2017 Coaching Carousel

Second and Chalmers said:

That is absolute crazy talk.

We can sit here and pretend that people weren't saying the exact same thing about Groce's first team if we want to.

JCL and Black were hailed as All-Big Ten caliber stars on this board when they committed as recruits. They both have difference making talent. Neither is yet an upperclassman. And now we've resigned ourselves to "blowing it up" as a Rutgers-level doormat when they are the experienced leaders of the team.

You guys are RIDICULOUS. How on earth am I the bad guy for throwing this in everyone's face? You tout these players as superstars and then at the absolute first whiff of adversity once they are on campus you COMPLETELY give up on them.

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This has been a great discussion and your points have been great and against the grain and the same can be said for those with opposing views. I think you like Coach overall(provably more as a person), but if we make the tourney as say an 11 seed and somehow manage to make it to the second weekend, do you keep Coach? If so, in your opinion, is that correct and long term answer? Is Coach Groce's ceiling high enough to ever be our long term solution?

rmlsr said:

Whitman put himself in this tough spot by not firing Groce at the end of last season! Some of us seen this train wreck coming but Whitman bought what Groce was selling. Now he wasted a year and has to do what should've been done a long time ago!!!

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Haven't looked at this thread because I wanted to stay optimistic, but now, well, here I am, I've lost that fight.

I've seen little to believe in the coaching, and I agree, Whitman will be on the spot. Mind you, I don't blame him given the circumstances. There are a lot of reasons he might have chosen to see another season with the current staff:

*show deference to boosters which are an important constituency. I assume going into the season there was more support than now, given that last year a lot of folks gave him a pass and said we're a lock for the tourney with a healthy roster. MT and TA getting a sixth year was icing on the cake for that argument.

*managed a good recruiting class despite the situation. I'm impressed with the disconnect between our results and recruiting. I give JG complete credit for his efforts there.

*related to that, he's an excellent salesman and has an infectious positive attitude. Early on, virtually everyone raved about his press conferences. Now, it's kind of hard to watch the positive appraisal after a crap performance, but it works for a while.

*football needed the most attention, giving the PR problem that was growing

*we don't know what sort of outlook JW may have had regarding alternatives. It's possible he had his reservations, but little ability to deliver a change that would get the job done and get people on board.

I've seen years of JG now, enough to feel I know his style:

1 He's relentlessly positive. This is comes off as a great thing, but when it comes right down to it, the team doesn't show up consistently. Flat games are common, and TNT is a bad joke. I look at the great coaches of this era, and they all have a bad side you don't want to get on --something I'm sure Groce has, but I don't feel like he uses well, either game to game, or over a season.

2 He doesn't take chances on game day. This is something that is bugging me more and more. You have to let players get in game experience to apply to practice. I hate seeing mediocre upperclassmen getting entrenched over younger players who really need PT to develop and should give the starters cause to look over their shoulder. Of course, if you can't develop players well, you're not going to trust your young guys to use that time. And at some point, it's self fulfilling. I felt like Weber got into this spiral of not taking chances, the team playing tighter, and every mistake becoming more of a focus than the mission. Guys like Tracy and Black are just too tough to give in to this attitude, but I think the team overall suffers from it.

3. Ugly bball. Can anyone convince me he's implemented a good system? Offensively? Defensively? Do we have an identify? Can we get stops? Do guys know what their bread and butter is during crunch time. Yikes, this is the question I wouldn't want people asking because I don't see how anyone who knows bball would say yes.

Ryllini said:

This has been a great discussion and your points have been great and against the grain and the same can be said for those with opposing views. I think you like Coach overall(provably more as a person), but if we make the tourney as say an 11 seed and somehow manage to make it to the second weekend, do you keep Coach? If so, in your opinion, is that correct and long term answer? Is Coach Groce's ceiling high enough to ever be our long term solution?

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Not S&C, but I can tell you that for me; sneaking into the tournament isn't enough to restore my faith in Groce. Admittedly, I never bought in like most others. I feel many gave him the faith they did initially solely because he wasn't Weber and not for anything that he had actually accomplished. I always thought he was in over his head from a coaching perspective. I say all that to say that I was never sold on him being the answer here, and he's proven that out.

