I think you mean Michigan Women’s Hall of Fame member Lou Anna Simon.
Both schools sports culture say something about the state for sure..
Coaching Carousel (Basketball)
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Both schools sports culture say something about the state for sure..
RabidDawgClassic
- Los Angeles, CA
I’m still surprised they hired Firzy after the Mel Tucker sexual escapades. Seems like that would qualify as a “lesson not learned.”
I'm going to be completely honest. I just want to see Illinois win a championship.
If they won a basketball and football national championship in a 3 year span I would lose my mind.
I would absolutely not care if both coaches bolted right after and it came out that there was a minor sign stealing scandal or tampering allegations.
OrangeBlue98
Iowa is not in a great spot right now (LvilleILL1)
- Des Moines, IA
Two words-Larry Nasser.
Plus, a Google search of Michigan State sexual assault shows a pretty lengthy list of sexual assault issues that Izzo did a very good job of not letting get too far into the investigation process.
I think it’s safe to say MSU isn’t worried about some hazing. That’s pretty much child’s play on the MSU spectrum of perceived trouble.
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
Truer words...
And applicable to all topics involving anonymous online interaction, not only those involving sports.
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
Were they different from any other coaches successful to such a substantial degree? What made Barry Switzer at Oklahoma different from, say, Bob Devaney and Tom Osborne at Nebraska? The cultural milieu of those two states and Switzer's necessity to mine the TX/AR/LA markets for recruits? The milieu of the Midwest and Big Ten tempered the baser impulses of Woody and Bo, in my view, that might have been loosed were they coaching in the SEC or SWC.
I actually grew up around Woody Hayes in the '70s. I agree with you that he and Bo were indistinguishable in fundamental character (and Bo cut his teeth coaching under Woody, which made the 10-Year War of '69-'78 especially fierce.) However, I view that character as generally strong and productive. Coach Hayes was certainly irascible and utterly intolerant of losing, which led to his spectacular demise. But he wasn't nuts like (Ohio State basketball alum) Bobby Knight, to whom he was a close mentor. He was a professor of military history during the winter quarter at OSU, a deeply serious man, he truly loved and cared for his players while pushing them to the absolute edge of their tolerance for pain in pursuit of performance, and (like Knight, Bo, and nearly every other HoF coach) flawed and complicated while brilliant. "Scoundrel" is a bit much, IMO.
One anecdote about Woody of which I was unaware until I read John Feinstein's (RIP) Season on the Brink about the 1984-85 IU basketball campaign, is that when IU played in Columbus that season, Knight asked Woody to speak to the the team beforehand. Woody obliged. Wheelchair-bound, and at the end of his life (he died in early '87 during my junior year) he gave an impassioned speech about commitment and integrity. "Do as I say, not as I do"? I don't believe so.
He was also wry and funny. At the zenith of his powers, the team having won the '68 Natty and enjoyed a fabulous run, a reporter asked him if the football program tail was wagging the academic university dog. "Of course not," Woody answered, "Ohio State is a university of which the football team can be justifiably proud." I read that quip 40 years ago and still chuckle when I think about it.
As for Bo, I respect what he accomplished. Like Paterno, he turned a blind eye to dragons in the program with which he was (as a man of his generation) uncomfortable, and of which he was avoidant. Coincidentally, a former colleague's husband grew up on the same block as Paterno in State College. He knew JoePa as a veritable grandparent and a wonderful man. When the Sandusky revelations surfaced it shook him to his core for several years. These guys work at the absolute edge of the envelope to generate the successes they do. Inevitably, there's a lot of collateral damage.
I'll end this TL;DR essay by giving thanks for what we have in BB.
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Yes - people tend to look at Bo and Woody as being the same; they weren't. In my observation, Woody was an old school hard !!!, but had a great deal of integrity. He was starting to slip toward the end of his tenure, which led to some unfortunate incidents.
Bo was a Grade A jerk without much in the way of redeeming qualities, although I do respect what he accomplished as a coach
Battle89
- Cary-Grove, the better Trojan team
MSU and it's not close, especially outside the coaching ranks. The Nasser scandal was the biggest thing since Sandusky, and there have been 6 presidents in six years in East Lansing.
Sure Manuel could not retain his coaches, but he did get them initially, and two championships are two championships.
OrangeBlue98
Iowa is not in a great spot right now (LvilleILL1)
- Des Moines, IA
This applies to the Texas Tech fiasco as well. Had they just said, “Sorsby is here to play quarterback” instead of all the rationalization they tried to spin, in a weird way I probably would have just shrugged and moved on.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Well yeah no doubt. It’s certainly the biggest one since Sandusky that people widely talk about/know about.
