Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

#276      
It's difficult to overstate how conflicted the alums I meet are about those two titles, the concurrent scandals, and the inability/incompetence of Warde Manuel regarding hanging on to Harbaugh and May. For example, the Sherrone Moore debacle, and many others as egregious but less publicized, in which not even the least due diligence was done during the hiring phase about reputational risks. Some of them fall back on "Harbaugh didn't know because he's autistic/a genius/naive." lol

My colleague, however, sees clearly. He cherishes the titles and also expresses embarrassment at the scandals and inability to keep top coaches (they're now into garment-rending recriminations over Beilein bolting to the Cavs a decade ago.) Oh, and the clown show that the university presidency has become. He noted yesterday when we spoke about this that they're sinking into Spartan territory in this area, and as we all know there's no more horrifying thought to a Michigan Man(TM) than that.

But yeah: Leaders and Best. Always and forever.

I'm glad I saw us kick the snot out them in Crisler last year. (The fans streaming for the exits with ~10 mins remaining when our lead stretched to 15 was as delicious a moment of schadenfreude as I've enjoyed.) I don't need to go back there again anytime soon.
This is where it feels like Michigan has some fan out there making wishes on an old monkey paw, asking for championships, only for the curse to come due during and immediately after each one (I know administrative incompetence is probably the curse itself, but more fun to think about this way).

In 2023, Michigan put together its best football team in a long time, only for the Connor Stalions sign-stealing scandal to become the overriding storyline. They still won the championship despite the controversy, prior and subsequent coaching suspensions, and all the noise around the program. Then Harbaugh left, the program was handed to Sherrone Moore, which obviously spiraled further.

Their basketball team put together a top-tier roster (by slithering around, tampering, and doing whatever else goes on behind the scenes) to win a championship and then have their coach leave for the NBA at the eleventh hour right before the season starts, leaving the entire roster in question.

Seems like a curse to me. As an Illini fan, it is a lot more enjoyable (and sustainable) winning the right way.
 
#277      
It's difficult to overstate how conflicted the alums I meet are about those two titles, the concurrent scandals, and the inability/incompetence of Warde Manuel regarding hanging on to Harbaugh and May. For example, the Sherrone Moore debacle, and many others as egregious but less publicized, in which not even the least due diligence was done during the hiring phase about reputational risks. Some of them fall back on "Harbaugh didn't know because he's autistic/a genius/naive." lol

My colleague, however, sees clearly. He cherishes the titles and also expresses embarrassment at the scandals and inability to keep top coaches (they're now into garment-rending recriminations over Beilein bolting to the Cavs a decade ago.) Oh, and the clown show that the university presidency has become. He noted yesterday when we spoke about this that they're sinking into Spartan territory in this area, and as we all know there's no more horrifying thought to a Michigan Man(TM) than that.
I would respect "we win you lose cry more" 10000X more than all the desperation to be considered honorable and the gold standard stuff.

It all ultimately comes back to Woody and Bo, who were both the exact same person, absolute scoundrels who would cut any corner to get and stay on top. Ohio State understands and embraces this, which for as horrible and destructive as they are for the conference at least makes them immeasurably less annoying than the Michigan Man people.
 
#278      
It's difficult to overstate how conflicted the alums I meet are about those two titles, the concurrent scandals, and the inability/incompetence of Warde Manuel regarding hanging on to Harbaugh and May. For example, the Sherrone Moore debacle, and many others as egregious but less publicized, in which not even the least due diligence was done during the hiring phase about reputational risks. Some of them fall back on "Harbaugh didn't know because he's autistic/a genius/naive." lol

My colleague, however, sees clearly. He cherishes the titles and also expresses embarrassment at the scandals and inability to keep top coaches (they're now into garment-rending recriminations over Beilein bolting to the Cavs a decade ago.) Oh, and the clown show that the university presidency has become. He noted yesterday when we spoke about this that they're sinking into Spartan territory in this area, and as we all know there's no more horrifying thought to a Michigan Man(TM) than that.

But yeah: Leaders and Best. Always and forever.

I'm glad I saw us kick the snot out them in Crisler last year. (The fans streaming for the exits with ~10 mins remaining when our lead stretched to 15 was as delicious a moment of schadenfreude as I've enjoyed.) I don't need to go back there again anytime soon.
Fascinating.

As a thought exercise, I’m curious to what our board’s feedback would be to the, following question:

* In the past 15 years, who has had the more inept, dysfunctional leadership: Michigan or Michigan State?
 