Some truly fantastic back and forth here, very entertaining reading. I, for one, believe that we are seeing the end of the Groce era. What I wonder more about is where JW's mind is with all of this. Is he as ambivalent as we are as a group, or is he more certain, and just waiting to see if anything changes his mind? As difficult as this season is already, there is some very well-thought out speculation occurring here. Bottom line, whatever is best for the program, despite what is means for a good man, or a good recruiting class.

radiodj said:

Not S&C, but I can tell you that for me; sneaking into the tournament isn't enough to restore my faith in Groce. Admittedly, I never bought in like most others. I feel many gave him the faith they did initially solely because he wasn't Weber and not for anything that he had actually accomplished. I always thought he was in over his head from a coaching perspective. I say all that to say that I was never sold on him being the answer here, and he's proven that out.

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Thanks for the reply, I think you are probably right, he wasn't Weber and his coach speak was inspiring, still is in a way. I want him to succeed, because he seems like a great person and represents all of us very well, but I think for the program's sake he will be gone, is that right, I don't know. I can see it now though, we improve late in the season, typical Groce coached team fashion, cruise to the second weekend and lose a tough sweet sixteen game and now Whitman has to decide is that who we are, a markedly improved team headed into the offseason, or is it smoke and mirrors.

Second and Chalmers said:

That is absolute crazy talk.

We can sit here and pretend that people weren't saying the exact same thing about Groce's first team if we want to.

JCL and Black were hailed as All-Big Ten caliber stars on this board when they committed as recruits. They both have difference making talent. Neither is yet an upperclassman. And now we've resigned ourselves to "blowing it up" as a Rutgers-level doormat when they are the experienced leaders of the team.

You guys are RIDICULOUS. How on earth am I the bad guy for throwing this in everyone's face? You tout these players as superstars and then at the absolute first whiff of adversity once they are on campus you COMPLETELY give up on them.

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I never said these guys were not talented. With the (potential) mass quantity of freshman coming in, this is an inexperienced group. JCL and Leron have legitimate experience and B1G talent. Finke has experience and I think he'll break out huge next year (the bigs take longer to develop idea). I also think 1-4 we'll be more athletic. There's only a couple guys who have done it in games. This group can be more molded by a new coach, and there is decent talent/athleticism there to be a great foundational group. Maybe blow it up is too strong of a phrase for what I mean. I more meant blow up the coaching staff, not the whole program.

Ryllini said:

This has been a great discussion and your points have been great and against the grain and the same can be said for those with opposing views. I think you like Coach overall(provably more as a person), but if we make the tourney as say an 11 seed and somehow manage to make it to the second weekend, do you keep Coach? If so, in your opinion, is that correct and long term answer? Is Coach Groce's ceiling high enough to ever be our long term solution?

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I would be violating one of my own golden rules by saying so, but an upset run to the Sweet Sixteen would do an awful lot for me. Does catching a high seed on a bad night (or stumbling into a 14 seed perhaps) outweigh the 30-something game sample size in terms of evaluating the quality of the team? It shouldn't. But you can't ignore what a big deal it would be to be back in the second weekend for the first time since '05.

That strikes me as kind of an easy decision though (who has ever fired their coach after reaching the second weekend? Does a case exist?). The harder one is a first-round exit as an 11-seed.

My biggest fear is not re-signing Groce for two tourney-free disappointing years before we can fire him again. It's another Beckman situation where we take the plunge and make the financial and emotional investment in a new coach only for that person to be a dead man walking in about five minutes. Yes, Beckman was a singular boob who we aren't likely to find another example of even if we tried, but having to convince myself that the Beckman era wasn't dead from the first quarter of the Arizona State game through the day he was fired as the evidence against him piled up was my worst experience ever as a sports fan.

