Well, as an Illini "fan", you have zero positive posts about Illinois. Most of your posts are about Michigan for some reason.
Harbaugh sideways with NCAA
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TentakilRex
- Land O Insects between Quincy-Macomb-Jacksonville
Makes one wonder how stupid some smart guys can be. Someone needs to pull Harbaugh to the side and say "Jim, you have a guaranteed great job with great pay for life unless you screw it up. SO QUIT SCREWING UP!" But I am not a smart guy so what do I know?
lstewart53x3
- Scottsdale, Arizona
Getting caught is pretty stupid.
Doing it though? Got him a spot in the playoff and earned him $10 million last year alone.
Even if he gets fired for it, he’ll land in the NFL, serve a short suspension, and make millions more.
Seems pretty smart to me.
Purdue coach: Know Michigan was at our games
Purdue coach Ryan Walters said his staff has had to teach players new signals and that the team will operate differently when it visits Michigan on Saturday due to evidence of scouting by the Wolverines.
If true scUM should have to forfeit. It is no different than using an ineligible player.
You're absolutely incorrect period! I saw a video last week of at least 8 assistants raising their arms jumping up-and-down telling the defense pass pass when the offense of their opponent got into formation. You're incorrect, you have no idea what you're talking about, get off the board. It was a violation, they should be punished harshly.
Watch opposing teams, videos. Pick up what you can but when you have a Staff member that you sent to almost 40 games. And he's Recording, put in a drop box file of all the calls of Opponents? You go from 16 and 8. And you're nothing in the big ten, especially against Ohio State! Now your 33-1 after you start sending out people to videotape Opponents signals. And then you have assistance on the sideline, as soon as the opposing teamns offensive line lines up and the quarterback comes up. They're jumping up-and-down like freaking anxiety, Ridden, and panic disordered assistant coaches telling the defense. It's cheating period!
If you have to do that to beat Ohio state and Illinois and other teams. Your coach needs to be fired, and your University needs to be stripped of a big 10 title, plain and simple. Cheating is Cheating! Duck tape on your fingers and move forward. Michigan is now in the same conversation as SMU, even with NIL!
If you have to do that to beat Ohio state and Illinois and other teams. Your coach needs to be fired, and your University needs to be stripped of a big 10 title, plain and simple. Cheating is Cheating! Duck tape on your fingers and move forward. Michigan is now in the same conversation as SMU, even with NIL!
Please show me where I said that Connor Stalions didn't cheat, or that he wasn't on the sideline. Or even that he never talked (for all of three seconds!) to Jim Harbaugh.
Let's take a quick look at the season thus far, shall we?
Illini Football 2023
| Home: 2-3 | Away: 1-2 Record: 3-5 (1-4) | ||
| Date | Opponent | Result |
| Sat, Sept 2 | Toledo | W 30-28 |
| Fri, Sept 8 | at Kansas | L 23-34 |
| Sat, Sept 16 | Penn State | L 13-30 |
| Sat, Sept 23 | Florida Atlantic | W 23-17 |
| Sat, Sept 30 | at Purdue | L 19-44 |
| Fri, Oct 6 | Nebraska | L 7-20 |
| Sat, Oct 14 | at Maryland | W 27-24 |
| Sat, Oct 21 | Wisconsin | L 21-25 |
I hate to say this, but it looks like the Illini haven't given us all that much to crow about. Basketball looked pretty good against Kansas though.
Well, now it's down from ten to eight jumping up and down. But so what? Jumping up and down on the sidelines isn't even a 15-yard illegal procedure penalty. Neither is telling your team that you expect a pass. Or even figuring out your opponents' signals. What IS against the rules is having people go to football games off campus. And so far there was only one guy on the sideline that we know was involved in that.
Balloons the Elephant says I'm clearly worried -- and I'll own that. I'm worried that the Big Ten and college football are being rushed into overreacting about a pretty tetchy violation of observing games at other schools -- it's not like college football games are private affairs -- that may or may not be linked to the head coach. Accusations are being made behind closed doors, by people with axes to grind, with Michigan's reps locked out of the conversation. That's not how this should be done.
If -- to take one very possible example -- Bret Bielema thinks that Michigan had busted our signals last November, and that's why we lost -- fine. He should come out and say it. In public. And he should be ready to point to plays where Michigan suddenly checked into just the right defense or offensive counter. Give specifics. None of this whispering in closed meetings with the Commisioner.
Look, I'm going to drop this for a couple days. (Don't thank me all at once) and get some sleep, and then get some work done Friday, and then watch some football on Saturday. Illini included, FWIW, because I actually did get a degree from here -- though I'll admit I'm more of a basketball fan (Probably not alone in that) and then maybe I'll pick this back up on Monday.
"Muck Fichigan" isn't a very clever tee-shirt slogan. It's an even stupider policy. If saying so makes me a Michigan fan, so be it. I've been accused of worse things.
