2017 Coaching Carousel

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#201      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
blmillini said:
I believe that basketball talent is typically more apparent on the offensive end. Hard work, desire and coaching are more apparent in defense and rebounding. Our issues are not related to our offensive ability. Therefore, I disagree that we have a lack of talent and wholeheartedly subscribe to the theory that we simply do not provide adequate coaching. Whether it due to the coaching staff's need for the guys to like them or their inability to coach that part of the game, I don't know, but something needs to change and I don't believe getting slightly better recruits that we continue to fail to teach how to defend and rebound is going to help.
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Our issues are related to both ends of the floor. What we see is bad coaching with average talent. Definitely not a team that is "very talented." It is not. It does not mean that this team has bad talent or we are getting the most out of our talent, but we are far from having a team that can be characterized as very talented.

Groce has been a poor game coach, but also has not been a great recruiter. I like his current class, but is not an exceptional class either. It is the kind of foundation class that Groce needed to pull 3-4 years ago. JMO.
 
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#202      

radiodj

R
Houston
radiodj
Obelix said:
Yes, he has. And that is true with most names thrown here. If you can get Archie Miller, it is a home run hire. Whether we can get him or not is another question. To be successful at Illinois, a coach needs to be a good recruiter. You need to get the talent. It does not mean that you can win if you are a bad X's O's coach, but you will not outsmart B1G coaches with your game coaching ability.

Bill Self is a HOF coach. I think he is a good game coach (others disagree), but not exceptional. Yet, he will always get the talent to compete, even dominate within his conference. He was able to deal with HS and AAU coaches in Illinois and is able to deal with them everywhere. He does not avoid it. As hard as it is, it is a lot more difficult to find the next Bo Ryan at Illinois than the next Bill Self.
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Excellent post! The only thing I'd disagree with is Self's X's and O's. He's light years better at that now than he was when he was at UI.
 
#203      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
radiodj said:
Excellent post! The only thing I'd disagree with is Self's X's and O's. He's light years better at that now than he was when he was at UI.
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Coaches learn, but I would not call Self's coaching light years ahead of what it was at Illinois. I always thought he was a good game coach (many disagreed over the years - even at his current coaching at KU) but not exceptional. Self has the overall package, he is a HOF coach, although I do not believe he is the best coach in basketball. I believe that Izzo is hands down the best coach in college basketball.
 
#204      

MadSeason

MadSeason
MadSeason
This is definitely not one of the more talented teams we have seen during the modern era of Illinois (Henson, Kruger, Self, Weber).

It is however average to slightly above average combined with a lot of experience. We have seen coaches at Illinois, (yes even Weber) coach up teams with far less ability imo.

2006-2007 With Weber
1997-1998 With Kruger

Are two examples that jump out at me as under talented but experienced groups whose sum was greater than its parts. I think this roster blows those 2 away. I still believe that this team could gel and find the right roles for the right players and make a run. It is very early with a lot of guys who haven't played much together. However the early returns are definitely alarming and Groce faces an uphill task. He is going to have to find the right rotation of guys and get buy in from those who may have to play less than they are used to.

This season can be saved, but Groce has an increasingly uphill battle to face.
 
#205      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
MadSeason said:
This is definitely not one of the more talented teams we have seen during the modern era of Illinois (Henson, Kruger, Self, Weber).

It is however average to slightly above average combined with a lot of experience. We have seen coaches at Illinois, (yes even Weber) coach up teams with far less ability imo.

2006-2007 With Weber
1997-1998 With Kruger

Are two examples that jump out at me as under talented but experienced groups whose sum was greater than its parts. I think this roster blows those 2 away. I still believe that this team could gel and find the right roles for the right players and make a run. It is very early with a lot of guys who haven't played much together. However the early returns are definitely alarming and Groce faces an uphill task. He is going to have to find the right rotation of guys and get buy in from those who may have to play less than they are used to.

This season can be saved, but Groce has an increasingly uphill battle to face.
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Of course, and Groce is not getting the most of this team, or even enough. As it stands right now, this is not an NIT team, let alone an NCAA team. We can't fall further behind in pre-conference, especially given the early tough schedule in B1G. As of now, things are getting out of hand.
 
#206      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Obelix said:
Our issues are related to both ends of the floor. What we see is bad coaching with average talent. Definitely not a team that is "very talented." It is not. It does not mean that this team has bad talent or we are getting the most out of our talent, but we are far from having a team that can be characterized as very talented.