I bring that up because my worry is that if Groce makes the tournament for the first time in four years, then gets fired, and the new coach isn't a household name and gets off to a rocky start (loses Tilmon, perhaps someone transfers, the adjusment goes poorly the first year), that guy is toast before he even gets off the ground and we're stuck as a zombie program for multiple years, and that blowback damages Whitman's credibility as well.

It is always my first instinct to take the worst case scenario off the table if possible. That's the worst case scenario.

I think having our name called on the selection show would be an awesome moment, I'm not sure we all realize how good that's going to feel at long last. I understand that many apathetic Illini fans with memories of 2005 aren't going to care and aren't going to come back and fill the seats, but my instinct is to declare victory at that point and sign Groce to an extension that says "the two-year Black/JCL/Tilmon era is yours, go get 'em".

If we've only limped into the tournament I admit I won't be wildly confident going forward, but as you mentioned I really do like Groce and if there's a credible scenario where he can continue, that's what I would do with a gun to my head.

I do not, however, see how there is any credibility left in the Groce era if we don't make the tournament with this roster.

So it's a very clear, simple tourney/no tourney boundary for me. Which I why I 1000% guarantee we're losing in the First Four. Nothing can ever be simple.

I think Mike Thomas will go 0-3 For coaching hires. I think Bollant and Groce both on very thin ice (probably due to Global Warming). I do not see them as the future for Illini Basketball. I like John Groce, he is a good man. I don't know coach Bollant. A lot of good men are poor coaches. And the opposite is true. If new coaches are in our near future, do not hire the hot mid-major coach that happened to make the sweet sixteen once in a career. We need a coach that is used to the Big Spot Light. Some one who's coaching reputation makes us better, not one that our school makes their reputation better. I don't if I'm even making any sense, still stunned by Indiana game and the season as a whole or as a hole, which is more accurate, I don't know.

FiveStar said:

This group can be more molded by a new coach, and there is decent talent/athleticism there to be a great foundational group.

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Totally agree with this.

Sorry, I think I somewhat misinterpreted your original post. Thought my point about many posters here overrating recruits and then underrating them when they wear O&B still stands.

Second and Chalmers said:

I would be violating one of my own golden rules by saying so, but an upset run to the Sweet Sixteen would do an awful lot for me. Does catching a high seed on a bad night (or stumbling into a 14 seed perhaps) outweigh the 30-something game sample size in terms of evaluating the quality of the team? It shouldn't. But you can't ignore what a big deal it would be to be back in the second weekend for the first time since '05.

That strikes me as kind of an easy decision though (who has ever fired their coach after reaching the second weekend? Does a case exist?). The harder one is a first-round exit as an 11-seed.

My biggest fear is not re-signing Groce for two tourney-free disappointing years before we can fire him again. It's another Beckman situation where we take the plunge and make the financial and emotional investment in a new coach only for that person to be a dead man walking in about five minutes. Yes, Beckman was a singular boob who we aren't likely to find another example of even if we tried, but having to convince myself that the Beckman era wasn't dead from the first quarter of the Arizona State game through the day he was fired as the evidence against him piled up was my worst experience ever as a sports fan.

I bring that up because my worry is that if Groce makes the tournament for the first time in four years, then gets fired, and the new coach isn't a household name and gets off to a rocky start (loses Tilmon, perhaps someone transfers, the adjusment goes poorly the first year), that guy is toast before he even gets off the ground and we're stuck as a zombie program for multiple years, and that blowback damages Whitman's credibility as well.

It is always my first instinct to take the worst case scenario off the table if possible. That's the worst case scenario.

I think having our name called on the selection show would be an awesome moment, I'm not sure we all realize how good that's going to feel at long last. I understand that many apathetic Illini fans with memories of 2005 aren't going to care and aren't going to come back and fill the seats, but my instinct is to declare victory at that point and sign Groce to an extension that says "the two-year Black/JCL/Tilmon era is yours, go get 'em".

If we've only limped into the tournament I admit I won't be wildly confident going forward, but as you mentioned I really do like Groce and if there's a credible scenario where he can continue, that's what I would do with a gun to my head.

I do not, however, see how there is any credibility left in the Groce era if we don't make the tournament with this roster.

