Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#301      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
AZILL said:
I agree with you Fighter, I do my absolute best to remove my Illini fandom from my decision, as hard as it is. But I think the same as you, the Illinois job is the better choice. No, not by a country mile, but using simple logic. I'll just throw this out there...... food for thought, compare the trajectories of coaches who worked at both schools, AFTER they left..... I know the Keady/Painter timeline kind of warps things..... but have either of those 2 gotten offers to move that would be upgrades???? Better NCAA school or NBA????
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Yeah, for me another simple thing is this … how much success is because of the coaches themselves vs. the advantages the program has? Henson, Kruger, Self, Weber and Underwood all winning Big Ten titles or getting #1 seeds suggests Illinois is remarkably self-sustaining … only John Groce couldn’t figure it out. It’s more difficult to judge Purdue’s advantages and separate those from Keady and Painter just being really good coaches, JMO.
 
#304      

illini0440

illini0440
illini0440
IllinoisssssssVarsity said:
Where is Indy’s pyrotechnic Sean Miller gif when you need it
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College Basketball Sport GIF by Xavier Men's Basketball
 
#305      

jamarvelous31

jamarvelous31
jamarvelous31
Fighter of the Nightman said:
All you are claiming is that Purdue had better results with Painter during the John Groce Era. Which is obvious. If you want to chalk that up to Illinois having a lower ceiling than Purdue, that’s your strange prerogative … I’ll go with the explanation lying solely with John Groce being a much inferior coach to Painter. Our programs’ accomplishments in the last 4+ years are remarkably similar on paper, and it’d take a peculiar desire to promote Purdue as better to say otherwise … something I frankly cannot understand why an Illini fan would want to do.

And neither statistic has anything more than a minor impact on which is a better job. Baylor’s had a much better 5-year span than Kentucky … it’s not even close to a better job.
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The point is that success breeds success. Most coaches would want to go into a long term successful program and I believe their relatively greater recent success would make them slightly more appealing than a program BU dragged out of the abyss that was the Groce era. Again, it's 4 vs 5 in tier 1.

If we keep our current trajectory over the next few years this job will be top 2.
 
#306      

jamarvelous31

jamarvelous31
jamarvelous31
Fighter of the Nightman said:
So you think we were a clearly better job in 2021 when we were a #1 seed and much better than Purdue because we had a “real chance for a ship” that year? And again, we have a better record than Purdue over the last 5 years … so to answer your question, no I do not think John Groce’s record at Illinois which makes up that difference is relevant at all here.
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We hadn't made the tourney in the 7 years prior to that whereas Purdue had 2 S16s & an E8 in that time. There's a difference in how you would define a "favorite" both in betting odds and between them being ranked #1 3 years in a row and the highest we got that year was #2.

We also can just disagree, singing Purdue's praises is hurting my soul.
 
#307      

jamarvelous31

jamarvelous31
jamarvelous31
illini0440 said:
The pools would be very similar but I know who Illinois would contact first and it probably wouldn’t get past that.(in a world where they are the only two jobs open)
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I also think Purdue is most likely to stick to the Keady/Painter coaching tree whereas IL has to go national.

If it opened up in 4-5 years hopefully you'd have Chester/Rev/Dee(?) in a great place to take over.
 
#308      

dcenters33

dcenters33
dcenters33
Captain Bubbles said:
I agree with this post. I attended the EIU Homecoming football game last year vs UT Martin and from what I saw, the Panthers football team is in good hands with Coach Wilkerson. I was a student at EIU during the Jimmy Garoppolo & Dino Babers era. What a time that was. Jimmy G is still the best QB I've watched in person. The passes he threw to Erik Lora and others were mindblown.
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Happy to see them back on track, had some down years after Jimmy G. We were pretty bad when I attended and attendance was poor. My grandpa worked at EIU when I was a kid and the games were always so much fun to go to.
 
#310      

Big Jack

Big Jack
Decatur
Big Jack
dcenters33 said:
Happy to see them back on track, had some down years after Jimmy G. We were pretty bad when I attended and attendance was poor. My grandpa worked at EIU when I was a kid and the games were always so much fun to go to.
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Good thing you weren't there in the early 70s neither team was worth watching... Best teams were swimming, golf and tennis... Oh Boy!!!!
 
#311      

Mr. Tibbs

Mr. Tibbs
southeast DuPage
Mr. Tibbs
illini0440 said:
See ain’t coming back here. But I’m also in the camp where idc if the head coach is an alum or not.
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agree
I dont care what school the coach went to or played for .
Just want the best available regardless of background .