Groce has been a poor game coach, but also has not been a great recruiter. I like his current class, but is not an exceptional class either. It is the kind of foundation class that Groce needed to pull 3-4 years ago. JMO.
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My beef with Groce's coaching has been in almost every aspect of traditional coaching. I do think there are things he does well, and he recruits exceptionally well. That's not to be understated since that is probably the #1 thing a coach does. I get the love for him, when you combine his presentation skills, character, and recruiting. Let's not undersell those.

But go down the list of mundane, traditional coaching job responsibilities, and frankly, I don't have any faith in him. I bring this up, because there are things you can fix, and things you aren't going to fix. Most of Groce's deficiencies, IMO, are not fixable. The one that really gets me though, is guys being prepared.

I think of this as having 3 aspects:
1. Being tactically ready for any given game
2. Having a hungry team with hungry players with a lot to prove
3. Longer term development. Groce has made some very short term decisions with player development that I think hurt the longer term. You gotta give kids chances to fail or they don't do the things above in the list. It may be short minutes, or if they're truly not ready, only in mop-up time, but kids have to be able to move up that list. Keep the top dogs looking over their shoulder, and the younger guys pushing the older ones. This is competitive basketball --you can support your guys while you take them through the realities of competition, but you can't shield them from having to rise to the occasion and push themselves.

I'll say it again: Great teams are hungry, and what I've seen is the opposite. I see shockingly tentative play riddled with simple mental mistakes and execution that has reminded me of high school play. I can handle losing, but since the Miami game, the team I've watched the last several years has been less and less watchable even adjusting for our roster. If I were the AD, I would have dumped Groce last season for sure --Newman can attest to this, not that it matters.

Low motivation = low ceiling. If you like a train wreck, I suppose this is watchable basketball.
 
#207      

GameOfThrows

G
GameOfThrows
As Illini fans we've been blessed to have good basketball coaches.

Self
Kruger
Henson
Weber

in that order are all better basketball coaches. Each of them knows the game better and how to coach better than Groce. Weber was an awful recruiter, hence why he failed.

But, as a fan of basketball and watching it played properly, Groce-ball is unwatchable.
 
#208      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Calvin said:
I do think there are things he does well, and he recruits exceptionally well. That's not to be understated since that is probably the #1 thing a coach does. I get the love for him, when you combine his presentation skills, character, and recruiting. Let's not undersell those.
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I do not think Groce recruits exceptionally well. Definitely not true IMO. He does present well and is a good communicator. Character is very subjective, not sure what that means, Groce has definitely taken chances in his career with questionable characters (players), although he is definitely not the person who will get into any personal trouble, so if you mean that, then I agree.
 
#209      

blmillini

B
Bloomington, IL
blmillini
Obelix said:
Our issues are related to both ends of the floor. What we see is bad coaching with average talent. Definitely not a team that is "very talented." It is not. It does not mean that this team has bad talent or we are getting the most out of our talent, but we are far from having a team that can be characterized as very talented.

Groce has been a poor game coach, but also has not been a great recruiter. I like his current class, but is not an exceptional class either. It is the kind of foundation class that Groce needed to pull 3-4 years ago. JMO.
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I would agree that we are not "very talented". However, I would suggest that we are far more talented than some of the teams Weber had. We are far more capable offensively than many of his teams. But, he knew how to teach his teams to play defense and this coaching staff just does not seem to have that ability. I believe we have enough talent to be in the top half of the Big 10, on the edge of the top 25 and able to make the NCAA tournament without difficulty.
 
#210      

the national

the national
the Front Range
the national
Calvin said:
My beef with Groce's coaching has been in almost every aspect of traditional coaching. I do think there are things he does well, and he recruits exceptionally well. That's not to be understated since that is probably the #1 thing a coach does. I get the love for him, when you combine his presentation skills, character, and recruiting. Let's not undersell those.

But go down the list of mundane, traditional coaching job responsibilities, and frankly, I don't have any faith in him. I bring this up, because there are things you can fix, and things you aren't going to fix. Most of Groce's deficiencies, IMO, are not fixable. The one that really gets me though, is guys being prepared.