So it's a very clear, simple tourney/no tourney boundary for me. Which I why I 1000% guarantee we're losing in the First Four. Nothing can ever be simple.

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You're absolutely correct about a Sweet 16 run, but apart from something like that, I would have to imagine that the preponderance of evidence over the last 4 plus years shows that Groce isn't the guy to lead this program and is a very poor coach overall. Also, I've never met the man. My travels have taken me from the northwest suburbs to Columbia, MO to Houston, Tx; but something about him had always come off as fake to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's always been my impression from a distance.

Who am I kidding, if we get a top line coach, they leave when a better job comes along or their Alma Mater needs a new coach. Or the have enough success they think they are ready for the NBA. I am just an idiot, thinking a new coach will make it better or maybe the next, next new coach. I am delusional thinking we still are the Fighting Illini. Ex chancellors and fearless leaders have robbed us of the Fighting or Illini parts. We need a coach that was an Illini, but who would be that coach? Judson, Howard, Brown, a second generation coach, son of a former assistant coach? How did I get so negative, by being so optimistic since 2005.We can't even entice a good coach to come here anymore, oh how the mighty have fallen. It would have been better to have been on probation, then maybe I could accept our fate.

Sorry, Dan, Sorry Posters. Having my loosing to Indiana again, pity party. I live in Indiana/Kentucky section of Illinois. Getting hammered by friends and family. I would love if the coaches and kids would make a run to the NCAA's. I wish it for them.

As the assistants go, where do they fit in in all of this. My overall impression is Walker is our best. He coaches the bigs if I remember correctly and they have improved the most in my opinion thhroughout the 5 years, granted he has had 3 grad transfers, but Egwu really developed, Mav is great offensively, and Black in his second year of playing has been good for us. It also helps he has locked up JT as well.

What does Coach Ford bring to the table? I believe he is in charge of substitution patterns and they are sub par and I can't remember any recruitment that he has been the lead on. Is he one of the assistants that stay back with the team while Groce, Parham, and Walker are on the road recruiting? If so, doesn't a lot of the team's mindset and preparation fall on him.

I like Parham overall, honestly I don't know a ton about him, but what are his coaching chops. How is his instruction? Is he here for Chicago connections, because if so, I think we could do better with a former Illini on staff or another Chicago icon.

Should Groce stay, I'd say we should look at replacing Ford and potentially Parham. Find an old grizzled coaching vet that fits Coach Groce's philosophies and run this team. I don't know what is happening with Dee, but it may be time to bring Jerrance home.

Coach seems like a loyal guy and probably to a fault, but just by seeing some interviews and demeanor on the sidelines, the personalities do not mesh.

Second and Chalmers said:

So, we're dealing with a small sample size when we're talking about coaching changes, and obviously a player leaving a program is always going to be a he-said, she-said in terms of who the instigating party was, but since this explosion of transfers has largely happened in the last couple of years, here's just a taste:

Texas fired Rick Barnes, hired Shaka Smart, enrolled all of Barnes' signees (including two four-stars), but had two transfers.

Georgia Tech fired Brian Gregory, hired Josh Pastner, enrolled all of Gregory's signees, but had one transfer.

Oklahoma State fired Travis Ford, hired Brad Underwood, enrolled all of Ford's signees (including one four star), but had two transfers.

Arizona State fired Herb Sendek, hired Bobby Hurley, enrolled all of Sendek's signees (including one four star), but had four transfers (two of which appear to be more of a disciplinary issue)

Those were the four coaching changes of the last two years that seemed to most closely match our situation. A small sample size, but food for thought.

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Love this! Refreshing to see someone actually using data to support, or better yet, formulate a point. Coincidentally, I had been doing some similar research, wondering how at risk Illinois could be in the event of a coaching change. We do differ on the Pastner/Gregory transition - I had found one GT signee, Romello White, who was released from his LOI after Gregory got fired. I show Pastner keeping two guys, signing one late, Justin Moore, and then losing White.

