But let's say the clock was in sync, and the actual time was something like 8.57 seconds.
That would make sense why the duration wasn't a full second. Obviously on the scoreboard they're not gonna show it in tenths.
Michigan 13, Western Michigan 12
That would make sense why the duration wasn't a full second. Obviously on the scoreboard they're not gonna show it in tenths.
B1G in full on back pedal mode......and this is the best they came up with?
sbillini
- st petersburg, fl
My understanding is it should’ve been exactly 9.00 seconds given it was a spiked ball and the referees instructed the clock operator to set it at 9seconds. Either the clock operator put something like 8.57
seceonds (or even 8.1 seconds which would show as 9 on the clock) or nbc did.
Given Michigan had a full 9 seconds and the play didn’t take a full 9 seconds to run (both are verifiable), then Michigan should’ve gotten another play. But if the stadium clock operator set the clock incorrectly, then there’s a bigger issue here and likely WMU should’ve won the game.
Joel Goodson
- it's all ball bearings, nowadays
I don't think he's talking about LSU:
I find it hard to believe that there are two separate clocks (timing down independently), and/or that they are not (automatically/always) synched, especially in a case where a ref says to put 9 seconds on the clock at the end. In other words, if both the scoreboard clock and the ref's clock show 8 seconds, and the refs then say to adjusted them to 9, is there any conceivable way they are not both at exactly 9 seconds?? Plus, given there is no decimal on any of the clocks, I don't think the scorekeeper could put 8.3 seconds on the clock, especially when told to put 9 on it, let alone putting 9.0 on one and 8.3 on the other. (The video by the HS scorekeeper explaining the types of clocks, etc, was interesting, and seems to refute the other kid's video purporting one of the clocks showing 9 seconds, but only really having 8.3 on it, based on how fast the clock went from 9 to 8 when the ball was snapped).
As a separate possibility to address, could the ref's clock be feeding the scoreboard clock? If so, the scoreboard clock would go to 0 either at the same time or maybe even a fraction of a second after the ref's clock went to 0, depending on if there are any lags between the two.
If someone finds a pic/video where the two clocks are shown at the same time, and the times are different, then that's another matter. (Which should be made impossible to ever happen).
I am also curious how the B1G video has two separate windows, side by side, one for the video of the play, and one separate and next to it, showing a clock. Is this actually what a ref would see on video review, or was this something put together after the fact with something like Photoshop?
EDIT: One of the commentators said a spike must take a minimum of 2 seconds, so if the scorekeepers clock shows fractional seconds, and we saw the start of the spike play to be at 11 seconds, but it was actually 10.57 seconds, then the scorekeeper should adjust the time to 8.57 seconds, which we would see as 9 flat. But per the kid who was a scorekeeper, it doesn't seem the UM clocks had fractional capabilities.
As a separate possibility to address, could the ref's clock be feeding the scoreboard clock? If so, the scoreboard clock would go to 0 either at the same time or maybe even a fraction of a second after the ref's clock went to 0, depending on if there are any lags between the two.
If someone finds a pic/video where the two clocks are shown at the same time, and the times are different, then that's another matter. (Which should be made impossible to ever happen).
I am also curious how the B1G video has two separate windows, side by side, one for the video of the play, and one separate and next to it, showing a clock. Is this actually what a ref would see on video review, or was this something put together after the fact with something like Photoshop?
EDIT: One of the commentators said a spike must take a minimum of 2 seconds, so if the scorekeepers clock shows fractional seconds, and we saw the start of the spike play to be at 11 seconds, but it was actually 10.57 seconds, then the scorekeeper should adjust the time to 8.57 seconds, which we would see as 9 flat. But per the kid who was a scorekeeper, it doesn't seem the UM clocks had fractional capabilities.
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hooraybeer
- Peoria, IL
it’s 2026, time to see the official fractional seconds left on TV
RabidDawgClassic
- Los Angeles, CA
This was my first suspicion, given the fact that the B1G reportedly released the audio of the decision. As a video editor, I could easily align what you’re hearing with video to make it appear as if it’s the same as what you’re seeing.
