2017 Coaching Carousel

BananaShampoo · Feb 15, 2017

TCTORNADO said:
Groce has used 9 different starting lineups this year.

Part of the reason for his downfall. Groce seems to take far too long to settle on an ideal starting lineup and ideal rotations during the course of seasons and so his teams have never had the chance to develop an ideal chemistry or identity. We talk about his teams having no identity because of his system, but players playing together and learning the nuances of each others game is just as important. One reason the 04-05 team was so good was that all of those starters had almost two full seasons to develop together in what was a mostly unchanged starting lineup for two full seasons.

Golfer63 · Feb 15, 2017

Obelix said:
We hired a good, promising, young AD with strong ties to our program. But we did not hire agent 007. Posters often exaggerate what Whitman can do, frequently referring to completing the job search before we even begin. There are even posts that mention that he has already secured Cuonzo. None of it is true, even if Cuonzo ends up the candidate. If schools could secure coaches before firing a coach, many other schools would have done it.

Same is true with Colangelo. Every time Illinois conducts a coaching search, there will be frequent posts that mention that Colangelo is pulling the strings and is heavily involved. I worked with many people in the AD in the past, and still know quite a few in the current AD (although many less than in previous administrations), and while Colangelo has often been consulted, he has never been the one pulling the strings. Same with Khan. Yet, their names always appear on coaching searches on message boards, because it makes for "feel good" rumors, similar to the many "feel good" rumors about recruits.

Same with Fletcher, he is doing a really good job, but if you read Illini message boards, you'd think that we have discovered the fountain of youth and the Illini team has transformed itself as the king of athleticism and strength in the entire college basketball world.

Many exaggerations and unfair expectations for Whitman, yet I think Whitman will do an excellent job. But he is no magician.

I think a lot of the belief in JW stems from him landing Lovie Smith. Nobody saw it coming and it was a grand slam hire for Illinois football. In a way, it could put somewhat unfair expectations on who JW is able to land in preceding coaching searches.

FeelYourPaign · Feb 15, 2017

Tygor said:
Without injury issues that plagues other programs.

A little bit of the 9 starting lineup observation is inevitable. Black not available at the start of the season and Kipper not available until the second semester. Some of it is injury . . . Thorne has proven to me at least that he is more injured than we would have expected. But some of it is odd and 9 different combos is quite a bit.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Feb 15, 2017

Tygor said:
Without injury issues that plagues other programs.

We used 14 last year with all our injuries. Still time to catch that number this season.

TCTORNADO · Feb 15, 2017

Wisconsin has started the same lineup this year for all 25 games.

FollowTisdale · Feb 15, 2017

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
We used 14 last year with all our injuries. Still time to catch that number this season.

Not hard to do when you start a guy with the intention of only playing him the first 3:30 then sticking him to the bench for the rest of the night.

Actually, does it really matter who Groce starts? He's automatically going to sub in 3 guys around the 1st officials time out anyway, no matter what the score or how the "starters" have played. Gotta follow the cookie cutter game plan. And this is the guy some people think need to be coaching our all star recruiting class.

KHT :shield:

Calvin · Feb 15, 2017

illiniwil said:
What have you seen that makes you think coach Groce can win with any combination of players

Yup. And having a perfect replacement is a terrible strawman. 1. You can't find perfection, and 2. You aren't going to line up a replacement until you go through the process.

Hiring a new coach may be easier some years than others, but it's still what an AD has to do.

Fighter of the Nightman · Feb 15, 2017

Calvin said:
Yup. And having a perfect replacement is a terrible strawman. 1. You can't find perfection, and 2. You aren't going to line up a replacement until you go through the process.

Hiring a new coach may be easier some years than others, but it's still what an AD has to do.

Yep. Beckman was terrible, but you don't not fire Zook, afraid you can't do any better. That's just how it is.

rdillini · Feb 15, 2017

Fighter of the Nightman said:
Yep. Beckman was terrible, but you don't not fire Zook, afraid you can't do any better. That's just how it is.

That being said, in this day and age, you use your back channels and make sure you have options so you don't get stuck with a guy like Beckman. I would think basketball is a more attractive position than foot ball coach at Illinois. But if Whitman is not convinced in his ability to hire someone markedly better than Groce and coupled with his apparent like of Groce, I see him giving him more time. I don't see him pulling trigger for another MAC coach or someone of that ilk. If he can get Archie Miller or someone like that, different story although not sure why Miller would possibly leave his current gig for Champaign.