For my Google searches, I actually looked more at some of the 2014 hires, like Cuonzo, Pearl, and Buzz, that replaced fired coaches. And even though all of these guys had some LOI releases, what we don't really know is whether some of these were more of the Orris variety, i.e., thanks but no thanks...

• Cuonzo Martin - two signings released, #117 PG Ahmaad Rorie and #165 PF Idrissa Diallo. Signed #306 C Kingsley Okoroh and PG #350 Brandon Chauca that spring.
• Buzz Williams - one signing released, #349 SG TJ Lang, kept #84 Justin Bibbs and #191 Jalen Hudson. Also, brought with #61 Ahmed Hill and #241 C Satchel Pierce, two Marquette released signees.
• Bruce Pearl - one signing released, #170 Sam Longwood, but kept one, #198 Jack Purchase, signed PF Cinmeon Bowers, the #1 rated JC player and later that summer, #76 C Trayvon Reed. He also took in TJ Lang from VTech that spring.

Second and Chalmers said:

...The idea that recruiting is hindered in the first year of a new coaching administration does not hold up to scrutiny. Just off the top of my head, Cuonzo Martin at Cal, Mark Gottfried at NC State, Dave Rice at UNLV and Steve Lavin at St. Johns all brought monster, game-changing recruiting classes to non-blue blood schools in their first year at the helm.

This became a piece of folk wisdom around here as an excuse for Groce finishing as a bridesmaid for so many big recruits. It was a way to relieve the cognitive dissonance of JFG the elite recruiter versus the actual results. It isn't true.

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Spot on. Besides Cuonzo, plenty of evidence of other coaches doing very well that first full year. Pearl (#15 class in 2015 according to 247), Wojo (#13), and Buzz (#23). Alford had the #8 class in 2014 and Howland had the #9 class in 2016.

Even Groce had the #14 class in 2013 according to 247 with two 4-stars (Hill & Nunn), though like some of the above guys, this class ranking was somewhat inflated due to volume rather than quality. Though as we all know, this was the class that brought in Tate and Colbert while Groce potentially eschewed or didn't close on better options, like Ben Moore (SMU), Nic Moore (SMU), or Scoochie Smith (Dayton). But that's for another thread.

Ryllini said:

As the assistants go, where do they fit in in all of this. My overall impression is Walker is our best. He coaches the bigs if I remember correctly and they have improved the most in my opinion thhroughout the 5 years, granted he has had 3 grad transfers, but Egwu really developed, Mav is great offensively, and Black in his second year of playing has been good for us. It also helps he has locked up JT as well.

What does Coach Ford bring to the table? I believe he is in charge of substitution patterns and they are sub par and I can't remember any recruitment that he has been the lead on. Is he one of the assistants that stay back with the team while Groce, Parham, and Walker are on the road recruiting? If so, doesn't a lot of the team's mindset and preparation fall on him.

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IIRC Ford coaches the bigs and Walker has the PGs.

radiodj said:

You're absolutely correct about a Sweet 16 run, but apart from something like that, I would have to imagine that the preponderance of evidence over the last 4 plus years shows that Groce isn't the guy to lead this program and is a very poor coach overall. Also, I've never met the man. My travels have taken me from the northwest suburbs to Columbia, MO to Houston, Tx; but something about him had always come off as fake to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's always been my impression from a distance.

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People that constantly speak in positive buzzwords and cliches tend to come off that way, IMO.

Ryllini said:

Thanks for the reply, I think you are probably right, he wasn't Weber and his coach speak was inspiring, still is in a way. I want him to succeed, because he seems like a great person and represents all of us very well, but I think for the program's sake he will be gone, is that right, I don't know. I can see it now though, we improve late in the season, typical Groce coached team fashion, cruise to the second weekend and lose a tough sweet sixteen game and now Whitman has to decide is that who we are, a markedly improved team headed into the offseason, or is it smoke and mirrors.

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Sadly, what you describe isn't what I would call "Typical Groce". After his first year at Illinois, I believed that is typical Groce.

Then year 2 happened, in which we didn't get better late year.