This is not to say I’m going all conspiratorial here… just pointing out that what the B1G released is not definitive proof.
sbillini
- st petersburg, fl
Let’s put some hypotheticals on top of what we know. If we agree that there should’ve been 9.00 seconds on the clock when the play began, AND nbc is correctly synced to the stadium (I still don’t think that’s been verified but let’s stay it is) AND the clock operator cannot do fractions of a second, then the only plausible explanation is the stadium clock operator started the clock BEFORE the play began (and hence the quick tick down from 9 to 8). I guess that’s possible but less likely. It would only disadvantage Michigan to do that and would be a huge issue for the integrity of the game if the clock somehow ticked before the play began. If I’m a clock operator, I’m making sure to try to not do that.
Further, if all the above is true, then it also has to be true that the replay officials clock is not properly synced to the stadium clock. Which comes with its own host of issues that should be addressed.
What will go a long way to verify all this is a shot where we can see the start of the play and the stadium clock in the same frame (no. Not the little box in the corner that nbc put in the replays because that creates another potentially source of sync issues). But the actually stadium clock starting to tick when the ball moves. That’ll determine if it was a stadium clock issue or and nbc one.
Further, if all the above is true, then it also has to be true that the replay officials clock is not properly synced to the stadium clock. Which comes with its own host of issues that should be addressed.
What will go a long way to verify all this is a shot where we can see the start of the play and the stadium clock in the same frame (no. Not the little box in the corner that nbc put in the replays because that creates another potentially source of sync issues). But the actually stadium clock starting to tick when the ball moves. That’ll determine if it was a stadium clock issue or and nbc one.
My daughter just explained.it to me. Michigan won in stoppage time.
Per my prior post:
EDIT: One of the commentators said a spike must take a minimum of 2 seconds, so if the scorekeepers clock shows fractional seconds, and we saw the start of the spike play to be at 11 seconds, but it was actually 10.57 seconds, then the scorekeeper should adjust the time to 8.57 seconds, which we would see as 9 flat. But per the kid who was a scorekeeper, it doesn't seem the UM clocks had fractional capabilities.
The kid said the UM scoreboard was a Mitsubishi (iirc) not the ones he used, so he was assuming they did not have fractional capabilities, because if they did, he said he would expect the scoreboard display to be able to show the fractional seconds, but the UM scoreboard has no fractional second display. All of which seem very reasonable, logical assumptions.
I've looked at the frames. The clock is consistently immediately ticking all game. This is a problem and not how football clocks are supposed to work.
For the play in question, the clock was manually reset to 0:09. All video I've used is 30 frames per second. Let's call the very first twitch of the ball frame 1. The clock visible on the field isn't visible at 0:08, but it ticks to 0:07 at frame 47, 0:06 at frame 77, and so forth. It must have ticked from 0:09 to 0:08 at frame 17. This is within a couple of frames of the broadcast clock.
If perfectly synced to the snap, the clock should not have ticked to 0:08 until frame 31. That's not taking human reaction time into account, which only increases the disparity.
Looking at half a dozen other snaps (for example, all of the ones at 15:00), the clock is taking 14-18 frames to tick its first second.
The clocks, amazingly, are wrong.
I don't yet know how this should be interpreted in the rulebook, but the B1G explanation is insufficient.
For the play in question, the clock was manually reset to 0:09. All video I've used is 30 frames per second. Let's call the very first twitch of the ball frame 1. The clock visible on the field isn't visible at 0:08, but it ticks to 0:07 at frame 47, 0:06 at frame 77, and so forth. It must have ticked from 0:09 to 0:08 at frame 17. This is within a couple of frames of the broadcast clock.
If perfectly synced to the snap, the clock should not have ticked to 0:08 until frame 31. That's not taking human reaction time into account, which only increases the disparity.
Looking at half a dozen other snaps (for example, all of the ones at 15:00), the clock is taking 14-18 frames to tick its first second.
The clocks, amazingly, are wrong.
I don't yet know how this should be interpreted in the rulebook, but the B1G explanation is insufficient.
lstewart53x3
- Scottsdale, Arizona
This clock here is the stadium clock:
It’s not the tv clock shown during the live play. This is the replay showing a camera on the stadium clock. So how in the world were the referees able to reference a stadium clock that still had 0:01 on it when the stadium clock on the replay shows 0:00? They’re the same clock!
It’s not the tv clock shown during the live play. This is the replay showing a camera on the stadium clock. So how in the world were the referees able to reference a stadium clock that still had 0:01 on it when the stadium clock on the replay shows 0:00? They’re the same clock!