I think of this as having 3 aspects:
1. Being tactically ready for any given game
2. Having a hungry team with hungry players with a lot to prove
3. Longer term development. Groce has made some very short term decisions with player development that I think hurt the longer term. You gotta give kids chances to fail or they don't do the things above in the list. It may be short minutes, or if they're truly not ready, only in mop-up time, but kids have to be able to move up that list. Keep the top dogs looking over their shoulder, and the younger guys pushing the older ones. This is competitive basketball --you can support your guys while you take them through the realities of competition, but you can't shield them from having to rise to the occasion and push themselves.

I'll say it again: Great teams are hungry, and what I've seen is the opposite. I see shockingly tentative play riddled with simple mental mistakes and execution that has reminded me of high school play. I can handle losing, but since the Miami game, the team I've watched the last several years has been less and less watchable even adjusting for our roster. If I were the AD, I would have dumped Groce last season for sure --Newman can attest to this, not that it matters.

Low motivation = low ceiling. If you like a train wreck, I suppose this is watchable basketball.
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I was just about to make similar points (though you said it more eloquently tan I could :) ) Our guys just never look ready. The only game I can recall where we came out with some pop was against Gonzaga with BP. Outside that game, or even that season, I haven't seen it. Thats the biggest problem I see. People keep saying that they hope JFG can turn it around. I suppose I can hope but Ive been down this road before. I'm tired of hoping and being overly optimistic for better results. What we are watching IS the norm. We are seeing it right now. The last 3 games were pathetic. If we could have won at least one of them, i might feel differently. However, as it stands, I don't think he deserves another year. He'd have to finish top 5 in B1G for me to feel differently.
 
#211      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
GameOfThrows said:
As Illini fans we've been blessed to have good basketball coaches.

Self
Kruger
Henson
Weber

in that order are all better basketball coaches. Each of them knows the game better and how to coach better than Groce. Weber was an awful recruiter, hence why he failed.

But, as a fan of basketball and watching it played properly, Groce-ball is unwatchable.
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I do not believe Weber is a good basketball coach, but it is better to keep the discussion on Groce. I think Weber is also responsible for Illinois' demise and will be in trouble at KSU, as Groce is currently at UI. Self is guaranteed HOF, Kruger may not make the HOF but is extremely solid. Henson exhibited the most dedication and re-established the program. We were blessed to have all three.
 
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#212      

CAHALL15

C
Central Illinois
CAHALL15
Obelix said:
Coaches learn, but I would not call Self's coaching light years ahead of what it was at Illinois. I always thought he was a good game coach (many disagreed over the years - even at his current coaching at KU) but not exceptional. Self has the overall package, he is a HOF coach, although I do not believe he is the best coach in basketball. I believe that Izzo is hands down the best coach in college basketball.
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Give me coach K and his gold medals and titles, but Izzo is definitely up there.

Groce has an opportunity to put a bad week behind us, but there are no signs pointing to that. Tupper really did hit the nail on the head with his article especially regarding his views on the current players. I mean JCL has only made one 2pt field goal this entire year thus far. Yeah he's a good shooter, but even Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson will step inside the arc. I'm sure Whitman hears the chatter.
 
#213      

Give it to Greene

G
Give it to Greene
Fighter of the Nightman said:
The only relevant thing you mentioned is that he went there. Every AD and coach worth his salt knows that it simply shouldn't be hard to win here. Period. I think we finally have the AD in place who can convince these coaches who know it's POSSIBLE that it could be PROBABLE with the right leadership. Mark my words, Whitman will break the bank and more or less have his pick of the litter.

If you were a coach who truly believed, deep down, that you could succeed at the highest level, you'd be a moron not to take this job. It's BEGGING to be successful!
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I certainly agree with this analysis.... after watching since 1950, I've seen a lot... But this last 10-11 years has been brutal.
I'd have to think that any coach who believes in himself, KNOWS that this is a real diamond just waiting to be re-discovered.... :illinois:
 
#214      

Give it to Greene

G
Give it to Greene
ritster said:
And Tate's attitude has been a self fulfilling prophecy. That attitude has to go. It's time for Tate to hang that negative "it can't be done here" attitude up. If any one of us did that in our personal life or business we would be abysmal failures.
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When Clean Gene left, and we landed Lou, Tate's headline at the News Gadget was: 'Lou Who'... Front page.... check it out...
 