In year 3, the team absolutely fell apart and imploded late season (with a senior Ray Rice and growing studs in Hill and Nunn). I was shaken to my Illini soul by the blowouts late that year starting with second half Purdue and ending with Alabama. To this day, I would LOVE to hear anyone's explanation of what happened.

In year 4, injuries killed the year but we didn't see a ton of player development (aside from Hill and maybe Mav) it seemed. If we had, I would have been excited to watch the players growing. There have been teams decimated by injuries, such as Michigan, where it lead to early development of other players and some fun entertainment for fans.

In year 5, we're seeing a team that can grind out winnable games at home or neutral and gets blown out on the road. Despite having a true star in Malcolm and plenty of talent overall, we're a tight team that plays well within itself and does nothing well.

I hope this is the year we return to a hot finish. But it's only happened 1 in 4 years at Illinois...

Look at a list of B1G coaches.

Now tell me how many of them Groce can out recruit.

Collins? Miles? McCaffery? Pickiell?

Look at the list again.

Tell me who he can out coach.

Pitino?

LurkLongandProsper said:

Trent stated on Twitter he's not going anywhere regardless.



We also have nothing to worry about with DaMonte or Javon going anywhere. So really, it's just Tilmon.



No problem :thumb: Feel free to follow up once you read that post with any updated thoughts (or no change), always interested in folks' thoughts, even if I do disagree (provided they are based in reality/evidence)

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The context shared about Frazier is helpful. I hadn't seen that text from him. Losing only Tilmon, as big as that would be, is easier to deal with. I agree with the collective wisdom that the class cannot be a reason to retain the current staff. It does pain me but I look back to Weber's last year, the talent, and the terrible results. The end is always ugly. No reason to draw it out.

It was helpful to be reminded by the article regarding the level of talent that we've successfully recruited vs. the rest of the big ten. What was most helpful about the Illiniboard article was the point they made about the strength of Illinois' bench. The strength of players 6-11. I think that is aligned with what many of us feel about the need to play bench players more. We're disappointed with the product on the court... and yet there don't seem to be any steady changes in who starts/plays.

Bottom line, I'll continue to hope for good things to happen this year, as I'm sure we all will. I'll continue to hope for faster and more pronounced adjustments by Groce. I won't expect this, but I'll hope for it. Thanks for helping me stay steadily in favor of a regime change.

Would Greg McDermott be interested in the Illinois job? Would we be interested in him?

His greatest ever player being his (youngest) son and his failed tenure at Iowa State concern me, but that's a team that really wows you when you watch them.

Second and Chalmers said:

Would Greg McDermott be interested in the Illinois job? Would we be interested in him?

His greatest ever player being his (youngest) son and his failed tenure at Iowa State concern me, but that's a team that really wows you when you watch them.

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That's a good name, something tells me he wouldn't get a whole lot of support, but they do play exciting ball there.

Second and Chalmers said:

Would Greg McDermott be interested in the Illinois job? Would we be interested in him?

His greatest ever player being his (youngest) son and his failed tenure at Iowa State concern me, but that's a team that really wows you when you watch them.

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The more I think about it, I think Keatts at UNC-Willimington would be a great hire.

JMAC8504 said:

Jeff Capel is interesting. He had decent-good success at VCU and OU. Maybe pair him up w/ some illini assistants like RGIII or Chester Frazier and maybe we have a future.

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TooHot4Tots said:

Didn't Capel get fired for going 14-36 last two seasons at OU?

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Yep, not feeling Capel, for exactly those last two seasons at OU. And hard not to be a "great recruiter" when you have Duke on your shirt and Coach K doing the closing.

GortTheRobot said:

The truth certainly does hurt. Archie Miller, please. Unless you can land Marshall or Jacobson.