One guy going to scout and record opponents’ games (or sending others), deciphering the signals, and sharing them with the staff is a team violation. The team hired the guy. The staff (those 8) relied on his analysis. The team played accordingly. It’s a team effort and a team violation. Teams only need one quarterback. Teams only need one illegal scout stealing signals. The team should forfeit all games against those they illegally scouted. And the head coach is responsible for it all.
There is no worse thing in college football,
I’m an engineer, not a lawyer. However, a lawyer‘s blog I follow has been writing lately about evidence vs proof. Our media gets this wrong regularly saying there’s “no evidence” of something when they mean there’s “not yet proof”. Now some are doing this with Michigan, where there may not yet be conclusive proof. However, there is a growing pile of incriminating evidence. The picture is getting pretty clear. Enough so for sanctions? We’ll see.
Proof can be a confession or just a collection of evidence, the bits and pieces which individually and on their own do not constitute proof. They’re puzzle pieces. You don’t need all of the pieces to confidently discern the picture, at least not the portions proving the violation. Not all evidence is admissible in criminal court (e.g. hearsay) but it is still evidence.
There is no proof Harbaugh authorized the scouting, not that we know of anyway, but the rules say the buck stops on his desk. He is responsible for it. There‘s a lot of evidence the team used and benefited from prohibited scouting, like the W-L record before/after Stalings’ dirty work and his prominent sideline behavior. Does this evidence amount to proof? That’s for the NCAA, B1G, CFP, and college football public opinion to decide. The college football fan base seems to be leaning toward a guilty verdict. The NCAA may have access to even more evidence (e.g. emails among staff).
The CFP committee is on the hot seat, with pressure to act soon. A forfeiture decision by the NCAA would make their decision easy. Selecting Michigan for the CFP wouldn't sit well with many fans and would tarnish the outcome via terrible media publicity. I suspect the NCAA will need to act much quicker than usual to protect the reputation of the game. If Michigan wasn’t in line for the CFP, the NCAA could work at their usual leisurely pace, but tic, tic, tic . . .
Proof can be a confession or just a collection of evidence, the bits and pieces which individually and on their own do not constitute proof. They’re puzzle pieces. You don’t need all of the pieces to confidently discern the picture, at least not the portions proving the violation. Not all evidence is admissible in criminal court (e.g. hearsay) but it is still evidence.
There is no proof Harbaugh authorized the scouting, not that we know of anyway, but the rules say the buck stops on his desk. He is responsible for it. There‘s a lot of evidence the team used and benefited from prohibited scouting, like the W-L record before/after Stalings’ dirty work and his prominent sideline behavior. Does this evidence amount to proof? That’s for the NCAA, B1G, CFP, and college football public opinion to decide. The college football fan base seems to be leaning toward a guilty verdict. The NCAA may have access to even more evidence (e.g. emails among staff).
The CFP committee is on the hot seat, with pressure to act soon. A forfeiture decision by the NCAA would make their decision easy. Selecting Michigan for the CFP wouldn't sit well with many fans and would tarnish the outcome via terrible media publicity. I suspect the NCAA will need to act much quicker than usual to protect the reputation of the game. If Michigan wasn’t in line for the CFP, the NCAA could work at their usual leisurely pace, but tic, tic, tic . . .
It will be interesting how Michigan fares in the rest of their games obviously now that coaches will know and Michigan cannot rely on it anymore
Sources: TCU knew of Michigan's sign-stealing scheme prior to CFP game, used 'dummy signals' to dupe Wolverines
The Horned Frogs coaching staff was aware of Michigan's antics after being warned by several coaching staffs. And they had a plan to counter it in last season's College Football Playoff semifinal win.www.yahoo.com
Interesting read how TCU used fake signals to beat scUM. Big Ten coaches warned TCU
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
Honestly, I think being a Michigan apologist is worse than being a Michigan fan, even though there's a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram.
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
I don't find him an apologist via his postings on the subject, just someone circumspect about what may have happened. Circumstantial evidence, even a mountain of it, won't precipitate punishment against Michigan's program. That video of Harbaugh "talking" to Stalions at last year's MSU game, for example: he's talking toward Stalions. An assistant standing between them (wearing a headset) seems to me to be the more likely target of his verbiage. Occam's razor. Goodness, I hate to associate myself with anything originating in Missouri; however, Show Me.
It won't surprise me if Harbaugh knew of Stalions' entrepreneurial activity but it also won't if he intelligently insulated himself from the guy. Any dude (he's not even an alum of the school) who lives in his own car in San Diego, instead of an apartment, so he can save money to travel to every UM game, and allegedly writes a 5-600-page manifesto about the mission and future of the program, is a true zealot and eager cannon fodder, and would no doubt take a bullet for Harbaugh and the program. However, I've dealt with the media often enough in my career (and observed them as a consumer for long enough) to be highly skeptical of what I read at the outset of these sorts of salacious stories, and for a long while after. Sports Web sites are clickbait magnets. I'm awaiting the smoking gun. Meanwhile, apparently UM is proceeding with a Harbaugh contract extension, contrary to what the WSJ printed earlier in the week. That holds more weight with me than anything I've seen so far if in fact it is true.
