College Hoops Coaching Carousel

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#276      

Mr. Tibbs

Mr. Tibbs
southeast DuPage
Mr. Tibbs
Battle89 said:
Disagree. There was just a discussion here this week about Calipari and his lack of SEC titles vs. Self and his Big 12 titles. And I don't think anyone thinks much of historical sweet sixteen appearances either.

Some smarter mathematician than me can do the formulas, but there is an expected return / likelihood of achievement thing for me. Of course national championships are the best, but we are zero for 55 in my lifetime. Doesn't mean you stop striving for those, but to me conference championships matter. My rough and open-to-debate order is something like this:

National championship
Final Four
Big Ten regular season champ
Big Ten tournament champ
Elite 8 / Sweet 16 / second weekend
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pretty much agree. I would probably put getting to an E8 appearance higher than the B1G Tourney, but otherwise Im in agreement
Winning the B1G reqular season is a sure sign you had a great year from mid Dec - March and means you had a lot of games on national TV.
Winning the B1G tourney is nice, and allows you to hang a banner, but it just means you were really good (and maybe lucky) for 3-4 days in mid March
 
#277      

BretMyBeachHouse

B
BretMyBeachHouse
Battle89 said:
Like I said, open to debate, and maybe I’m in the minority here. But I cannot fathom not giving a lick about conference titles. Maybe it’s a generational thing and speaks to the differences in college sports today. (I’m flashing over to posts in the realignment thread.)

My list above represented end or peak points, of course I’m hoping for a FF if in the moment we are in the Elite 8.

I’d also argue that in the world of mega conferences that those championships mean even more, not less.
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Well, I doubt anyone thinks that conference titles don't mean "a lick"

But here's a real life example. in 1989, Indiana won the conference title. Would you have swapped spots with them? Do you think anyone in America knows other than a few IU fans and a few Illinois fans? Bobby Knight is probably still upset he lost the 1 seed to us.
 
#278      

ChiefGritty

ChiefGritty
Chicago, IL
ChiefGritty
BretMyBeachHouse said:
Well, I doubt anyone thinks that conference titles don't mean "a lick"

But here's a real life example. in 1989, Indiana won the conference title. Would you have swapped spots with them? Do you think anyone in America knows other than a few IU fans and a few Illinois fans? Bobby Knight is probably still upset he lost the 1 seed to us.
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It's like ranking poker hands. National Title > Final Four > Conference Title > Sweet Sixteen > Conference Tourney Title > NCAA First Round win
 
#279      

dbeverly26

dbeverly26
dbeverly26
BretMyBeachHouse said:
Bobby Knight is probably still upset he lost the 1 seed to us.
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Well, he shoulda guarded the damned passer on the inbounds play.

I recall that Knight and the IU fanbase were livid because they thought a conference title meant they should have gotten the #1 seed. Which is not to say anything other than folks generally don't look at the relative importance of conference vs. tournament success in the abstract, but they often back into their conclusions based on what makes their program look best. I personally think the conference title is more important than the Sweet 16 until about the second week in March, at which point I change my thinking.
 
#280      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Illini in Italy said:
I don't get many posters' fixation an achieving this artificial bar of making the Sweet 16, and the use of this as a measure of the quality of the coach. There are 358 Div. 1 men's teams, and only 16 pass this bar in a season. If we look back over 2010-2019, the following teams made the Sweet 16 more than twice in that 10 year span:

Michigan St. (7)
Wisconsin (6)
Florida (5)
Duke (5)
Kansas (5)
Arizona (4)
Oregon (4)
WVU (4)
Purdue (4)
Michigan (4)
Kentucky (4)
Baylor (4)
Xavier (4)
North Carolina (4)
tOSU (3)
Indiana (3)
Gonzaga (3)
Syracuse (3)
Marquette (3)
Florida St. (3)
Louisville (3)
Tennessee (2)
Texas Tech (2)
Virginia (2)
Butler (2)
UCONN (2)
San Diego St (2)
Florida St (2)
Texas A&M (2)
Miami, FL (2)
Notre Dame (2)
Oklahoma (2)
Wichita St (2)

These total 110 of the possible 160 Sweet Sixteen berths spread across 34 teams Over the ten years. With 358 teams over the ten years, that is 3,580 teams that had an opportunity (however small) to make the Sweet 16. While I didn't look at what coaches were where & when, this gives a pretty good snapshot of who's doing what over this 10 years span. So, if we make the assumption that no teams changed coaches(we know this is not correct, but are using it to control the discussion) that 50 other teams that had a single appearance (160-100=50), plus the teams with multiple appearances (34, or 0.9%) 84 teams have made a Sweet 16 appearance over this ten year span. 84/3,580=0.02234637, or 2.2%. Does this mean the other 97.8% of Div. 1 coaches are not good, or "elites as we like to say around here? Discuss.
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There are 33 teams on that list, 6 from the BIG. If that level of success is your guidepost, then i think you have to say Illinois should get there. Underwood's rebuild has gone really well --no complaints at all, but I think even Underwood would say he embraces an expectation of competing for the conference title and making a run in the dance.

