2017 Coaching Carousel

Obelix · Jan 10, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
Whitman's first day on the job was March 5, the last game of our basketball season was March 11. Obviously Whitman was engaged in courting Lovie before March 5, but that was his first day officially on the job.

Whitman was hired Feb. 16, the official start is less important as he was already meeting with Lovie in early March. As far as coaches, unless a coach is out of the NCAA tournament, it is hard to negotiate before late March early April (1.5 months after he got the job).

And the Lovie thing is just not comparable to what Whitman faces here, on a number of levels. This is going to be a bigger challenge for him.

That's exactly right, that is why I do not believe that Cubit (an interim coach) getting the job (with the school administration not having an AD) will have nothing to do with Groce (an existing coach) surviving.

I wouldn't have been furious if we'd made a move last year

Joel Goodson · Jan 10, 2017

Kathy said:
Buzztap just posted on twitter: Why John Groce Is NOT Getting Fired Anytime Soon buzztap.com/-Yz35Vb

That guy knows squat about the inner workings of Whitman's mind.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 10, 2017

Obelix said:
That's exactly right, that is why I do not believe that Cubit (an interim coach) getting the job (with the school administration not having an AD) will have nothing to do with Groce (an existing coach) surviving.

Sorry, I didn't understand this. Restate?

Second and Chalmers · Jan 10, 2017

Joel Goodson said:
That guy knows squat about the inner workings of Whitman's mind.

This isn't rocket science, it's brain surgery!

Obelix · Jan 10, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
Sorry, I didn't understand this. Restate?

That's actually more of a jab at earlier statements you had made.

You tried to compare that Cubit (an interim coach) surviving last year, a decision made by administration (not by an AD or Whitman) would be the same as Groce (an actual coach) who Whitman made a decision to keep last year, also surviving this year. Apples and oranges, two different situations.

mattcoldagelli · Jan 10, 2017

Joel Goodson said:
That guy knows squat about the inner workings of Whitman's mind.

I don't know why, but our coaching hot seat is drawing the attention of some of the internet's most feeble word-typers.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 10, 2017

Obelix said:
You tried to compare that Cubit (an interim coach) surviving last year, a decision made by administration (not by an AD or Whitman) would be the same as Groce (an actual coach) who Whitman made a decision to keep last year, also surviving this year. Apples and oranges, two different situations.

First of all that's only in the case of Groce getting a pretextual, Cubit-esque extension that clearly exists only to entrap Tilmon and Frazier. A full blown financial commitment into the future would be a different thing.

Still the two are not identical. But there is a common thread of just throwing an entire season away in an attempt to out-think the coaching carousel process.

In a way it would be worse, because while the situation was 100% of the administration's own making, it was undeniably true that in December 2015, we were in a worse position to attract a coach than we could have expected to be in December 2016. The burden far outweighed the benefit, but there was a benefit.

The Tilmon poaching benefit, on the other hand, is a total illusion.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 10, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
I don't know why, but our coaching hot seat is drawing the attention of some of the internet's most feeble word-typers.

Honest question: is there a buck to be made in thinking-man's coaching carousel blogging? Because you're right, what's out there from an analysis perspective (as opposed to a reporting perspective - which FootballScoop.com and other similar sites do very well) is consistently terrible.

Imagine, I could do this all day and be good at my job as opposed to doing this all day and being terrible at my job! :thumb:

GameOfThrows · Jan 10, 2017

Walking into the lion's den, I think some of you are a little off on expectations for this season's team. For starters, the BIG is really a grind this season. If a team gets to 10-8 in conference they will have earned those 10 wins. Minnesota, Northwestern, and Nebraska are good teams. Iowa and Penn St. are capable and Rutgers has a PG that will get them some wins as well. And those are the "lower half" programs.

If the Illini go 10-8 in the conference they will make the Dance, and all of this speculation will be moot.

I think that this team will improve as the season progresses. Tate and Thorne are playing themselves out of the rotation which will help this team improve on offense. TJL will be playing more minutes the rest of the way which will help the team on offense once he gets comfortable. Kipper is playing himself into more minutes which will help the team defense.

AJ must be doing something right in practice b/c he was the immediate sub for Malcolm when Malcolm got into early foul trouble in Bloomington. AJ needs to relax and "be where his feet are". If he can do that he'll be a nice asset moving forward. DJW is a nice piece off the bench as well. Same with Finke.

JCL looks to be rounding into proper shape. Both his defense and shot have improved recently. While Tracy has struggled mightily in both BIG road games, let's remember he hasn't played a meaningful road game in two seasons. Let's hope he adjusts. Malcolm has really started driving to the rack which is a nice addition to his arsenal and will only help the team moving forward.

I know the WVU and Maryland games were pathetic and unacceptable, but outside of those two games, the team has played pretty well, and if TJL and Kipper play more than Tate and Thorne for the rest of the season, then we'll go dancing.

Obelix · Jan 10, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
First of all that's only in the case of Groce getting a pretextual, Cubit-esque extension that clearly exists only to entrap Tilmon and Frazier.

