TSJ Thread

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#251      
Was fairly connected to the program when Lou was here and that spilled into subsequent years when he left. I have known Self for quite some time, albeit not well. What I can say from my personal interactions with him is that he is sincere, charismatic, thoughtful, and actually a terrific guy.

I think if most of Illini Nation is being honest with themselves... we really loved the guy. (And many still do). Since we love the Illini program more... we were hurt that he would not be here to further elevate the program even further from what he did. And we mourn for the years that were lost to falling behind.

But you can’t hold someone’s dream against them. If he truly wanted a job like Kansas then more power to him. And if you honestly like the guy you have to be willing to affirm the guy in his decision. Even when that goes against your own sentiments.

Personally, I only want someone coaching The Beloved who views THIS job as his dream job. Now and forever. Maybe someone like... Coach U?

That – and only that – should rule the hiring decisions about who gets to lead the Orange and Blue into the great sporting unknowns ahead.
 
#252      
This might be a dumb question, but can the defense use this in their case to show that the accuser's claims might not be credible?
This would fall under rape shield law that most states (including Kansas) have. In Kansas, you can’t introduce evidence of the victim’s prior sexual conduct (it generally includes any victim shaming and I think that would apply to her prior sexual allegations). Kansas law: Except as provided in subsection (c), in any prosecution to which this section applies, evidence of the complaining witness' previous sexual conduct with any person including the defendant shall not be admissible, and no reference shall be made thereto in any proceeding before the court, except under the following conditions….


There is one major exception. Shannon can make a motion to ask the court allow it. The court can only allow it if found relevant (the judge usually uses a balancing test to decide if the relevance outweighs the prejudice).

For those who care about the language, the judge must find the “previous sexual conduct of the complaining witness is relevant and is not otherwise inadmissible as evidence, the court may make an order stating what evidence may be introduced by the defendant and the nature of the questions to be permitted.”
 
#254      
I would also guess he is back at some point this season. When is that? Depends on what unfolds in the next couple of weeks. As we sit here now, things are being worked on

Does this imply it will take a couple of weeks for the 3 person panel to complete their review and decide on TSJ suspension during the interim period?
 
#255      
Bill Self is a great guy to hang out with. I hated seeing him leave, and I usually do not slam Gunther on anything as he truly is an ”Illinois” guy. In this case though, you bring the brinks truck up to Self’s office and ask what it is going to take. He may still (probably would have) said no, but the leaving in the middle of the night and “butt” hurt look was just not the right tactic. Offer him the moon and see what he says?
Its all Coors Lights under the bridge now, but if he truly can help show that this is a sham (assuming it is) then he goes to an entirely different level in Illinois lore.
 
#256      

skyIdub

Winged Warrior
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#258      
This would fall under rape shield law that most states (including Kansas) have. In Kansas, you can’t introduce evidence of the victim’s prior sexual conduct (it generally includes any victim shaming and I think that would apply to her prior sexual allegations). Kansas law: Except as provided in subsection (c), in any prosecution to which this section applies, evidence of the complaining witness' previous sexual conduct with any person including the defendant shall not be admissible, and no reference shall be made thereto in any proceeding before the court, except under the following conditions….


There is one major exception. Shannon can make a motion to ask the court allow it. The court can only allow it if found relevant (the judge usually uses a balancing test to decide if the relevance outweighs the prejudice).

For those who care about the language, the judge must find the “previous sexual conduct of the complaining witness is relevant and is not otherwise inadmissible as evidence, the court may make an order stating what evidence may be introduced by the defendant and the nature of the questions to be permitted.”
Actually, this would not be bringing her sexual activity in but rather a previous false allegation. Might not be admissible but don't believe your rape shield would apply.
 
#259      
That has been my concern. Here is a guy who has poured his heart and soul into basketball for his entire life. (Up at 4-5 every morning to shoot!) How is he dealing with this. It could really break him or could make him stronger if he is able to emerge from it.
He's had this over his head to some extent the entire season and played like a man absolutely possessed. Put me in the camp that it'll make him stronger if he manages to emerge from it in-season.
 
#260      
My last comment I said how I hope he comes back after Purdue for sake of things probably playing out more smoothly that way. I actually change my mind and hope (but know he probably won’t) come back for NW. Purdue without their full student section.

But Imo josh should basically just make this the argument (while adding other necessary or helpful info):
Illinois respects and does it’s best to work with law enforcement and tries to help with ongoing investigations, etc. but at the same time the justice system is NOT set up to weigh and balance student athletes, charges and the impacts these have on their lives. In a dollar value, we are talking millions against someone who hasn’t been charged of a crime. Add in the context and other info to weigh in for tsj’s innocence that he has potentially expressed (hopefully through lawyers so it can be protected) and imo it should be just as controversial he is suspended indefinitely when he is declaring he is innocent.

The system is set up so that the women has a right to fight to defend herself through the courts and what she has to look forward to is justice against a guilty person. It isn’t perfect but at the end she has that. On the flip side, tsj should have JUST AS MUCH of a right to fight for his innocence, and imo I don’t see how this suspension treats both parties fairly. Already punishing him at a cost of possibly millions, not even counting in the cost to his public image.