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#279      
This is where it feels like Michigan has some fan out there making wishes on an old monkey paw, asking for championships, only for the curse to come due during and immediately after each one (I know administrative incompetence is probably the curse itself, but more fun to think about this way).

In 2023, Michigan put together its best football team in a long time, only for the Connor Stalions sign-stealing scandal to become the overriding storyline. They still won the championship despite the controversy, prior and subsequent coaching suspensions, and all the noise around the program. Then Harbaugh left, the program was handed to Sherrone Moore, which obviously spiraled further.

Their basketball team put together a top-tier roster (by slithering around, tampering, and doing whatever else goes on behind the scenes) to win a championship and then have their coach leave for the NBA at the eleventh hour right before the season starts, leaving the entire roster in question.

Seems like a curse to me. As an Illini fan, it is a lot more enjoyable (and sustainable) winning the right way.
I like this… the University of Michigan Monkey Paws. 😂
 
#280      
Tang back at Baylor.


Edit: This might be old news. If so, forgive me I've had a long day. Lol
 
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#281      
This is where it feels like Michigan has some fan out there making wishes on an old monkey paw, asking for championships, only for the curse to come due during and immediately after each one (I know administrative incompetence is probably the curse itself, but more fun to think about this way).

In 2023, Michigan put together its best football team in a long time, only for the Connor Stalions sign-stealing scandal to become the overriding storyline. They still won the championship despite the controversy, prior and subsequent coaching suspensions, and all the noise around the program. Then Harbaugh left, the program was handed to Sherrone Moore, which obviously spiraled further.

Their basketball team put together a top-tier roster (by slithering around, tampering, and doing whatever else goes on behind the scenes) to win a championship and then have their coach leave for the NBA at the eleventh hour right before the season starts, leaving the entire roster in question.

Seems like a curse to me. As an Illini fan, it is a lot more enjoyable (and sustainable) winning the right way.
Heckuva curse. Two championships.
 
#284      
Fascinating.

As a thought exercise, I’m curious to what our board’s feedback would be to the, following question:

* In the past 15 years, who has had the more inept, dysfunctional leadership: Michigan or Michigan State?
If your goal is to win championships, not have a horrifying Sandusky-esque gymnastics trainer and not post Hitler on your stadium video board...it's got to be UM, yeah?

Moore and Tucker are pretty break even. But MSU has been laughably foul for a bit now and they just hired Fitzy
 
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#285      
If your goal is to win championships, not have a horrifying Sandusky-esque gymnastics trainer and not post Hitler on your stadium video board...it's got to be UM, yeah?

Moore and Tucker are pretty break even. But MSU has been laughably foul for a bit now and they just hired Fitzy
I learned something here. I missed the memo on the Hitler on the video board. I had to look that up.

Yeah it would be pretty hard to disagree with that take. The Lou Anna Simon-regime is enough right there to put them over the top. (At least the stuff that’s public knowledge.)
 
#286      
I learned something here. I missed the memo on the Hitler on the video board. I had to look that up.

Yeah it would be pretty hard to disagree with that take. The Lou Anna Simon-regime is enough right there to put them over the top. (At least the stuff that’s public knowledge.)
I think you mean Michigan Women’s Hall of Fame member Lou Anna Simon.

Both schools sports culture say something about the state for sure..
 
#287      
If your goal is to win championships, not have a horrifying Sandusky-esque gymnastics trainer and not post Hitler on your stadium video board...it's got to be UM, yeah?

Moore and Tucker are pretty break even. But MSU has been laughably foul for a bit now and they just hired Fitzy
I’m still surprised they hired Firzy after the Mel Tucker sexual escapades. Seems like that would qualify as a “lesson not learned.”
 
#288      
It’s so wild how different the overall gauge of actual reality is when talking sports with people in person than online.

It’s either these are all entirely different people, or else it’s just these same people who are just more reasonable in an offline discussion where there’s no anonymity and some level of accountability versus when they get online and are maybe a lot more “out there” with their various takes.
Truer words...

And applicable to all topics involving anonymous online interaction, not only those involving sports.
 
#289      
I would respect "we win you lose cry more" 10000X more than all the desperation to be considered honorable and the gold standard stuff.

It all ultimately comes back to Woody and Bo, who were both the exact same person, absolute scoundrels who would cut any corner to get and stay on top. Ohio State understands and embraces this, which for as horrible and destructive as they are for the conference at least makes them immeasurably less annoying than the Michigan Man people.
Were they different from any other coaches successful to such a substantial degree? What made Barry Switzer at Oklahoma different from, say, Bob Devaney and Tom Osborne at Nebraska? The cultural milieu of those two states and Switzer's necessity to mine the TX/AR/LA markets for recruits? The milieu of the Midwest and Big Ten tempered the baser impulses of Woody and Bo, in my view, that might have been loosed were they coaching in the SEC or SWC.