Still the two are not identical. But there is a common thread of just throwing an entire season away in an attempt to out-think the coaching carousel process.

In a way it would be worse, because while the situation was 100% of the administration's own making, it was undeniably true that in December 2015, we were in a worse position to attract a coach than we could have expected to be in December 2016. The burden far outweighed the benefit, but there was a benefit.

The Tilmon poaching benefit, on the other hand, is a total illusion.

The whole notion that IF Groce survives, it means UI wants trap Tilmon and other recruits is hogwash. It is actually mostly brought forward from people who want to argue against it.

IF Groce survives, it would mean that Groce has decided to keep Groce (at least for one more year - nobody will know what decision Whitman will make in the future).

Some posters try to make it sound that IF Groce squeezes into the tournament and survives, it would mean long-term stability, guaranteed contract with high buyouts, recruiting stability and security, etc. whereas IF he squeezes out of the tournament and survives, it would mean an attempt to trap 2017 recruits. Both theories are hogwash.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Jan 10, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
First of all that's only in the case of Groce getting a pretextual, Cubit-esque extension that clearly exists only to entrap Tilmon and Frazier.

:tape:

Joel Goodson · Jan 10, 2017

GameOfThrows said:
Walking into the lion's den, I think some of you are a little off on expectations for this season's team. For starters, the BIG is really a grind this season. If a team gets to 10-8 in conference they will have earned those 10 wins. Minnesota, Northwestern, and Nebraska are good teams. Iowa and Penn St. are capable and Rutgers has a PG that will get them some wins as well. And those are the "lower half" programs.

If the Illini go 10-8 in the conference they will make the Dance, and all of this speculation will be moot.

I think that this team will improve as the season progresses. Tate and Thorne are playing themselves out of the rotation which will help this team improve on offense. TJL will be playing more minutes the rest of the way which will help the team on offense once he gets comfortable. Kipper is playing himself into more minutes which will help the team defense.

AJ must be doing something right in practice b/c he was the immediate sub for Malcolm when Malcolm got into early foul trouble in Bloomington. AJ needs to relax and "be where his feet are". If he can do that he'll be a nice asset moving forward. DJW is a nice piece off the bench as well. Same with Finke.

JCL looks to be rounding into proper shape. Both his defense and shot have improved recently. While Tracy has struggled mightily in both BIG road games, let's remember he hasn't played a meaningful road game in two seasons. Let's hope he adjusts. Malcolm has really started driving to the rack which is a nice addition to his arsenal and will only help the team moving forward.

I know the WVU and Maryland games were pathetic and unacceptable, but outside of those two games, the team has played pretty well, and if TJL and Kipper play more than Tate and Thorne for the rest of the season, then we'll go dancing.

Next 2 games are crucial. Win both and your scenario may just play out. Drop one and most likely it's taps.

ChazzReinhold · Jan 10, 2017

Obelix said:
IF Groce survives, it would mean that Groce has decided to keep Groce (at least for one more year - nobody will know what decision Whitman will make in the future).

Wow, Groce isn't even sure he would retain himself.

LincolnIlliniFan · Jan 10, 2017

GameOfThrows said:
Walking into the lion's den, I think some of you are a little off on expectations for this season's team. For starters, the BIG is really a grind this season. If a team gets to 10-8 in conference they will have earned those 10 wins. Minnesota, Northwestern, and Nebraska are good teams. Iowa and Penn St. are capable and Rutgers has a PG that will get them some wins as well. And those are the "lower half" programs.

If the Illini go 10-8 in the conference they will make the Dance, and all of this speculation will be moot.

I think that this team will improve as the season progresses. Tate and Thorne are playing themselves out of the rotation which will help this team improve on offense. TJL will be playing more minutes the rest of the way which will help the team on offense once he gets comfortable. Kipper is playing himself into more minutes which will help the team defense.

AJ must be doing something right in practice b/c he was the immediate sub for Malcolm when Malcolm got into early foul trouble in Bloomington. AJ needs to relax and "be where his feet are". If he can do that he'll be a nice asset moving forward. DJW is a nice piece off the bench as well. Same with Finke.

JCL looks to be rounding into proper shape. Both his defense and shot have improved recently. While Tracy has struggled mightily in both BIG road games, let's remember he hasn't played a meaningful road game in two seasons. Let's hope he adjusts. Malcolm has really started driving to the rack which is a nice addition to his arsenal and will only help the team moving forward.

I know the WVU and Maryland games were pathetic and unacceptable, but outside of those two games, the team has played pretty well, and if TJL and Kipper play more than Tate and Thorne for the rest of the season, then we'll go dancing.

And the first half of the Indiana game wasn't? The fact of the matter is, Groce can not coach. He can recruit, great! But nothing he has done on the court with our offense screams any bit of an x's and o's guy. I get the B1G is a grind this year, maybe more so than most other years but there is no excuse for your team to show up and get ran out of the gym in the first 4 minutes. Can't happen!