The wheels of justice grind slowly. I'll wager that they'll grind too slowly to keep UM from the playoff games this season because way too much $$ is at stake for the conference and networks. Sadly, it's the same driver that led the ref to look the other way on that hold off the line on Michigan's final drive against us last November, which put them in easy FG range for the nation's best PK. It's unjust and corrupt but seems to be the reality of the sitch. The BT and big time college sports are, after all, Chinatown, Jake.
If anyone in the executive coaching chain at Michigan knew of what Stalions was doing I hope it comes to light and the program gets hammered hard. I remain skeptical that it will happen, let alone that it will happen this month or next. Hope I'm wrong.
I'm pinning my hopes on OSU (and/or Penn State) beating Michigan and keeping them out of the playoff. Having seen all three of those teams play several times this season, however, I'm not holding my breath.
The Age-Old conflict between ‘needing’ to win at all costs... versus acting ethically and in a spirit of good sportsmanship.
‘Winning’ brings along those certain well-established benefits of Money and Attention. While acting ethically and as ‘fair and honest’ competitors often puts one at a competitive disadvantage in a somewhat shark-tank business... and can shut off access to those same benefits. And as we know, very often it’s the Pursuit of Winning and the attention and mega-dollars it beings with it that determines that argument.
And truth be told... you know that there must have been plenty of things over the years that someone 'got away' with and which never came to light.
It just comes down to the ethical makeup of the decision-makers of a program. Bending (or breaking) the rules will never be eliminated from sporting competition. It’s just too tempting for those who seek a shortcut to ‘success’.
But does a program and institution ‘need’ to win because their fans and alums and donors have become addicted to winning like a drug? Or your State gains some kind of pride and self-worth that quickly disappears into nothing if you do not win Championships?
Or do you as a program and institution live for something greater? That you truly are a place of higher learning and teaching... that instructs young people (and the fan base and general public) that some things are in fact greater than ‘winning’? Like doing things the right way and that when you do win you have done proudly and in the true spirit of the rules and fair competition?
Winning or losing does NOT start in the arena of play. It starts long before that in the hidden places of the human spirit. And then, maybe in the coach’s office or behind the desk of a donor’s business office.
If you can't play fair... then you have no business 'playing' at all.
I feel that Michigan should lose both BIG championship trophies that they collected over the last 2 years and have to endure a Post Season ban for the next three. Ryan Walters stated in an interview this week that Purdue has changed all of their signs going into their game with Michigan this week. The A.D.'s in the league are all in favor of penalization that will keep this from happening again. Time will only tell.
Yeah, I think we're beyond "preponderance of the evidence" burden of proof and approaching "beyond a reasonable doubt" just on media reports and internet sleuths. It would defy logic to suggest Harbaugh did not know of the scheme - Stalions was on the sideline next to the coaches with laminated sheets in his hand with the opposing teams signals on them and talking directly to coaches and Harbaugh. The fact that this guy is on the sidelines with the coaches speaks volumes in itself - he's not one of the assistant coaches.
Does anyone think Harbaugh would allow Stalions on the sideline right next to the coaches giving them real time guidance on the opposing team's signals if he didn't have faith in the accuracy of his scouting? That he wouldn't know the source of Stalions information? That would defy logic Harbaugh or any head coach would allow that. It doesn't matter what he admits or not, the head coach is responsible for their program, but this is obvious he would know what the source of the information is
TentakilRex
- Land O Insects between Quincy-Macomb-Jacksonville
Warning everyone in advance, no amount of evidence will change the minds of the loudest Michigan fans or at least they will go with "we would m-have killed you anyway" excuse. For example, Astros fans is the loudest, most annoying group on baseball twitter and they live in the mentions of any team they dislike especially the pet hate the 2023 World Champ Texas Rangers,
Message boards and reader comments to articles are full of outraged, OUTRAGED Michigan fans saying scUM should sue if B1G or NCAA apply sanctions. Sue them for $ millions in damages to the University’s reputation! They’re gonna pay if they dare to impugn Michigan!
Any lawsuits arising from this will be civil suits, decided by the preponderance of evidence. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a very high bar, applicable to criminal law and entirely irrelevant here. Is it at least 51% likely the accusations are true? If so, the only issue is whether any penalties are unreasonably severe? This would seem to depend on how much harm is perceived to have been done to scUM’s opponents.
Thank God that the real perpetrator got punished! /s
www.espn.com
Source: Michigan fires football analyst Stalions
Michigan has fired football analyst Connor Stalions amid an NCAA investigation into an alleged sign-stealing operation by the Wolverines, a source confirmed to ESPN.
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