I actually grew up around Woody Hayes in the '70s. I agree with you that he and Bo were indistinguishable in fundamental character (and Bo cut his teeth coaching under Woody, which made the 10-Year War of '69-'78 especially fierce.) However, I view that character as generally strong and productive. Coach Hayes was certainly irascible and utterly intolerant of losing, which led to his spectacular demise. But he wasn't nuts like (Ohio State basketball alum) Bobby Knight, to whom he was a close mentor. He was a professor of military history during the winter quarter at OSU, a deeply serious man, he truly loved and cared for his players while pushing them to the absolute edge of their tolerance for pain in pursuit of performance, and (like Knight, Bo, and nearly every other HoF coach) flawed and complicated while brilliant. "Scoundrel" is a bit much, IMO.

One anecdote about Woody of which I was unaware until I read John Feinstein's (RIP) Season on the Brink about the 1984-85 IU basketball campaign, is that when IU played in Columbus that season, Knight asked Woody to speak to the the team beforehand. Woody obliged. Wheelchair-bound, and at the end of his life (he died in early '87 during my junior year) he gave an impassioned speech about commitment and integrity. "Do as I say, not as I do"? I don't believe so.

He was also wry and funny. At the zenith of his powers, the team having won the '68 Natty and enjoyed a fabulous run, a reporter asked him if the football program tail was wagging the academic university dog. "Of course not," Woody answered, "Ohio State is a university of which the football team can be justifiably proud." I read that quip 40 years ago and still chuckle when I think about it.

As for Bo, I respect what he accomplished. Like Paterno, he turned a blind eye to dragons in the program with which he was (as a man of his generation) uncomfortable, and of which he was avoidant. Coincidentally, a former colleague's husband grew up on the same block as Paterno in State College. He knew JoePa as a veritable grandparent and a wonderful man. When the Sandusky revelations surfaced it shook him to his core for several years. These guys work at the absolute edge of the envelope to generate the successes they do. Inevitably, there's a lot of collateral damage.

I'll end this TL;DR essay by giving thanks for what we have in BB.
 
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#290      
Were they different from any other coaches successful to such a substantial degree? What made Barry Switzer at Oklahoma different from, say, Bob Devaney and Tom Osborne at Nebraska? The cultural milieu of those two states and Switzer's necessity to mine the TX/AR/LA markets for recruits? The milieu of the Midwest and Big Ten tempered the baser impulses of Woody and Bo, in my view, that might have been loosed were they coaching in the SEC or SWC.

I actually grew up around Woody Hayes in the '70s. I agree with you that he and Bo were indistinguishable in fundamental character (and Bo cut his teeth coaching under Woody, which made the 10-Year War of '69-'78 especially fierce.) However, I view that character as generally strong and productive. Coach Hayes was certainly irascible and utterly intolerant of losing, which led to his spectacular demise. But he wasn't nuts like (Ohio State basketball alum) Bobby Knight, to whom he was a close mentor. He was a professor of military history during the winter quarter at OSU, a deeply serious man, he truly loved and cared for his players while pushing them to the absolute edge of their tolerance for pain in pursuit of performance, and (like Knight, Bo, and nearly every other HoF coach) flawed and complicated while brilliant. "Scoundrel" is a bit much, IMO.

One anecdote about Woody of which I was unaware until I read John Feinstein's (RIP) Season on the Brink about the 1984-85 IU basketball campaign, is that when IU played in Columbus that season, Knight asked Woody to speak to the the team beforehand. Woody obliged. Wheelchair-bound, and at the end of his life (he died in early '87 during my junior year) he gave an impassioned speech about commitment and integrity. "Do as I say, not as I do"? I don't believe so.

He was also wry and funny. At the zenith of his powers, the team having won the '68 Natty and enjoyed a fabulous run, a reporter asked him if the football program tail was wagging the academic university dog. "Of course not," Woody answered, "Ohio State is a university of which the football team can be justifiably proud." I read that quip 40 years ago and still chuckle when I think about it.

As for Bo, I respect what he accomplished. Like Paterno, he turned a blind eye to dragons in the program with which he was (as a man of his generation) uncomfortable, and of which he was avoidant. Coincidentally, a former colleague's husband grew up on the same block as Paterno in State College. He knew JoePa as a veritable grandparent and a wonderful man. When the Sandusky revelations surfaced it shook him to his core for several years. These guys work at the absolute edge of the envelope to generate the successes they do. Inevitably, there's a lot of collateral damage.