Joel Goodson
- it's all ball bearings, nowadays
Zapruder film territory
12+ hours later and after the dust has settled, this is my read of the situation. Both the NBC production team and the B1G officials apparently synchronize the game footage with a fixed shot of the game clock on the scoreboard in the stadium. Somehow their respective syncs were different by about .5 to .75 of a second. One of the two was obviously wrong or maybe even both were, just slightly. But given the clock started at 9 seconds and the play took 8.5 seconds from snap to WMU player touching the ball, the likelihood does seem greater that it was in fact NBC’s split screen that displayed a .5 to .75 delay between the scoreboard clock insert in the lower corner and the game action in the main frame. If that’s true, then the B1G officials did not actually get it wrong and there really was one second left. Unfortunately these officials have such a terrible history of awful calls that a lot of people (like me) are skeptical of them by default and many will never be convinced it wasn’t a deliberate screw job.
JJE
- North Port, Florida
The Michigan win was absolute garbage. I’ve never seen a hundredth of the second used in a football game; ever. What an absolute embarrassment to rob WMU.
Worse yet, is the ridiculous precedent using the hundredth of a second. If we’re a betting man I would bet the hundredth ticker will make its way onto the broadcast in a next few months. The NCAA has the second best sports product only to the NFL and they’re finding every way possible to destroy it. Pathetic.
Worse yet, is the ridiculous precedent using the hundredth of a second. If we’re a betting man I would bet the hundredth ticker will make its way onto the broadcast in a next few months. The NCAA has the second best sports product only to the NFL and they’re finding every way possible to destroy it. Pathetic.
That is insane. I was kinda wondering if every single time the clock is stopped, it actually resets to the whole number that is being displayed. Like, if clock is stopped when it shows 25 seconds, that means the true remaining time is something between 24 and 25 seconds. So when it is restarted, does it restart to the true time or to some other default value? It seems like setting it to 15:00 actually sets it to 14:59.5. So setting it to :09 may actually set it to :08.5. It’s as if the clock is programmed to reset every time it restarts. And the default value is to split the difference between rounding down and rounding up. Because over the course of a game, this should theoretically level itself out.
To confirm for those wondering, the black and white clock in the corner (not the video I'm using) IS footage of a field clock. Aside from its slight jitteriness, we can see physical transition caught in-frame (as in, we can see two numbers at once) from 0:09 to 0:08, as well as to seconds 0:05, 0:03, and 0:02.
Interestingly.. it IS out of sync by 4 or 5 frames, as in the clocks on the field showed 0:00 even earlier than the replay showed. I'll try to confirm that from other angles later. <- Edit: Nevermind, the inset clock is in sync within a frame. One of the replays with it didn't have a clean start, but others are fine.. blame it on their computers.
Interestingly.. it IS out of sync by 4 or 5 frames, as in the clocks on the field showed 0:00 even earlier than the replay showed. I'll try to confirm that from other angles later. <- Edit: Nevermind, the inset clock is in sync within a frame. One of the replays with it didn't have a clean start, but others are fine.. blame it on their computers.
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Is it any wonder why the Supreme Court bends these people over the bench every time they make their bias arguments before them. The NCAA and The Big Ten conference by extension are institutions that arrive at a conclusion that was decided before the argument has even begun. Institutional protection at all costs. Decency and honor be damned. Just a corrupt and vile group of individuals that care only for their grasp on power.
sbillini
- st petersburg, fl
Interesting. If this is all true then wmu should’ve won the game and there’s two deeper issues. Why are the game clocks ticking faster on the first second? And two, why did the replay clock not sync to the game clock? I guess it’s a question of who do you want to be correct. If the scoreboard clock is technically wrong all the time, maybe the replay clock is actually correct. So technically the correct call was made at the end. But I lean more towards if there’s a structural issue with the scoreboard clock, you just have to let it stand as it happened and fix the scoreboard clock going forward.
I’d still want to see the replay with the scoreboard clock and the snap in the same frame to get fully convinced. But holy moly what a wacky scenario
A likely explanation for this behavior would be rounding from the actual, much higher precision time being counted in the electronics of the clock (which likely goes out to hundreds or thousandths of a second). So it displays 9 from 9.000 to 8.500, then displays 8 from 8.499 to 7.500, and so on. That would line up with the frame counts you observed.