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coltjames03 said:

Everyone who wants Martin apparently want to go through all this again in a few years. The guy isn't a great coach at all. Definitely not a guy who is going to change the program around. Miller is a definite if he would come but if it came down to Groce and keeping this class coming up or Martin, well give me Groce

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Also, why all of the love for Archie Miller? Sure, he's put up a solid record at Dayton (.676 overall winning %), but so did Brian Gregory (.647) and tapping the hot Dayton coach didn't quite work out for GTU. Unless we're talking a Final Four coach (ala Marshall), I'm not convinced an A10 coach is a "definite". Seems like competing in the ACC or B1G would be much harder than doing it in the A10. Outside of VCU and St. Joe's, does anyone really scare you there? And while Archie has made the NCAAs the last three years, his team's performance has progressively regressed, culminating with a first-round exit last year.

On the flip side, why the lack of respect for Cuonzo Martin? As I know was pointed out earlier in this thread, all three programs for which he's coached enjoyed improvements each year, with Missouri St. winning the MVC (over Marshall's WSU team) his last year there. Then at UT-Knoxville, he took over for local fav Pearl and within three years had the Vols winning 24 games, finishing 4th in the SEC and getting to the Sweet 16. Finally at Cal, hard to ignore his 23 wins at Cal, finishing 3rd in the Pac12 and making the tournament last season. Unfortunately, even though they've played their ranked opponents tough, he doesn't have a marquee win yet this season and currently sit 10-5 (pending tonite's game at USC).

On the recruiting front, he obviously hit the jackpot with the 2015 class at Cal (two 5-stars), though last year's two-man class was only headlined by #71 Charlie Moore though he did get Marcus Lee as a transfer. He also successfully recruited a 5-star in his last year at UT (#19 Robert Hobbs). But of any of the potential candidates who could succeed Groce, I would think Martin would have the best chance of keeping Tilmon in the fold, just due to their shared ESL connection. What would also be deliciously ironic is if Corey Tate ended up on his Illinois staff. I would have to think that Martin and him crossed paths while Cuonzo was at Missouri St. and Tate was coaching the STL Eagles. Got to think they'd be locking down the STL area for sure (Ramey, Gordon, Littell, etc.)

The Pontiff said:

On the flip side, why the lack of respect for Cuonzo Martin? As I know was pointed out earlier in this thread, all three programs for which he's coached enjoyed improvements each year, with Missouri St. winning the MVC (over Marshall's WSU team) his last year there. Then at UT-Knoxville, he took over for local fav Pearl and within three years had the Vols winning 24 games, finishing 4th in the SEC and getting to the Sweet 16. Finally at Cal, hard to ignore his 23 wins at Cal, finishing 3rd in the Pac12 and making the tournament last season. Unfortunately, even though they've played their ranked opponents tough, he doesn't have a marquee win yet this season and currently sit 10-5 (pending tonite's game at USC).

On the recruiting front, he obviously hit the jackpot with the 2015 class at Cal (two 5-stars), though last year's two-man class was only headlined by #71 Charlie Moore though he did get Marcus Lee as a transfer. He also successfully recruited a 5-star in his last year at UT (#19 Robert Hobbs). But of any of the potential candidates who could succeed Groce, I would think Martin would have the best chance of keeping Tilmon in the fold, just due to their shared ESL connection. What would also be deliciously ironic is if Corey Tate ended up on his Illinois staff. I would have to think that Martin and him crossed paths while Cuonzo was at Missouri St. and Tate was coaching the STL Eagles. Got to think they'd be locking down the STL area for sure (Ramey, Gordon, Littell, etc.)

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If there is a change at Illinois I believe the only question remaining is whether Cuonzo wants the job. I have to imagine he sits atop any imaginary list for a multitude of reasons. He checks almost every box a candidate for Illinois could possibly check

The Pontiff said:

Yep, not feeling Capel, for exactly those last two seasons at OU. And hard not to be a "great recruiter" when you have Duke on your shirt and Coach K doing the closing.

Also, why all of the love for Archie Miller? Sure, he's put up a solid record at Dayton (.676 overall winning %), but so did Brian Gregory (.647) and tapping the hot Dayton coach didn't quite work out for GTU. Unless we're talking a Final Four coach (ala Marshall), I'm not convinced an A10 coach is a "definite". Seems like competing in the ACC or B1G would be much harder than doing it in the A10. Outside of VCU and St. Joe's, does anyone really scare you there? And while Archie has made the NCAAs the last three years, his team's performance has progressively regressed, culminating with a first-round exit last year.