The last thing I’ll bring up I didn’t see anyone talk about after it was said but one of the guys here mentioned how tsj didn’t force his hand anywhere and how he didn’t force anyone else’s hand anywhere either (maybe this was meant as hypothetical). First of all up until that point the other day I didn’t know there was action coming from both of them, thought it was just by tsj. If there is action that happened from her, while it’s not guaranteed I feel at least in a small way that arguably should bring the burden of proof up from her side ( At least involving the 3 person panel). If you reach your hand into a guys pants or whatever and then later claim you didn’t consent.. you should really be burdened with proving yourself because to me that suggests she was a willing participant. If no evidence is provided that proves he threatened her or made her feel that way, or no evidence or him being psychical in that type of way, indefinite suspension just feels like it goes against almost the spirit of US law which is having our freedoms and there being a burden of proof.
Which is why I’d really love to see any video evidence from the bar or surrounding area. If she is shown to be initiating any of the contact or even just being the one approaching him at any point before or after without him doing anything to trigger that, that’s a good sign for him if he’s trying to prove he is innocent and this girl was free to do whatever she wanted.
 
#261      

sbillini

st petersburg, fl
I’m gonna get flak for this, but gonna throw it out there…

If this situation was going on another P5 school, esp a blue blood, and a high power coach came in and cleaned up the mess, we’d be crucifying the school and the whole situation. It wouldn’t matter what the details of the situation are, because none of us would actually do the diligence to understand that before coming to judgment….at least not until after the fact when all the details are out there.

My point is, for the sake of justice, for the sake of our schools reputation, and most importantly, for the sake of any potential victims in this situation, I hope whatever is going on behind the scenes is appropriate and something we can all sleep at night with. Further, we should all be ready for some serious vitriol from John q Public if TSJ suits up for the Illini while charges are still active (and probably even if the charges do get dropped).
 
#263      
I’m gonna get flak for this, but gonna throw it out there…

If this situation was going on another P5 school, esp a blue blood, and a high power coach came in and cleaned up the mess, we’d be crucifying the school and the whole situation. It wouldn’t matter what the details of the situation are, because none of us would actually do the diligence to understand that before coming to judgment….at least not until after the fact when all the details are out there.

My point is, for the sake of justice, for the sake of our schools reputation, and most importantly, for the sake of any potential victims in this situation, I hope whatever is going on behind the scenes is appropriate and something we can all sleep at night with. Further, we should all be ready for some serious vitriol from John q Public if TSJ suits up for the Illini while charges are still active (and probably even if the charges do get dropped).
You do what's right, not what's popular.
 
#264      
Illinois respects and does it’s best to work with law enforcement and tries to help with ongoing investigations, etc. but at the same time the justice system is NOT set up to weigh and balance student athletes, charges and the impacts these have on their lives. In a dollar value, we are talking millions against someone who hasn’t been charged of a crime.
Agreed, which is why these zero tolerance policies are garbage.
 
#268      

lstewart53x3

Scottsdale, Arizona
Obviously.

We’re just assuming what bill self is doing is what’s right. Let’s at least admit that. We wouldn’t so readily be giving him or anyone else the benefit of the doubt if it wasn’t Illinois.
We’re on the outside, so we don’t know what kind of evidence they have. If they do have solid enough evidence to lift the suspension on TJ, you do it, regardless of what message board fans have to say.
 
#270      
Obviously.

We’re just assuming what bill self is doing is what’s right. Let’s at least admit that. We wouldn’t so readily be giving him or anyone else the benefit of the doubt if it wasn’t Illinois.
No one knows what, if anything, Self is or isn't doing. Maybe he is just called to the stand to relay his thoughts on a similar experience if that's allowable. Nothing wrong with that. Rather he a high profile coach or a person off the street his testimony is and will be what it is.
 
#271      

sbillini

st petersburg, fl
No one knows what, if anything, Self is or isn't doing. Maybe he is just called to the stand to relay his thoughts on a similar experience if that's allowable. Nothing wrong with that. Rather he a high profile coach or a person off the street his testimony is and will be what it is.
Nothing I’ve said disagrees with that. All I said is let’s hope it is above board. Because if this exact same situation was happening with a KU player, we all know what this board would be saying, rightly or wrongly. Let’s just hope it’s all rightly
 
#272      

sbillini

st petersburg, fl
We’re on the outside, so we don’t know what kind of evidence they have. If they do have solid enough evidence to lift the suspension on TJ, you do it, regardless of what message board fans have to say.

I’m pretty sure nobody that matters cares what the message boards has to say.

If there was enough evidence to lift the suspension already, I’m guessing they would have. The fact that bill self is getting involved, means that they don’t yet. I don’t know what bill self is actually doing. All I’m saying is it let’s hope it’s something above board.
 
#273      
I’m pretty sure nobody that matters cares what the message boss has to say.

If there was enough evidence to lift the suspension already, I’m guessing they would have. The fact that bill self is getting involved, means that they don’t yet. I don’t know what bill self is actually doing. All I’m saying is it let’s hope it’s something above board.
Message Boss = Dan
 
#275      
Nothing I’ve said disagrees with that. All I said is let’s hope it is above board. Because if this exact same situation was happening with a KU player, we all know what this board would be saying, rightly or wrongly. Let’s just hope it’s all rightly
Not to be argumentative, but what this board says is 100% irrelevant outside the walls of this board. I share your hope that everything is above board for TJ's sake, but he, the university, and the whole Wide, Wide World of Sports don't give a flying attempt at relations with a rolling pastry what is said here. It matters to us, but no only else.
 
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