UofI08 · Feb 15, 2017

Can someone make a "Keep Groce" thread for the 4 delusional people to hug each other?

There's no way Groce is not fired. Please stop with the strawman arguments about not finding someone better than Groce. There is a good argument to be made that Groce is the worst coach in the Big Ten. There's probably 50 better coaches available.

Illiniguy13 · Feb 15, 2017

UofI08 said:
Can someone make a "Keep Groce" thread for the 4 delusional people to hug each other?

There's no way Groce is not fired. Please stop with the strawman arguments about not finding someone better than Groce. There is a good argument to be made that Groce is the worst coach in the Big Ten. There's probably 50 better coaches available.

It's remarkable there are apologists still out there.

UofI08 · Feb 15, 2017

I get that he's a great guy. And yeah part of me feels bad to see him fail. But the truth is that HE HAS FAILED. He has to be fired and replaced.

Illiniguy13 · Feb 15, 2017

UofI08 said:
Can someone make a "Keep Groce" thread for the 4 delusional people to hug each other?

There's no way Groce is not fired. Please stop with the strawman arguments about not finding someone better than Groce. There is a good argument to be made that Groce is the worst coach in the Big Ten. There's probably 50 better coaches available.

Thinking about it now...I suppose Groce really is the worst coach in the BIG10 today. That's dawning on me now. Lol.

UofI08 · Feb 15, 2017

Illiniguy13 said:
Thinking about it now...I suppose Groce really is the worst coach in the BIG10 today. That's dawning on me now. Lol.

Yeah it's a very sobering thought. You could make the argument for every other coach over Groce.

RML · Feb 15, 2017

IlliniMed said:
Doesnt matter. You fire the coach immediately and MOVE ON. The quicker you rip the bandaid the easier the healing process will become

I wanted Weber to go, but wish we would had lined somebody up first.

skibdaddy · Feb 15, 2017

I think what many of these "apologists" are saying is that JW will have a coach verbally commit before he lets go of Groce. The way the Lovie hire went down was masterful (and also got him the job), so I'm sure he would want to have a bird in the hand vs. hoping for one of the 17 birds in a bush.

Personally I hope that JW has a short A-list of candidates and if none are giving him the bird in hand vibe he sticks with Groce for another season. Settling for a B or C-list guy doesn't seem to fit JW's MO.

If wanting to keep Groce due to striking out on the top 3-4 options makes me an "apologist" so be it. Also because I've only got a few posts doesn't make my opinion worse vs. someone with thousands (or any less of an Illini fan).

Go ILLINI :chief:

dmac279 · Feb 15, 2017

UofI08 said:
I get that he's a great guy. And yeah part of me feels bad to see him fail. But the truth is that HE HAS FAILED. He has to be fired and replaced.

Bingo

Tygor · Feb 15, 2017

If Groce comes back next year, we'll be projected 13th or 14th in the conference at best. Heck, we're going to finish there this year with a veteran team, let alone with new freshmen and without really known upper class leadership. I honestly think the only way Whitman keeps Groce is to set him up to fail next year, which doesn't make much sense at all seeing what he's about.

Whitman has a plan already, let's just let it play out.

Adnarel · Feb 15, 2017

skibdaddy said:
Personally I hope that JW has a short A-list of candidates and if none are giving him the bird in hand vibe he sticks with Groce for another season. Settling for a B or C-list guy doesn't seem to fit JW's MO.

If wanting to keep Groce due to striking out on the top 3-4 options makes me an "apologist" so be it. Also because I've only got a few posts doesn't make my opinion worse vs. someone with thousands (or any less of an Illini fan.

I've been chewing on this thought myself, weighing the pros and cons. Haven't made up my mind yet, but it is true that some in this forum would have a code blue if this happened. I really don't want to settle for another downstream option... because it's what got us to this point in the first place.

FeelYourPaign · Feb 15, 2017

Tygor said:
If Groce comes back next year, we'll be projected 13th or 14th in the conference at best. Heck, we're going to finish there this year with a veteran team, let alone with new freshmen and without really known upper class leadership. I honestly think the only way Whitman keeps Groce is to set him up to fail next year, which doesn't make much sense at all seeing what he's about.

Whitman has a plan already, let's just let it play out.