On the flip side, why the lack of respect for Cuonzo Martin? As I know was pointed out earlier in this thread, all three programs for which he's coached enjoyed improvements each year, with Missouri St. winning the MVC (over Marshall's WSU team) his last year there. Then at UT-Knoxville, he took over for local fav Pearl and within three years had the Vols winning 24 games, finishing 4th in the SEC and getting to the Sweet 16. Finally at Cal, hard to ignore his 23 wins at Cal, finishing 3rd in the Pac12 and making the tournament last season. Unfortunately, even though they've played their ranked opponents tough, he doesn't have a marquee win yet this season and currently sit 10-5 (pending tonite's game at USC).

On the recruiting front, he obviously hit the jackpot with the 2015 class at Cal (two 5-stars), though last year's two-man class was only headlined by #71 Charlie Moore though he did get Marcus Lee as a transfer. He also successfully recruited a 5-star in his last year at UT (#19 Robert Hobbs). But of any of the potential candidates who could succeed Groce, I would think Martin would have the best chance of keeping Tilmon in the fold, just due to their shared ESL connection. What would also be deliciously ironic is if Corey Tate ended up on his Illinois staff. I would have to think that Martin and him crossed paths while Cuonzo was at Missouri St. and Tate was coaching the STL Eagles. Got to think they'd be locking down the STL area for sure (Ramey, Gordon, Littell, etc.)

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(1) Capel landed Blake Griffin at Oklahoma. He's a good recruiter. Also, Coach K alone doesn't win recruitments over Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, and so on. Read about Jeff Capel as a recruiter at Duke. He's highly touted for his work in that area there, and some people even believe he is the coach in waiting at Duke! Not an accident, he's a highly valued assistant right now. Here's an article from March 2016th (ESPN Insider) that named him the best recruiting assistant in D1: http://www.espn.com/blog/ncbrecruiting/on-the-trail/insider/post?id=15109.

(2) Archie Miller is one of the hottest candidates on the market. He's made it further in the tournament than Cuonzo ever has, and the A10 is a strong conference. Texas just hired a coach out of the A10 recently! They have quite a few solid teams in that conference, including SLU, St Joe's, Dayton, Rhode Island, Davidson, VCU. The latter 4 are all higher than us in KenPom right now as well (Dayton and Rhode Island are also both above Cal, if you were wondering), and all of those teams except Rhode Island have made the tournament more recently than us if I'm not mistaken. Also, comparing a coach to his predecessor just because they're at the same school is pretty unfair. Also also, Georgia Tech? That is a hard job. If we're comparing ourselves to Georgia Tech, we aren't going to hire anyone good.

(3) I do not care about picking a coach just for Tilmon specifically, I find that just dumb, honestly. If the argument is he is more likely to bring in top 25 talent, fine, although I don't think that is true compared to Jeff Capel. I want whoever the next coach is to be able to succeed beyond the 2-4 years of Tilmon, so Tilmon specifically is a non-factor as it pertains to the selection of a new coach.

(4) Cuonzo's teams don't play fun to watch basketball, as has been discussed, and he really hasn't done much of anything in the postseason (less of a big deal to me than others, but Capel and Archie have Elite 8s, and even Ben Jacobson has a sweet 16). His one conference title is in the MVC, and if you're going to knock the A10 and Archie, you can't seriously flaunt his achievements in the MVC as a pro for Cuonzo, because the A10 is significantly stronger than the MVC. Succeeding in the SEC with a now-down Florida isn't really that impressive either, that conference has been a 2 or 3 bid league for half a decade.


You're free to like Cuonzo more than Archie Miller, Capel, etc. but the arguments you've made against those candidates don't make sense to me. I don't disagree that Cuonzo has upside as a recruiter, or that he's had success turning teams around. I don't think much of his x's and o's, and for me, that hinges his career on recruiting at a really high level. Philosophically not something I love, and I think Capel and Archie would be better hires. I never said I'm anti-Cuonzo, but he's not my first choice.