I expect Brad to stay in Champaign until he retires , so we should have 5-7 more years at least , as he’s 60 now
 
#312      

BashCtIllini

BashCtIllini
BashCtIllini
jamarvelous31 said:
I also think Purdue is most likely to stick to the Keady/Painter coaching tree whereas IL has to go national.

If it opened up in 4-5 years hopefully you'd have Chester/Rev/Dee(?) in a great place to take over.
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Purdue would go after Shrewsberry. But the overlooked aspect is timing. Painter is still pretty young. Shrewsberry will likely be well established before Painter retires and thus harder to shake from a good thing.

Had Self stayed one more year, is there any doubt we would have hired Thad Matta coming off an Elite 8? What would Illinois look like today going from Self to Thad Matta? Remember, had Self stayed one more year, we would have had Charlie Villanueva. Have to imagine Matta could have got all of those Indy guys to come to Illinois as easily as he did to Ohio State. And surprise surprise, the year Matta had to step away because of his back, is the same year we hired Underwood.

So what would our world look like today if we went Kruger, Self, Matta, Underwood? It's all about timing. Sometimes things work out great and Alabama can get Nate Oats. Other times, the perfect candidate slips through your fingers, all because of timing.
 
#315      

dcenters33

dcenters33
dcenters33
Big Jack said:
Good thing you weren't there in the early 70s neither team was worth watching... Best teams were swimming, golf and tennis... Oh Boy!!!!
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Haha I had a lot of friends on the track/XC team, they dominated every year. Unfortunately they were the only team worth cheering for.
 
#316      

Guest

Guest
Guest
WyattEarp said:
Lol 😂 Hang in there Fighter.


This reminds of the time I said: Andres Feliz was one of my sentimental Illini faves of all time. & Lon Kruger was my personal TOP 3 favorite Illini coach just ahead of Henson…and you would have thought that I desecrated the Illini Union and punched out the lead singer of REO Speedwagon on the Sabbath.

Instead, I got page after page how I was completely nuts because: Eddie Johnson, Derek Harper, Bruce Douglas, Doug Altenbetger, Kendall Gill, Nick Anderson, Dee Brown, James Augustine, Luther Head, Deron Williams, Kenny Battle….blah..blah blah bla…and Lou Henson parted the Illinois River and turned it into Orange Kool-Aid…blah…blah, flipp-itty blah..lol.

Anyways, apparently you can’t do that here. Lol…
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I'd be okay with the bolded part. Doesn't even have to be on the Sabbath. Any day would do.
 
#317      

othawhitemeat

O
othawhitemeat
Indy Illini Fan said:
Yes ... I think they can ... If you give certain coaches that kind of talent and UK brand and resources... They will do more with it than Cal did ...

Cal has not been that good since 2018 ... He's also lost his edge recruiting-wise... Just look at the top 15 this year out of HS ... Cal got one guy ... When Cal had things rolling ... He was getting a handful ...
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Always been significantly overrated as a coach, IMO. Won the one year because he had the two top picks in the Draft with one being Anthony Davis, one of the best players in the NBA when healthy. Has lost other years including with Wall, Patterson, Bledsoe, and Cousins (that is impressive to not even make the Final 4 with that roster).
 
#318      

OrangeBlue98

OrangeBlue98
Des Moines, IA
OrangeBlue98
jamarvelous31 said:
I also think Purdue is most likely to stick to the Keady/Painter coaching tree whereas IL has to go national.

If it opened up in 4-5 years hopefully you'd have Chester/Rev/Dee(?) in a great place to take over.
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I don't see that as a negative, to be honest. Feeling like you have to just stick with the coaching tree is where a program can become stale.

I realize there are exceptions. Duke seems to be doing well with Scheyer. But look at UNC. They have had a few potholes staying in the Dean Smith tree. It's not a slam dunk that staying in the tree will continue long-term success - even if some of those coaches in the tree look outside of the program (see - Tommy Amaker at Michigan).

All else equal, I'd prefer to have an Illinois coaching tree from which we can hire a coach. But I don't think it's required or even overly desirable. My opinion only, I'd like to see guys like Chester get a head coaching chance and Tyler Underwood get an expanded role on a staff that isn't led by his father. I understand the nepotism items, which is why I'd really like to see Tyler eventually "leave the nest" and show his ability in a different environment. I think he has the chops for it, but I really won't be sure until I see him working for someone other than his dad.
 
