Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#451      
Illini2010-11
217sports said:
This is getting old at this point
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Barring a major turnaround this year, it will be one time in 9 years.

Considering Brad is a top-10 paid coach, this is a fair criticism to bring up when confronted with data about other coaches (even considering all the regular season success and banners hung). An 11% success rate is a very low ROI for the money spent (and no, I am not calling for Brad's dismissal).
 
#453      
21ChampaignSt
ChiefGritty said:
But that's not a question of turnarounds or rebuilds, we're talking a decade into those tenures when they were established as successes.

Those are all guys who for one reason or another were thought of as "can't do it in March", until they weren't.


"If you assume that it can't go wrong, statistically it's guaranteed not to go wrong!"
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Bartow: Illinois -> UCLA
Henson: Illinois -> New Mexico St. (more of a lifetime achievement farewell tour type gig)
Kruger: Illinois -> NBA
Self: Illinois -> Kansas
Weber: Illinois -> Kansas St.
Groce: Illinois -> Akron

One of these things is not like the other.
 
#454      
mhuml32
Indy Illini Fan said:
Brad knew Tim wasn’t coming back in very early in the off season …
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#455      
Illiniindian
IMPE Legend said:
Weber was a good coach. Recruiting was Weber's downfall...but not sure "connecting with recruits" was the issue. I always felt like he was simply an honest man trying to operate within a dishonest system. Maybe I'm way off but it always seemed like he wasn't paying players when the big programs were. So I guess he wasn't connecting with their wallets?
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Yes.

Remember he refused to cut his hair or something like that in protest of unfair practices?
 
#457      
Illiniindian
bluemountain said:
Similar in some respects....with talent they could both consistently win during the regular season, but struggled in the postseason and are clearly a step below the elite level.

Different in that Lou could be competitive with poor or below average talent. His teams rarely got blown out and even at the start of his tenure they hovered around the .500 mark and could give more talented teams a struggle. Brad, as evidenced by his first two years here, not so much. While not in the caliber of a Knight or Keady, Lou was much better at coaching the game than Brad
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I don’t agree with this. Brad’s first teams played very competitively against superior teams. Brad’s team have been over performing for years. This year has been an exception.
 
#458      
Illini 993
In the years leading up to their first FF, those coaches made the second weekend times/years: Jay Wright 4/7, Bennett 3/9, Ryan 6/12, Drew 4/16, Painter 6/18. Underwood 1/8. (this includes the COVID year for all the coaches except Ryan, who was out by then.) The total for the first 5 is 23/61, for 38% of the time advancing.
 
#459      
grue2
sacraig said:
KJ is like to be a first round one and done. I think that qualifies as generational in the same sense as multi-year Ayo, Kofi, and TSJ for us at this point. You could make the case for Ivisic and Riley as well.

Talent isn't the issue, aside from a few players who really haven't been good this year. Usage and game plan are the issues. Coaching is the issue.
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I don't think that word means what you think it means.

There are a lot of 1 and done's every year. Generational means once a generation. i.e. Something you see about every 20 years. If someone isn't in the discussion for GOAT, they are probably not a generational player.
 
#460      
bluemountain
ChiefGritty said:
Just for fun

Jay Wright made his first Final Four in year 8 at Villanova
Tony Bennett made his first Final Four in year 10 at Virginia
Bo Ryan made his first Final Four in year 13 at Wisconsin
Scott Drew made his first Final Four in year 18 at Baylor
Matt Painter made his first Final Four in year 19 at Purdue
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Anything can happen, right - I mean Dale Brown made it to the FF once. But I defy you to watch a BU team play, then watch tape of a Matt Painter or Tony Bennett or Bo Ryan team play, and tell me Brad is in the same league as these guys.

He's been here 8 years now, we know what he is. He will bring in enough talent to win more games than he loses in a great basketball conference. His teams will generally play hard and rebound well. We will have an offense that is simple to defend and a defense that can be torn apart by a patient offense. He will struggle to make in game adjustments and with clock management. He isn't Ron Zook, but in terms of coaching ability he isn't far from John Groce.

Over the past 5 years we have benefited greatly from UM, OSU and IU having bad coaches, UW suffering from a lack of talent and Izzo being off his game (until this year). Those either have reversed or are in the process of reversing themselves, so going forward we won't have the same level of success with the same quality of coaching we have seen from Brad.

I think he has earned another year to right the ship, but if he doesn't Josh should pull the plug quickly
 
#465      
illinitiger
PepeSilvia said:
I think this is the correct take. You make changes to staff and get actual assistant coaches but you don't move on from Brad unless he desperately wants out or you know you have a proven better option in place on a handshake deal.

The simple truth is that there isn't many clear upgrades available and Brad is still a better coach than a lot programs which is why he keeps getting other schools sniffing around.
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Agreed that Brad is better than most alternatives. Just wish he would fill ACs to complement his strength as a "CEO coach" better.

Don't know what happened with Chester and TA but I see that AC turnover in offseason as "coming home to roost" a bit.
 
#472      
EyeoftheIllini
grue2 said:
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

There are a lot of 1 and done's every year. Generational means once a generation. i.e. Something you see about every 20 years. If someone isn't in the discussion for GOAT, they are probably not a generational player.
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Generational talent is one of the most over used phrases in sports. Also up there is “instant classic.” I think it is a byproduct of all these sports talk shows and social media. Things just can’t just be good or great. Nope, have to be generational or classic or future Hall of Famer (after one season).

Hot take is another phrase way over used. Couple weeks ago I was in the car listening to Cleveland sports radio. They were discussing Travis Hunter and whether he would play both ways. One of the hosts said something like, “my hot take is I hope he does cuz I think it would be cool.” That is not a hot take nor is it in any way insightful.
 
#474      
Kilgore Trout
For me, the whole nepotism problem, the seeming inability of the offense or the defense to make in game adaptations, the loss of good assistant coaches, and so many players to the portal, has taken me from firmly believing Underwood is an excellent top level coach; to the firmly wondering if he is the best the Illini can get.
 
#475      
the juiceman cometh
bluemountain said:
I didn't say anything about recruiting. Hard to imagine anyone could have watched the team this year and think BU is better at player development, game prep and game day management than Groce.
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Did they do away with recruiting? Is that not part of coaching basketball in college anymore?

As for game prep/management, is there a specific game you can point to from his time in Illinois highlighting Groce' skill in this area? Because looking at the W/L record, the math ain't mathing on that claim.

And who are Groce's big player development successes? What NBA players did he develop? How many All-Americans?
 
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