#215      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Obelix said:
I do not think Groce recruits exceptionally well. Definitely not true IMO.
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How many coaches could miss the tourney 3 straight years and land a top-15 class? I'll grant you it's subjective, and if you look in hindsight you could downgrade his recruits, but going into this year, with his results, I would have never thought he could land this class. YMMV
 
#216      

Deleted member 173571

D
Guest
Deleted member 173571
IMO it is pointless to opine on what Groce does well and what he doesn't because the proof is in the abysmal results of the last 3+ years. I wanted him to succeed just like all of us but he has proven he can't. Therefore, it is time to spend time on (as a fanbase) speculating who should be our next coach. I say that all the while hoping for a miracle - Groce turning things around this year (23 or more wins...and marked improvement in deficient areas).
 
#217      

Deleted member 4960

D
Guest
Deleted member 4960
Obelix said:
I do not believe Weber is a good basketball coach, but it is better to keep the discussion on Groce. I think Weber is also responsible for Illinois' demise and will be in trouble at KSU, as Groce is currently at UI. Self is guaranteed HOF, Kruger may not make the HOF but is extremely solid. Henson exhibited the most dedication and re-established the program. We were blessed to have all three.
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Is Weber partially responsible yes, but he at least made the tournament every other year. He would of made it the last year too if Mike Thomas hadn't made it cleat he was going in a different direction at the end of the year. If you remember that team was 10 or 11-2 heading into conference. Groce has taken us nothing but down.
 
#218      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Obelix said:
Kruger may not make the HOF
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Tangential, but I bet he does. He's about to hit 600 wins, which would get you in the conversation, but he also has a FF at 2 different schools, and S16 at 4 different schools. He's not that old yet, either, by coaching standards. He could easily go another 5 years.
 
#219      

Deleted member 4960

D
Guest
Deleted member 4960
The reason he has landed a top 15 class is because 3 out of 4 are from down state. Those kids are notoriously more loyal to Illinois than Chicago area kids.
 
#220      

BananaShampoo

B
Captain 'Paign
Phoenix, AZ
BananaShampoo
Calvin said:
Tangential, but I bet he does. He's about to hit 600 wins, which would get you in the conversation, but he also has a FF at 2 different schools, and S16 at 4 different schools. He's not that old yet, either, by coaching standards. He could easily go another 5 years.
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I'd love for old Lon to finish his coaching career with us. Wonder what the chances are he'd ever come back.
 
#221      

Illiniguy13

Illiniguy13
Illiniguy13
the national said:
I was just about to make similar points (though you said it more eloquently tan I could :) ) Our guys just never look ready. The only game I can recall where we came out with some pop was against Gonzaga with BP. Outside that game, or even that season, I haven't seen it. Thats the biggest problem I see. People keep saying that they hope JFG can turn it around. I suppose I can hope but Ive been down this road before. I'm tired of hoping and being overly optimistic for better results. What we are watching IS the norm. We are seeing it right now. The last 3 games were pathetic. If we could have won at least one of them, i might feel differently. However, as it stands, I don't think he deserves another year. He'd have to finish top 5 in B1G for me to feel differently.
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The inconsistencies are what rub me the wrong way. As others have mentioned, I have seen examples where Groce gameplans quite well (Gonzaga with BP is a good example, Miami in the tourney, Purdue last year). Then we see WVU trainwrecks. And once upon a time in 13/14 if I'm not mistaken, this team had somewhat of a defensive identity. No excuse for that to come and go.
 
#223      

Calvin

C
Calvin
thethrash said:
IMO it is pointless to opine on what Groce does well and what he doesn't because the proof is in the abysmal results of the last 3+ years.
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Agree, but he's had a lot of defenders, at least up until this last week.

I expect he's cooked, barring a 180 degree turn-around. It must suck to be on the team right now. Morale has to be rock bottom, your leader has no credibility, and there's still a ton of games to play.
 
#224      

illinoisfan11

I
Peoria, IL
illinoisfan11
I've got no reason to think he'd leave his current gig, but I love Steve Prohm at Iowa State. He's making $1.5M there. So maybe for enough money he'd listen?
 
#225      

UIGrad03

U
UIGrad03
Chathamillini said:
Is Weber partially responsible yes, but he at least made the tournament every other year. He would of made it the last year too if Mike Thomas hadn't made it cleat he was going in a different direction at the end of the year. If you remember that team was 10 or 11-2 heading into conference. Groce has taken us nothing but down.
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LMAO
 
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