2017 Coaching Carousel

Status
Not open for further replies.
#876      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
LurkLongandProsper said:
I would agree that I'd prefer an x's and o's oriented guy, because that feels more sustainable, but you still have to be able to recruit at a semi-high level to land those types of guys and a difference maker every few years.
Click to expand...

Right, you don't ignore recruiting ability, but you should have a healthy appreciation for the fact that ability to coach basketball is easier to project than ability to recruit.

Basically, take your framework back to 2000, ask yourself whether it would lead you to a young mid-major X's and O's svengali like Tulsa coach Bill Self, or a proven recruiter and Chicago AAU maven like DePaul coach Pat Kennedy.

If your coaching search machine flunks that test, get out the toolbox and keep tinkering.
 
#877      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Second and Chalmers said:
Bo's record in the tournament isn't exactly stellar.

Bo's superpower was finishing Top 4 in the Big Ten for 14 straight years. An incredible feat of consistency and team-building in the face of roster turnover.

Self has finished in the Top 1 of the Big XII for 12 straight years. And he hasn't brought in as many Calipari-type classes as you remember.

There's more similarity between the two than their reputations on this board.
Click to expand...

Bo Ryan actually has a very good NCAA tournament record (0.64), Bill Self has better (0.70) but he has also had a lot more talent than Bo Ryan over the years. Bill Self's Big 12 record would not be able to be replicated in the B1G, as highly as I think of Bill Self.
 
#878      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
mattcoldagelli said:
If it were up to me, Keatts is the guy. If I had to bet on someone being a star, it's him. But there are so many short-term things that make sense about Cuonzo Martin that I totally understand going that direction and would be excited about that, too.
Click to expand...

I'd add Jeff Capel to that list, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he just unknowingly became Duke's head coach for good.
 
#879      

MadSeason

MadSeason
MadSeason
Obelix said:
If Bill Self was 95% of Bo Ryan, he would have a lot more NCs at Kansas. Easy to say that now though, but the popular perspective on Illini boards when Self left, and a few years following that, was that Bill Self was a bad X's and O's coach who had a deteriorating team at UI. If I just had a dime for every time someone mentioned that ND game on Illini message boards, I'd be that influential donor making the coaching decision for JW.
Click to expand...

People were irrationally upset after an NCAA loss, which always happens.

I don't know anyone that thought UI was a deteriorating team with Dee, Deron, Augie becoming Sophs and Charlie Villanueva committed. I remember 95% of the fans being absolutely devastated when Self left.
 
#880      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Second and Chalmers said:
Basically, take your framework back to 2000, ask yourself whether it would lead you to a young mid-major X's and O's svengali like Tulsa coach Bill Self, or a proven recruiter and Chicago AAU maven like DePaul coach Pat Kennedy.
Click to expand...

LOL... really fair and balanced comparison there, scraping Phat Pat from the bottom of the barrel.

You might as well ask the young mid-major X's and O's svengali like Gonzagas coach Dan Monson versus the proven recruiter John Calipari :D
 
#881      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Obelix said:
LOL... really fair and balanced comparison there, scraping Phat Pat from the bottom of the barrel.

You might as well ask the young mid-major X's and O's svengali like Gonzagas coach Dan Monson versus the proven recruiter John Calipari :D
Click to expand...

Monson wasn't quite Bill Self, and Cal was an NBA coach at that time.

It's easy to forget, Pat Kennedy was a killer recruiter in his day and at that moment looked to have DePaul back on track to the elite. That would not have been a bad hire at all to replace Kruger. My point isn't to rag on Kennedy, it's that Self was a star in a way that suggested but didn't in any way prove his future recruiting prowess.

A credible winner will get players whether he's an oily used car salesman or not.
 
#882      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
MadSeason said:
People were irrationally upset after an NCAA loss, which always happens.

I don't know anyone that thought UI was a deteriorating team with Dee, Deron, Augie becoming Sophs and Charlie Villanueva committed.
Click to expand...

The ND game was more mentioned when Self actually left, not before, in comparison to our good fortunes with Weber. As far as the "deteriorating" comment, the reference was to the ever popular comment (again after Self decided to leave) that Self took a team from Elite 8 (his first year), to Sweet Sixteen (second year), to NCAA second round (third year).

I'd say it was not 95% disappointment when Self decided to leave, but actually close to 100%. Unfortunately, 95% of those on Illini boards, turned their disappointment to irrational posts on how bad of a coach Self was. :)
 
#883      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Second and Chalmers said:
A credible winner will get players whether he's an oily used car salesman or not.
Click to expand...

Not true, there are many coaches who win at pretty good schools, especially mid-majors, and fail at the big stage, Weber and Monson included.
 