I have been a Groce supporter longer than most here but after the past few blow outs, I have personally had enough. I trust that JW has already been working on a replacement. One that not only can keep our recruiting up as well as put a team on the floor that will compete night in and night out. My vote is CM and if not him, Archie Miller. I also feel you need to at least put feelers out for Fred Hoiberg. I know its a long shot but so was Lovie.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 10, 2017

GameOfThrows said:
I think that this team will improve as the season progresses.

Totally felt this way after the non-conference season and I still believe this is possible, but at this point my attitude is:

deadpool81 · Jan 10, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
Honest question: is there a buck to be made in thinking-man's coaching carousel blogging? Because you're right, what's out there from an analysis perspective (as opposed to a reporting perspective - which FootballScoop.com and other similar sites do very well) is consistently terrible.

Imagine, I could do this all day and be good at my job as opposed to doing this all day and being terrible at my job! :thumb:

yes. but not overnight. probably a very expensive hobby before you see real money, (if ever). which is probably one reason the writing quality is so terrible.

that being said, i would definitely read a well-written blog like that. hell, i'd probably read a somewhat poorly written one as well.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 10, 2017

Obelix said:
Some posters try to make it sound that IF Groce squeezes into the tournament and survives, it would mean long-term stability, guaranteed contract with high buyouts, recruiting stability and security, etc. whereas IF he squeezes out of the tournament and survives, it would mean an attempt to trap 2017 recruits. Both theories are hogwash.

It's not the result of the season, it's the terms of the contract.

If we lose the rest of our games and Groce signs a Kirk Ferentz deal, stability we shall have. Stability with an empty SFC, but stability nonetheless.

The underlying reality here is that if this team is bad, there is absolutely no reasonable basis to conclude next year's team won't be bad, if not worse. Teams that lose five big-minutes seniors including their one talismanic star don't improve the next year under the same coach. That's just not a reasonable expectation.

At the end of this season, we must decide if Groce is the right coach for 2018-19. That's the question. Failure to give a conclusive answer to that question invites peril and ruin.

mattcoldagelli · Jan 10, 2017

deadpool81 said:
yes. but not overnight. probably a very expensive hobby before you see real money, (if ever). which is probably one reason the writing quality is so terrible.

that being said, i would definitely read a well-written blog like that. hell, i'd probably read a somewhat poorly written one as well.

Somebody give me what Frank the Tank is for conference expansion, but for Hot Seat Coaches and their potential replacements.

S&C, I trust you are that somebody. Looking forward to it.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 10, 2017

deadpool81 said:
hell, i'd probably read a somewhat poorly written one as well.

I accept all major credit cards

Obelix · Jan 10, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
It's not the result of the season, it's the terms of the contract.

If we lose the rest of our games and Groce signs a Kirk Ferentz deal, stability we shall have. Stability with an empty SFC, but stability nonetheless.

The underlying reality here is that if this team is bad, there is absolutely no reasonable basis to conclude next year's team won't be bad, if not worse. Teams that lose five big-minutes seniors including their one talismanic star don't improve the next year under the same coach. That's just not a reasonable expectation.

At the end of this season, we must decide if Groce is the right coach for 2018-19. That's the question. Failure to give a conclusive answer to that question invites peril and ruin.

Groce is no position to negotiate great terms in his contract regardless. The notion that Groce squeezing into the tournament would mean long-term stability, guaranteed contract with high buyouts, recruiting stability and security, etc. is again hogwash.

Illinimobile · Jan 10, 2017

I came across this article

Not sure if it was posted previously.

Buck Turgidson · Jan 10, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
Somebody give me what Frank the Tank is for conference expansion, but for Hot Seat Coaches and their potential replacements.

S&C, I trust you are that somebody. Looking forward to it.

Frank the Tank is exactly who I thought of...

Joel Goodson · Jan 10, 2017

Obelix said:
Groce is no position to negotiate great terms in his contract regardless. The notion that Groce squeezing into the tournament would mean long-term stability, guaranteed contract with high buyouts, recruiting stability and security, etc. is again hogwash.

+infinity

All that means is he (probably) survives and gets a nominal extension (e.g., 2 years, no raise). In that event, he's still on shaky ground.

Obelix · Jan 10, 2017

Joel Goodson said:
+infinity

All that means is he (probably) survives and gets a nominal extension (e.g., 2 years, no raise). In that event, he's still on shaky ground.

Correct, and I thought Guenther continually giving Weber extensions with hefty raises and guarantees, including golden parachutes in case he got fired, was a bigger mistake than not firing him earlier. A mistake we continued to pay dearly for years after his dismissal.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 10, 2017

Obelix said:
Groce is no position to negotiate great terms in his contract regardless.

You're not negotiating against John Groce, you're negotiating against Shannon Ryan and Ayo Dosunmu and Jeremiah Tilmon's mom and Joe Sixpack Fan. John Groce doesn't have other options than Illinois basketball. Everyone else does.

The notion that Groce squeezing into the tournament would mean long-term stability, guaranteed contract with high buyouts, recruiting stability and security, etc. is again hogwash.

Would you not describe Kirk Ferentz' situation at Iowa as stable? Obviously he's higher-performing than Groce, but he's an extremely divisive figure in their fanbase.

2017 Coaching Carousel

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