BUT...in the big 10 official replay account, they had some clock still showing 0:01 when the ball touched the WMU player's hand, which doesn't line up at all with what we saw on the TV clock. So it cannot be explained away by any sort of rounding. I guess I still dont understand what the clock shown live on the broadcast actually is, or how it could somehow be ahead of the stadium clock, as it would have to be for the Big 10 explanation to hold up.
Also, we all know this never happens if the teams are reversed.
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ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
The Big Ten's statement said:
That system failed, plainly. And the idea that "oh, the error is on NBC's end this is just broadcast stuff that went out to the dum dums in front of their TV's" totally misunderstands the way this works. The various NBC camera angles, including the clock *are* what the replay officials use. It's only because TV broadcasters are there that you can have replay in the first place.
The truth is? Football is a game of inches, it is not a game of milliseconds, never has been, and micro-timing against the clock is not a part of the game in any other context, thus why there aren't tenths of a second on the clock, this just isn't a thing.
They operated with an illusion of precision and made an "indisputable" call that very much wasn't.
The sport of football does not want this or need this.
Beyond all the analysis of this latest College football atrocity remains one most basic reality...
If the game had ended with the ‘first’ ending and a Western Michigan win... not a single person on the field or watching from anywhere in the World would have complained. Not even the most rabid Blue & Maize fanatic would have bothered to offer some bizarre theory that some kind of phantom time should be put back on the clock. The game was over and everyone knew it. It does not take atomic clocks set to the cosmic rotation of Saturn that are located on the Moon to determine when the game ended. The Eye Test was enough to see.
Not everyone would be happy with who won (of course)... but no reasonable person would have questioned that the game was over. That is a ‘Reasonable Man’s/(Persons) Standard’ of test that simply would not have been questioned.
Going forward... there should be a new rule. If on any ‘reasonable, official’ clock it shows anything less than one full second remaining... the refs should run that blip of time off the clock to meet a reasonable standard of fairness. Clock-operator error could easily be at play with anything less than a full second anyway. Due to human error that ‘last’ second could in fact be bogus anyway and non-existent.
College ball needs to get this right. The question is... they probably don’t want to so that They can once again save one of these National Protected Programs of Privilege from losing a game that they had already lost. Why, there's big ratings money at stake! All those ad rates and future contract negotiations!
Nebraska lost a Championship years ago because the Privileged Texas Longhorn program had to be handed a win in the ‘last’ second by the refs. Husker fans still hurt over that one.
Maybe they just need to go ahead and make a single Conference of all those privileged protected programs and let them go it by themselves. Then maybe the rest of College ball might get a little more fairness and honest outcomes. And the players and fans, too.
Otherwise, we are watching the College version of World Wrestling Entertainment.
If the game had ended with the ‘first’ ending and a Western Michigan win... not a single person on the field or watching from anywhere in the World would have complained. Not even the most rabid Blue & Maize fanatic would have bothered to offer some bizarre theory that some kind of phantom time should be put back on the clock. The game was over and everyone knew it. It does not take atomic clocks set to the cosmic rotation of Saturn that are located on the Moon to determine when the game ended. The Eye Test was enough to see.
Not everyone would be happy with who won (of course)... but no reasonable person would have questioned that the game was over. That is a ‘Reasonable Man’s/(Persons) Standard’ of test that simply would not have been questioned.
Going forward... there should be a new rule. If on any ‘reasonable, official’ clock it shows anything less than one full second remaining... the refs should run that blip of time off the clock to meet a reasonable standard of fairness. Clock-operator error could easily be at play with anything less than a full second anyway. Due to human error that ‘last’ second could in fact be bogus anyway and non-existent.
College ball needs to get this right. The question is... they probably don’t want to so that They can once again save one of these National Protected Programs of Privilege from losing a game that they had already lost. Why, there's big ratings money at stake! All those ad rates and future contract negotiations!
Nebraska lost a Championship years ago because the Privileged Texas Longhorn program had to be handed a win in the ‘last’ second by the refs. Husker fans still hurt over that one.
Maybe they just need to go ahead and make a single Conference of all those privileged protected programs and let them go it by themselves. Then maybe the rest of College ball might get a little more fairness and honest outcomes. And the players and fans, too.
Otherwise, we are watching the College version of World Wrestling Entertainment.