I'll end this TL;DR essay by giving thanks for what we have in BB.
Yes - people tend to look at Bo and Woody as being the same; they weren't. In my observation, Woody was an old school hard !!!, but had a great deal of integrity. He was starting to slip toward the end of his tenure, which led to some unfortunate incidents.

Bo was a Grade A jerk without much in the way of redeeming qualities, although I do respect what he accomplished as a coach
 
#291      
Fascinating.

As a thought exercise, I’m curious to what our board’s feedback would be to the, following question:

* In the past 15 years, who has had the more inept, dysfunctional leadership: Michigan or Michigan State?
MSU and it's not close, especially outside the coaching ranks. The Nasser scandal was the biggest thing since Sandusky, and there have been 6 presidents in six years in East Lansing.

Sure Manuel could not retain his coaches, but he did get them initially, and two championships are two championships.
 
#292      
I would respect "we win you lose cry more" 10000X more than all the desperation to be considered honorable and the gold standard stuff.
This applies to the Texas Tech fiasco as well. Had they just said, “Sorsby is here to play quarterback” instead of all the rationalization they tried to spin, in a weird way I probably would have just shrugged and moved on.
 
#294      
MSU and it's not close, especially outside the coaching ranks. The Nasser scandal was the biggest thing since Sandusky, and there have been 6 presidents in six years in East Lansing.

Sure Manuel could not retain his coaches, but he did get them initially, and two championships are two championships.
Well yeah no doubt. It’s certainly the biggest one since Sandusky that people widely talk about/know about.


But yeah…Abuse is abuse. Nothing trumps that agreed. I would push back a little…just to say there’s more dysfunction going on at Michigan than just not being able to hang on to coaches…
 
#295      
Well yeah no doubt. It’s certainly the biggest one since Sandusky that people widely talk about/know about.


But yeah…Abuse is abuse. Nothing trumps that agreed. I would push back a little…just to say there’s more dysfunction going on at Michigan than just not being able to hang on to coaches…
Agree to put that unpleasant topic aside.

Back to your original question, which was simply who has more dysfunctional leadership, I don't know how you beat six presidents in about as many years. They offered the last guy an extra $1M / year (approx doubling his salary) to stay and he said no thanks.

1782413985485.png


Now if we'd rather switch the discussion to just bashing Michigan, I am more than happy to do so. :)
 
#296      
Agree to put that unpleasant topic aside.

Back to your original question, which was simply who has more dysfunctional leadership, I don't know how you beat six presidents in about as many years. They offered the last guy an extra $1M / year (approx doubling his salary) to stay and he said no thanks.

View attachment 50704

Now if we'd rather switch the discussion to just bashing Michigan, I am more than happy to do so. :)
Yeah…I shouldn’t have posed the question like that. Agreed.👍
 
#297      
Were they different from any other coaches successful to such a substantial degree? What made Barry Switzer at Oklahoma different from, say, Bob Devaney and Tom Osborne at Nebraska? The cultural milieu of those two states and Switzer's necessity to mine the TX/AR/LA markets for recruits? The milieu of the Midwest and Big Ten tempered the baser impulses of Woody and Bo, in my view, that might have been loosed were they coaching in the SEC or SWC.

I actually grew up around Woody Hayes in the '70s. I agree with you that he and Bo were indistinguishable in fundamental character (and Bo cut his teeth coaching under Woody, which made the 10-Year War of '69-'78 especially fierce.) However, I view that character as generally strong and productive. Coach Hayes was certainly irascible and utterly intolerant of losing, which led to his spectacular demise. But he wasn't nuts like (Ohio State basketball alum) Bobby Knight, to whom he was a close mentor. He was a professor of military history during the winter quarter at OSU, a deeply serious man, he truly loved and cared for his players while pushing them to the absolute edge of their tolerance for pain in pursuit of performance, and (like Knight, Bo, and nearly every other HoF coach) flawed and complicated while brilliant. "Scoundrel" is a bit much, IMO.

One anecdote about Woody of which I was unaware until I read John Feinstein's (RIP) Season on the Brink about the 1984-85 IU basketball campaign, is that when IU played in Columbus that season, Knight asked Woody to speak to the the team beforehand. Woody obliged. Wheelchair-bound, and at the end of his life (he died in early '87 during my junior year) he gave an impassioned speech about commitment and integrity. "Do as I say, not as I do"? I don't believe so.