#319      

RockfordIllini

R
RockfordIllini
OrangeBlue98 said:
I don't see that as a negative, to be honest. Feeling like you have to just stick with the coaching tree is where a program can become stale.

I realize there are exceptions. Duke seems to be doing well with Scheyer. But look at UNC. They have had a few potholes staying in the Dean Smith tree. It's not a slam dunk that staying in the tree will continue long-term success - even if some of those coaches in the tree look outside of the program (see - Tommy Amaker at Michigan).

All else equal, I'd prefer to have an Illinois coaching tree from which we can hire a coach. But I don't think it's required or even overly desirable. My opinion only, I'd like to see guys like Chester get a head coaching chance and Tyler Underwood get an expanded role on a staff that isn't led by his father. I understand the nepotism items, which is why I'd really like to see Tyler eventually "leave the nest" and show his ability in a different environment. I think he has the chops for it, but I really won't be sure until I see him working for someone other than his dad.
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Yes. I think staying within the same coaching tree is much more important for football, where it just takes so much longer to build a program. Iowa, Wisconsin etc have made their bones having a system, recruiting guys that fit the system, and developing them. The players do the same thing for 5 years.

Basketball you can build a team very quickly. Look at Matta at Butler who has thrown together a bunch of transfers and put together a pretty competitive team. Or Tang at KState last year. For basketball, I would rather grab the best coach available rather than the best coach in a particular tree.
 
#321      

OrangeBlue98

OrangeBlue98
Des Moines, IA
OrangeBlue98
So getting back into this whole "tier" thing, in my opinion the Illinois job is one where there are very few other college basketball jobs that would be considered a clear upgrade from it. Sure, you might see a coach move from Illinois for other reasons than just because "it's a better program", but for me I just don't see any program other than Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina, (right now) UConn, and MAYBE (strong maybe right now) Louisville where a successful head coach at Illinois would move and everyone would look and say, "Yep, I can see that move making sense".

As much as I hated Self leaving for Kansas, I understood it. It's Kansas. He was a young grad assistant there. He's originally from Oklahoma. I don't think anyone could objectively look at that and really fault Self for moving. That and Kentucky were probably the only job that he would left Illinois for when factoring in the coaching tree situation we have talked a lot about.

We can debate Illinois vs Purdue, etc. all day. But really, there are a very select number of college jobs where if you left Illinois to take, the objective consensus would say it was a clear step up. And there just are not very many of those in college basketball.
 
#322      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
OrangeBlue98 said:
So getting back into this whole "tier" thing, in my opinion the Illinois job is one where there are very few other college basketball jobs that would be considered a clear upgrade from it. Sure, you might see a coach move from Illinois for other reasons than just because "it's a better program", but for me I just don't see any program other than Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina, (right now) UConn, and MAYBE (strong maybe right now) Louisville where a successful head coach at Illinois would move and everyone would look and say, "Yep, I can see that move making sense".

As much as I hated Self leaving for Kansas, I understood it. It's Kansas. He was a young grad assistant there. He's originally from Oklahoma. I don't think anyone could objectively look at that and really fault Self for moving. That and Kentucky were probably the only job that he would left Illinois for when factoring in the coaching tree situation we have talked a lot about.

We can debate Illinois vs Purdue, etc. all day. But really, there are a very select number of college jobs where if you left Illinois to take, the objective consensus would say it was a clear step up. And there just are not very many of those in college basketball.
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Good post. I also think a relatively minor yet important factor is just the exhaustion of starting over. If you are coming off of a Final Four at Illinois and have a top 10 class coming in and Duke comes calling to replace Scheyer because they have missed the Tournament a few years in a row ... do you move if the salary offers are the same? Duke is the unquestionably superior program, but is Illinois good ENOUGH that uprooting your family and building a program back up for a salary Illinois is willing to match? Perhaps the headache of it all counts against Duke, even if Duke is clearly superior on paper.

Additionally, I think some guys like the idea of standing out in a program's history. I absolutely love the guy, but Lou Henson has a court named after him for reaching one Final Four ... he'd blend into the histories of Kansas or Kentucky. The coach who wins Illinois its first National Championship is going to have a damn statue outside SFC one day, haha. Duke fans expect another one in your tenure, or you have failed. All that is to say that coaches take "worse" jobs all the time, I would imagine, for a variety of more subjective factors.
 
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