#884      

MadSeason

MadSeason
MadSeason
Obelix said:
The ND game was more mentioned when Self actually left, not before, in comparison to our good fortunes with Weber. As far as the "deteriorating" comment, the reference was to the ever popular comment (again after Self decided to leave) that Self took a team from Elite 8 (his first year), to Sweet Sixteen (second year), to NCAA second round (third year).

I'd say it was not 95% disappointment when Self decided to leave, but actually close to 100%. Unfortunately, 95% of those on Illini boards, turned their disappointment to irrational posts on how bad of a coach Self was. :)
Click to expand...

After Self left there was a level of stupidity unparalleled in Illini history. If thats what you were referring to completely then I totally agree. Bill Self's departure was the first break in the dam that lead us to where we are now
 
#886      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Obelix said:
Not true, there are many coaches who win at pretty good schools, especially mid-majors, and fail at the big stage, Weber and Monson included.
Click to expand...

Monson was not a credible winner. We compared him to the Gil character from the Simpsons on the old IlliniBoard for a reason.

I mean a credible winner at the high-major level. Guys like Fran McCaffery, John Beilein, etc. They'll get what they need.

Weber could have been that. He's a good enough coach. But the man had a gift for finding every pothole and driving straight over it.
 
#887      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
MadSeason said:
After Self left there was a level of stupidity unparalleled in Illini history. If thats what you were referring to completely then I totally agree. Bill Self's departure was the first break in the dam that lead us to where we are now
Click to expand...

That's what I am referring to. The devastation/disappointment was close to 100%, which is a testament to his approval while he was here. Self's departure was indeed the first break in the dam, followed by questionable hiring decisions and overall program management.
 
#889      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Second and Chalmers said:
Monson was not a credible winner. We compared him to the Gil character from the Simpsons on the old IlliniBoard for a reason.

I mean a credible winner at the high-major level. Guys like Fran McCaffery, John Beilein, etc. They'll get what they need.

Weber could have been that. He's a good enough coach. But the man had a gift for finding every pothole and driving straight over it.
Click to expand...

I am not sure how you can say Self was a credible winner (with 3 years and one E8) versus Monson was not (with 2 years and 1 E8 at a bigger stage, Gonzaga). There are many more credible winners, with even more years, like Todd Lickliter, failed as well. Not a fan of Fran, I think he would be another terrible fit at Illinois.
 
#891      

GortTheRobot

G
North Bethesda, Maryland
GortTheRobot
StateFarmCenter said:
I don't consider making the tournament an accomplishment. Groce needs to at least win a game there or finish with a minimum 11 B1G wins to make up for these previous 4 years, I would think . Someone had mentioned that Groce has helped lowered expectations so much where the fanbase is simply content with making the tournament and little more. In a bizarre way, he has helped himself by doing so poorly by lowering the bar for himself. I agree.
Click to expand...

Just catching up with the thread, and I agree with you completely on this SFC. I can't get excited about sneaking into the tourney for one game, or eking out victories any more. For me, Groce's teams just do not pass the eye test. He has gotten some good talent, and that helps them win games like tOSU, who are struggling as well, but he gets seriously out-coached too often, and we don't respond because NOBODY knows what to do...coaches or players.

Sorry for the mini-rant, or micro-aggression, as my students would say, but I have been a fan for a long time, and I just can't stand to see us struggle for so long. I desperately want the program to get back to its former glory. I like Groce, but I just don't see it. I still hope he proves me wrong this season.
 
#892      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Obelix said:
I am not sure how you can say Self was a credible winner (with 3 years and one E8) versus Monson was not (with 2 years and 1 E8 at a bigger stage, Gonzaga).
Click to expand...

Sorry if I'm being unclear.

I'm saying you need to find someone who PROJECTS to be a credible winner at the high-major level, and then trust that that person will be able to convert that into the kind of talent they need to sustain that success.
 
#897      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Second and Chalmers said:
I'm a big Fran fan. He's obviously an insufferable human being, but I love the way his teams play.
Click to expand...

Fran missed the tournament 3 years in row, actually 4 years in a row if you consider that he lost in the play-in game his fourth year. :confused:
 
#898      

BananaShampoo

B
Captain 'Paign
Phoenix, AZ
BananaShampoo
MadSeason said:
He only had 4 RSCI top 100 from 2007-2012

Sampson Jr- 64
Joseph- 98
White- 31
Williams-46

Not a lot of talent by Big 10 standards
Click to expand...
He also didn't recruit all that well for UK (by their standards), and it's tough NOT to attract Top 25 talent there.
 
#900      

homesickalien

homesickalien
Springfield
homesickalien
If we only had Brandon Miller still on the staff. That was a bigger loss then I think some people realize.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.