He was also wry and funny. At the zenith of his powers, the team having won the '68 Natty and enjoyed a fabulous run, a reporter asked him if the football program tail was wagging the academic university dog. "Of course not," Woody answered, "Ohio State is a university of which the football team can be justifiably proud." I read that quip 40 years ago and still chuckle when I think about it.

As for Bo, I respect what he accomplished. Like Paterno, he turned a blind eye to dragons in the program with which he was (as a man of his generation) uncomfortable, and of which he was avoidant. Coincidentally, a former colleague's husband grew up on the same block as Paterno in State College. He knew JoePa as a veritable grandparent and a wonderful man. When the Sandusky revelations surfaced it shook him to his core for several years. These guys work at the absolute edge of the envelope to generate the successes they do. Inevitably, there's a lot of collateral damage.

I'll end this TL;DR essay by giving thanks for what we have in BB.
This BBC documentary on Woody Hayes, presumably filmed in 1977 ("Star Wars" is playing at the movies), offers a lot of insight on him from the perspective of people who have no prior knowledge of college football. I think the wryness shows through. It leads up to OSU's opener (against a pre-bigtime Miami Hurricane team).

That recalls a theory about what led to the Clemson incident in a book I once read about him. The author notes that Woody was diabetic and over his last few years at OSU fell into a pattern where he'd get healthy and follow doctor's orders through the offseason, start the season well, but as the pressure increased during the season, he'd fall back into old patterns and the wild outbursts would increase, and it was one of these diabetic fits that led him to hit Charlie Bauman.

 
#298      
This BBC documentary on Woody Hayes, presumably filmed in 1977 ("Star Wars" is playing at the movies), offers a lot of insight on him from the perspective of people who have no prior knowledge of college football. I think the wryness shows through. It leads up to OSU's opener (against a pre-bigtime Miami Hurricane team).

That recalls a theory about what led to the Clemson incident in a book I once read about him. The author notes that Woody was diabetic and over his last few years at OSU fell into a pattern where he'd get healthy and follow doctor's orders through the offseason, start the season well, but as the pressure increased during the season, he'd fall back into old patterns and the wild outbursts would increase, and it was one of these diabetic fits that led him to hit Charlie Bauman.

Seems like a really convoluted way of avoiding calling the man a jerk...there's plenty of folks that have diabetic incidents in high stress roles that don't result in assault..
 
#299      
This BBC documentary on Woody Hayes, presumably filmed in 1977 ("Star Wars" is playing at the movies), offers a lot of insight on him from the perspective of people who have no prior knowledge of college football. I think the wryness shows through. It leads up to OSU's opener (against a pre-bigtime Miami Hurricane team).

That recalls a theory about what led to the Clemson incident in a book I once read about him. The author notes that Woody was diabetic and over his last few years at OSU fell into a pattern where he'd get healthy and follow doctor's orders through the offseason, start the season well, but as the pressure increased during the season, he'd fall back into old patterns and the wild outbursts would increase, and it was one of these diabetic fits that led him to hit Charlie Bauman.

Thanks. I've never seen that doc and will tuck into it this summer. Yes, the diabetic hypothesis seemed to explain a lot. He was also infamous for destroying yard markers (back in the quaint days when such things existed):

That Time Woody Hayes Shredded Michigan Stadium’s Down Markers in 1971

Having cooled down, he subsequently offered to pay for the markers he destroyed. Michigan's AD refused. Those were the days.

I was at that '77 game v. Miami. OSU was a Top 10 team that season but barely won, which even at the age of 11 I could tell was truly weird given that Miami was unheard of and not particularly good. The '78 team was meh and not that far above 0.500 (like the '71 team that precipitated his tantrum at Michigan). The really sad thing about Woody's meltdown at the end of the Gator Bowl is that he had put in place a team (and incoming recruiting class) that nearly won the NC the following season under Earle Bruce. If not for Charles' White's performance in the 1980 Rose Bowl, which OSU lost to USC by 1, they'd have finished 12-0.
 
#300      
Seems like a really convoluted way of avoiding calling the man a jerk...there's plenty of folks that have diabetic incidents in high stress roles that don't result in assault..
Take a look at the video I embedded in the previous post. It's the immortal Bob Ufer, Michigan's radio man, doing the play-by-play leading up to led to Woody destroying those yard markers. Best explanation I've ever heard of the head space these coaches inhabit, and I'd never seen that video until a minute ago:

That Time Woody Hayes Shredded Michigan Stadium’s Down Markers in 1971

0:45 in the video:

 
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