But yeah…Abuse is abuse. Nothing trumps that agreed. I would push back a little…just to say there’s more dysfunction going on at Michigan than just not being able to hang on to coaches…
Battle89
- Cary-Grove, the better Trojan team
Agree to put that unpleasant topic aside.
Back to your original question, which was simply who has more dysfunctional leadership, I don't know how you beat six presidents in about as many years. They offered the last guy an extra $1M / year (approx doubling his salary) to stay and he said no thanks.
Now if we'd rather switch the discussion to just bashing Michigan, I am more than happy to do so.
Yeah…I shouldn’t have posed the question like that. Agreed.Agree to put that unpleasant topic aside.
Back to your original question, which was simply who has more dysfunctional leadership, I don't know how you beat six presidents in about as many years. They offered the last guy an extra $1M / year (approx doubling his salary) to stay and he said no thanks.
View attachment 50704
Now if we'd rather switch the discussion to just bashing Michigan, I am more than happy to do so.
This BBC documentary on Woody Hayes, presumably filmed in 1977 ("Star Wars" is playing at the movies), offers a lot of insight on him from the perspective of people who have no prior knowledge of college football. I think the wryness shows through. It leads up to OSU's opener (against a pre-bigtime Miami Hurricane team).
That recalls a theory about what led to the Clemson incident in a book I once read about him. The author notes that Woody was diabetic and over his last few years at OSU fell into a pattern where he'd get healthy and follow doctor's orders through the offseason, start the season well, but as the pressure increased during the season, he'd fall back into old patterns and the wild outbursts would increase, and it was one of these diabetic fits that led him to hit Charlie Bauman.
Seems like a really convoluted way of avoiding calling the man a jerk...there's plenty of folks that have diabetic incidents in high stress roles that don't result in assault..
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
Thanks. I've never seen that doc and will tuck into it this summer. Yes, the diabetic hypothesis seemed to explain a lot. He was also infamous for destroying yard markers (back in the quaint days when such things existed):
That Time Woody Hayes Shredded Michigan Stadium’s Down Markers in 1971
Having cooled down, he subsequently offered to pay for the markers he destroyed. Michigan's AD refused. Those were the days.
I was at that '77 game v. Miami. OSU was a Top 10 team that season but barely won, which even at the age of 11 I could tell was truly weird given that Miami was unheard of and not particularly good. The '78 team was meh and not that far above 0.500 (like the '71 team that precipitated his tantrum at Michigan). The really sad thing about Woody's meltdown at the end of the Gator Bowl is that he had put in place a team (and incoming recruiting class) that nearly won the NC the following season under Earle Bruce. If not for Charles' White's performance in the 1980 Rose Bowl, which OSU lost to USC by 1, they'd have finished 12-0.
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
Take a look at the video I embedded in the previous post. It's the immortal Bob Ufer, Michigan's radio man, doing the play-by-play leading up to led to Woody destroying those yard markers. Best explanation I've ever heard of the head space these coaches inhabit, and I'd never seen that video until a minute ago:
That Time Woody Hayes Shredded Michigan Stadium’s Down Markers in 1971
0:45 in the video:
The media cheering on bad behavior by coaches isn't new... For instance, Hayes' violent tantrums dated 20+ years back by the time he punched an opposing player. It wasn't winning that made him a jerk.
Hayes is a fossil that benefitted from having a talent advantage in 99% of his games and absolute control of his free labor. Being a jerk while doing it was just who he was.
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
Human nature doesn't change, only the environment that channels it does. Prominent imperfection is the hallmark of great figures, of which Hayes is indisputably one.
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That's silly. "Don't hit people around you" was a thing in the 70s too. He was fired for it, in the 70s.
The idea that it was 'just the times' ignores that championship coaches like Devaney, Royal, McCay, Devine, & Parseghian all won without abusing reporters, refs and players. 55 years later they look just fine.
Fun fact that the referee Hayes was screaming at and who signaled the unsportsmanlike conduct, was Jerry Markbreit. He went on to be the most-recognized NFL referee of the 1980s and 90s.
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
I don't disagree and didn't claim otherwise. But it's entirely irrelevant to my point.
Come on man, you can see from what I quoted vs what you just shared, you pretty heavily edited what you said after and are doing the gaslighting.
Your new point, claiming a football coach that couldn't help from assaulting people is "prominent imperfection", is just putting lipstick on a pig.
Don't kid yourself, none of the coaches you mention were as demonstrative as Woody on the sidelines. But they were definitely as defiant with referees, just not as boisterous. As for Woody being abusive of his players or assistants, that's not way most of his former players tell the story. You might want to check out what Brian Baschnagel had to say about Hayes when he was with the Bears. The press ? Well there are a number of NCAA coaches that are dismissive of the press. Abusive? Bobby Knight appears to be the only coach that I can remember being directly abusive to reporters.
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