As to whether coaches are good, I think that's very much a sliding scale based on the program and its resources. For an extreme case, watch how Duke handles Scheyer --they are not used to enlisting a full roster of burger boys and not seeing their name in the rankings.
 
#283      

Battle89

Battle89
Battle89
Mr. Tibbs said:
I would probably put getting to an E8 appearance higher than the B1G Tourney, but otherwise I'm in agreement
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Absolutely that was the 'roughest' part of my list, in my mind. Can easily flip those two. I do love me a hung banner though.
 
#284      

Battle89

Battle89
Battle89
BretMyBeachHouse said:
Well, I doubt anyone thinks that conference titles don't mean "a lick"

But here's a real life example. in 1989, Indiana won the conference title. Would you have swapped spots with them? Do you think anyone in America knows other than a few IU fans and a few Illinois fans? Bobby Knight is probably still upset he lost the 1 seed to us.
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Just quoting @FreshlySqueezed when I used that term (below). And to your question, no, because my list ranked final fours ahead of conference championships. Or to put it another way, there are large gaps between a NC and a FF, and between a FF and a conf champ. The bottom of my list gets a little more muddled and closer together. Again just my opinion.

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#285      

wettsten

wettsten
Chicago
wettsten
ChiefGritty said:
It's like ranking poker hands. National Title > Final Four > Conference Title > Sweet Sixteen > Conference Tourney Title > NCAA First Round win
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silverware is silverware and we all have our own opinions. in my mind:
National Title > Final Four > Conference Tourney Title ~ Conference Title > Sweet Sixteen > whatever else
the conference tourney takes at least 4 games in 4 days to win which is takes a lot of endurance. yet conference title take a lot of longevity to win many more games over the period of ~2 months. i'm still happier with either of those over a S16 appearance. E8 might be about equivalent but F4 definitely above.
 
#286      

amillini#2

A
amillini#2
ChiefGritty said:
It's like ranking poker hands. National Title > Final Four > Conference Title > Sweet Sixteen > Conference Tourney Title > NCAA First Round win
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Specific order obviously personal taste from number of variations. I do think our lack of getting to second weekend (which is important for reasons already mentioned) might be creating some recency (or lack there of) bias and overweighting. If we were getting there, but, not Elite 8, suddenly Elite 8 would be the shiny thing that is elusive and have more weight.
For me, conference season success = months of basketball dominance, vs. squeaking in and a really intense week and a day. To each his/her own, though. (Winning in all categories solves the problem, of course)
 
#288      

battle

battle
battle
dbeverly26 said:
Well, he shoulda guarded the damned passer on the inbounds play.

I recall that Knight and the IU fanbase were livid because they thought a conference title meant they should have gotten the #1 seed. Which is not to say anything other than folks generally don't look at the relative importance of conference vs. tournament success in the abstract, but they often back into their conclusions based on what makes their program look best. I personally think the conference title is more important than the Sweet 16 until about the second week in March, at which point I change my thinking.
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Knight blew a gasket. Committee's rationale was we beat them twice, and all but 1 loss was while Gill was hurt, and he had enough games to demonstrate he was back full strength. a sound decision.
 
#289      

dbeverly26

dbeverly26
dbeverly26
battle said:
Knight blew a gasket. Committee's rationale was we beat them twice, and all but 1 loss was while Gill was hurt, and he had enough games to demonstrate he was back full strength. a sound decision.
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We even beat them without Gill! A top ten moment for me as an Illinois fan was after the second round game in Indy that year, when we stopped to get dinner and some IU fan gave us some unsolicited opinions about how they got screwed out of the top seed. Nice to be able to laugh at that type of thing once in a while.
 
#292      

illini80

illini80
Forgottonia
illini80
Emerson Bigguns said:
It’s all about perspective. If you win a conference championship, it’s a much more enjoyable season. If you make a run in the tournament it’s a much more enjoyable off-season.
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Great way to illustrate it. We had a couple of amazing seasons, but the ending certainly left an empty feeling. I just want both. I don’t it’s too much to ask.

Comedy Central Lol GIF by Awkwafina is Nora from Queens
 
#295      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
Calvin said:
Speaking of....Highly critical article on Cal

I can only imagine how upset Kentucky fans are. They have no hope of buying him out, and despite the insane annual recruiting classes, he could be looking at 1 tournament appearance since 2019.
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Calipari has made some questionable choices with his coaching staff. His offensive system is clunky and uncreative.

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There's a lot to unbundle there , isn't there ??
 
#297      

Calvin

C
Calvin
One Man Fast Break said:
you guys gotta realize how manipulative it is to include "since 2019" as though 2020 didn't happen, lol. Saying 2 out of 3 years of missed tournament, with a 15-2 upset sandwiched in is accurate enough. They were gonna be a high seed in 2020.
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I think most fans know the covid year was cancelled. And if you want to defend him, he's hasn't missed the tournament yet for 2023 --there's certainly the talent on paper to get in and make a run. I think the argument's against him boil down to expectations for a program that recruits #1 or #2 in the nation most years.
 
#299      

Chillinini

C
Chillinini
Domestic violence charge against Beard was been dropped.
He will be hired somewhere by next season.
 
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