Sure, as long as you consider endless speculation to be a part of letting it play out

LurkLongandProsper · Feb 15, 2017

skibdaddy said:
I think what many of these "apologists" are saying is that JW will have a coach verbally commit before he lets go of Groce. The way the Lovie hire went down was masterful (and also got him the job), so I'm sure he would want to have a bird in the hand vs. hoping for one of the 17 birds in a bush.

Personally I hope that JW has a short A-list of candidates and if none are giving him the bird in hand vibe he sticks with Groce for another season. Settling for a B or C-list guy doesn't seem to fit JW's MO.

If wanting to keep Groce due to striking out on the top 3-4 options makes me an "apologist" so be it. Also because I've only got a few posts doesn't make my opinion worse vs. someone with thousands (or any less of an Illini fan).

Go ILLINI

The inherent flaw in this thinking is that you can strike out on your A list guys, wait a year, and have a fresh crop of new A list guys.

There's not many A-List guys, and this isn't recruiting where you miss on top targets and then get a brand new class the next year with brand new top names and a fresh start.

The coaching pool doesn't really change (in terms of adding new names), existing names just add a year to their resume. (I don't want to hear that we'd all of a sudden be interested in a first year coach, i've read this entire thread to know that's a lie).

So if Miller, Marshall, etc say no, and they're your entire A list, go look at guys you feel could be the next A-listers or are one solid year away from being an A-lister in your mind. What would they have to achieve in 2017-2018 to make them an A-List candidate to you, and what are the odds of them achieving that in your mind? If Keatts just needs one more 22 win season to be an A-List guy to you, then there's no reason to tank another season just to play it safe, because odds are incredibly high he can do that. Same with Musselman, what does he need to do? And so on.

Miller and co aren't going to say no now and yes later unless their stock drops, for the record.

We have to start working to slow the descent of the program, and that's why a new coach should, and likely will, be found, even if it's not Miller, Marshall, etc. Groce is going to continue the freefall, starting with (further) killing fan support of the program AND spurring folks turning on Whitman, should he be retained.

thunderwear · Feb 15, 2017

Tevo said:
So you feel that either (a) the incoming class next year will be good enough to make the team MORE appealing to other coaches in 2018, even if they once again go 7-11, 6-12 (or worse) in conference play, or (b) that Groce will suddenly learn how to coach and prove that he should be kept long-term. Is that right?

In response, I (a) haven't heard anyone make a real case for this team being better next year than this year, based solely on the incoming Freshman being better prepared for Big Ten Basketball than the outgoing 4th and 6th-year seniors, and another year of losing just makes this program look even worse. And (b) I can't imagine how Groce would suddenly grow skills in the offseason that he hasn't shown in the past four. He's shown no capacity to change his approach, or try new schemes, or change his coaching staff to make things better.

I think the program will be in better shape with the current class in tact than without it.

I think groce needs to go.

But the move has to be executed with competence. Who wants to come to a program with no freshman class, an uncertain pipeline, a three year tenure and awful dispersion of scholarships across classes? It's not a setup for success. I personally don't think groce was setup for success.

It's not clear that there are coaches we want that will take over the program.and even worse, we publically offer every available coach l, get turned down and end up with another temporary replacement

Illwinsagain · Feb 15, 2017

BlindLoyalty said:
It has been suggested to me that some of the names mentioned throughout this thread as prospective hires perceive Whitman as a "football guy" based on his background, experience and priorities at Illinois. A few of the names would only leave their current positions for a University that is a "basketball school" where the basketball program is the unquestioned #1 priority for the university, athletic department, AD, fans and donors. Illinois is not perceived that way by a few of the names mentioned.

I certainly don't think of U of I as a football school. It would be great if we could have success in both. The 20s belong to the Illini!

UofI08 · Feb 15, 2017

skibdaddy said:
Personally I hope that JW has a short A-list of candidates and if none are giving him the bird in hand vibe he sticks with Groce for another season. Settling for a B or C-list guy doesn't seem to fit JW's MO.

Ok. So what level of list would Groce be on? If he's not an A-list coach, why keep him? I think it's pretty clear that he's a "no-list" coach. So you're saying that if JW gets shut out of his 2-3 "A" coaches, he should stick with his "F" coach? That sure doesn't seem to fit with his MO.

UofI08 · Feb 15, 2017

I don't understand how far some people think we've fallen. Yes we have had a string of bad seasons. Even if we finished dead last in the Big 10 for 10 straight years, coaches would still want to come here with our facilities, resources, location, conference, etc...

2017 Coaching Carousel

Captain 'Paign