were high for another deep tourney run and we fizzled out in the Sweet 16.
That was followed by 3 years of not making it past the second round, including a first round loss to Austin Peay in 1987.
We finally put it all together in 1989, only to lose to Michigan in the FF on a last second put back off a rebound that Nick Anderson should have gotten.
Then, when things were finally looking up for us, Bruce Pearl and NCAA sanction happened which effectively submarined the rest of Henson's career.
So, basically, we had a lot of talent coming through our system in the 1980's and ended up with 1 BIG title and 1 FF to show for it.
I think a lot of the younger Illini fans only remember the stretch of the Self years and the first 2-3 years of Weber, where we won the BIG title 4 out of 5 years and made two Sweet 16's, one EE and the National Championship.
That was probably the greatest 5 years in Illini Basketball history and everybody who grew up watching that is expecting that every year, which is probably unrealistic.
I think that we should expect something in between Henson and the Self/early Weber years.
BTW, I think that many people who are against Cuonzo, think he might be like Henson and pull in lots of talent, but not always get the most out of them.
Whereas, people who like Keatts, probably think he could be the next Self.
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
The only possible way to feel this way is to be totally divorced from the reality of how bad Groce has actually been.
KrushCow31
Former Krush Cow
- Chicago, IL
I started at Illinois in 2009. I've seen 3 seasons since I started. I was initially really excited when Groce was hired just like everyone else and all my friends were too. I do not know a single person in my age group that wants to keep Groce.
Weber's last five classes:
2012: no players
2011: Abrams, Egwu, and a bunch of sludge
2010: C. Head, J. Richmond, and M. Leonard
2009: Brandon Paul, D.J. Richardson, Joe Bertrand, and Tyler Griffey
2008: Stan Simpson and Dominique Keller
skyIdub
Winged Warrior
It's funny how you can try so hard to rationalize so much when you like someone or are afraid of a big change. It was pretty unanimous that it was NCAA Tournament or gone for Groce before the season started. I like Groce as well...the person, his morals and his work ethic....but even I agreed it was NCAA or bust this year.
So here we are not only not going to the Dance, but staring at the possibility of not even getting an NIT invite? Maybe? Think about that for a minute or two.
Just stop considering Groce sticking around because of one 5 Star recruit. No disrespect to Tilmon.....and I truly hope he will still honor his commitment to this program....but one 5 star recruit is not going to change the direction of this staff next year.
The 2017 class is fantastic, and a great opportunity to turn this program back on track. That class deserves a coaching staff and a program that has nothing chained to their neck like the massive ball Groce would have IF for some ridiculous reason JW thought that was a positive situation to go forward with.
It's not. Frankly I believe that Tilmon and Frazier and the rest of that class will understand this as well. It's time to Flip This House.
So here we are not only not going to the Dance, but staring at the possibility of not even getting an NIT invite? Maybe? Think about that for a minute or two.
Just stop considering Groce sticking around because of one 5 Star recruit. No disrespect to Tilmon.....and I truly hope he will still honor his commitment to this program....but one 5 star recruit is not going to change the direction of this staff next year.
The 2017 class is fantastic, and a great opportunity to turn this program back on track. That class deserves a coaching staff and a program that has nothing chained to their neck like the massive ball Groce would have IF for some ridiculous reason JW thought that was a positive situation to go forward with.
It's not. Frankly I believe that Tilmon and Frazier and the rest of that class will understand this as well. It's time to Flip This House.
89illinigrad
- Chicago
Neither is a "home run" hire, which is why the fan base is not 100℅ behind either of them.
Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk
2011 class ranked 13 ( the "sludge" included our 2 highest ranked players in Shaw and Henry)
2010 class ranked 7
2009 class ranked 16
Next year's class pretty comparable. Obviously a lot of these players didn't work out, but no guarantee the next class will either.
I agree with your points. I don't expect to be at the '01-'06 level constantly. I do expect to make the tournament almost every year and challenge for B1G titles and deep tourney runs at least a few times per decade. Making a S16 every three years or so and an E8 twice per decade would be great. That's basically where Henson was at.
If every 15-20 years we peak the way we did in the early 2000s, beating blue bloods, winning conference titles, and making F4 runs for a few seasons, that would be wonderful. I'm fine with tumbling back to earth after an unsustainable, transcendent stretch...provided "earth" means 20-25 wins, a top-6 conference finish, and a 7 or 8 seed. That should be the floor. Of course there will be the occasional season where we lose 4-5 key players from the previous year, struggle with injuries, and finish 8-10 in conference and on the wrong side of the bubble. That's totally acceptable once every seven or eight years.
eMitch
- Quincy, IL
I was at ISU during those years. I still remember me and my roommate jumping around the living room pouring beer on each others head after Nick Anderson hit the buzzer beater at Indiana.
Plenty of good times but I can't name a single person who thought Henson was good coach at the time. They all thought he was a good guy, but he took a ton of blame for not living up to expectations.
robertgoulet
IL Board Resident Crooner
- Austin, TX
I agree with this for the most part. Fluctuating between a Top 15 and ORV (4-8 seed) should be the norm. Then you have your peaks and valleys off of that.
Keatts' year 2 UNCW squad played Duke last year, a team that made the E8, and covered the spread against them. Obviously you want wins, but he still outperformed expectations against a really strong Duke team just last year.
I fall squarely in that age group of 90's folk, and while I think some folks' expectations are slightly over the top, I find it irrefutable that Groce is not the guy. He's not meeting expectations for ANY P5 program (maybe a few true bottom feeders), let alone ours. I wanted Groce out after last season. He's done nothing to indicate he's even a middling P5 coach. If he were even that, we'd probably get to wait another two years for this conversation. But he's already one of (probably THE) worst coach this program has ever had, and he should be shown the door accordingly.
Comparing Keatts to Groce in such a broad stroke is just a lazy comparison. Keatts' success at his head coaching stops (Hargrave -- yeah, yeah, HS, but it still counts -- and UNCW) is leaps and bounds ahead of Groce's.
Also, Keatts' turnaround of UNCW is an amazing success. It cannot be understated how bad UNCW was before he got there. The turnaround in just one year was crazy. Also, comparing to Pat Skerry's turnaround? Pat Skerry went 1-31 in year one, Keatts won a conference title in year one.
I do not mean to cast Keatts as a perfect candidate. There are perfectly reasonable reasons to have doubts about him, most specifically the leap from the CAA to the B10 being what it is. But I really don't think there's much more he can do at the CAA level to prove his coaching accumen save a crazy tournament run.
They messed up with leaks he was getting fired after Saturday's debacle against Wake...
You are missing my point. I think Groce should and will be fired, but its fueled by the though that something better will come of this, much like Whitman is looking at this. This should be the sentiment on here IMO not Groce Must go no matter what or Groce needs to stay for the recruiting class. Really it should be what yields the best outcome in the future, of which Whitman has the information to make that decision.
Not once did I say Groce should stay solely for the incoming class, but you have to consider that when making a decision. If I were to tell you Dan Mueller was the best Whitman would pull and that he kept neither Tilmon nor Frazier, would you be as amped to just blindly fire the guy? I dont think that will transpire but I wouldn't, which is why speaking in absolutes does not make sense.
My point is no one knows what is happening behind the scenes. Many, such as myself, ultimately feel a change should be made, but that change will be made by Whitman once all factors are considered, and he will make the best decision, that I am confident in, so its pointless to speak in absolute terms in the meantime.
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