Illwinsagain
- Cary, IL
I agree.
2017 Coaching Carousel
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I agree.
Obviously, but if we just said "Whitman can or can not fire him, it is up to him" and left it at that, which is entirely accurate, this thread would be 1 post and done, and what's the fun in that :thumb:
I just find it incredibly hard to point to anything Groce has done well other than being a really nice dude in his time here. He's likeable, but he's not an elite recruiter, his program management is subpar, talent evals/recruiting strategy has a lot of
s, player development could be better, no identity, etc. That's really what bothers me, because when i think about what a future with Groce would look like, I still don't know what that really means other than likely subpar hoops for any of a variety of reasons.
I thought Illinois would make the tournament easily. Then they released the Big Ten schedule and I had visions of an 0-7 start. I will settle for making the tournament by any means necessary.
OrangeAndBlues
- Indianapolis
Obviously, but if we just said "Whitman can or can not fire him, it is up to him" and left it at that, which is entirely accurate, this thread would be 1 post and done, and what's the fun in that :thumb:
I just find it incredibly hard to point to anything Groce has done well other than being a really nice dude in his time here. He's likeable, but he's not an elite recruiter, his program management is subpar, talent evals/recruiting strategy has a lot of
That's really what bothers me, because when i think about what a future with Groce would look like, I still don't know what that really means other than likely subpar hoops for any of a variety of reasons.
Cosign. You wrapped my thoughts up all together nicely.
Illwinsagain
- Cary, IL
If he makes the tourney, and comes back, I hope that this a case of a young coach figuring it out. Also, it appears that heearned from previous recruiting mistakes.
89illinigrad
- Chicago
I think that is what the optimists are thinking, that and he may finally be getting the talent he needs to succeed.
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Sure, but people confuse speculation on what will happen, with conviction that their own beliefs is what will happen.
Well, yeah some folks, not all of us though. I'm just here to speculate and enjoy the alternate reality where we hire Kevin Keatts
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mhuml32
- Cincinnati, OH
+1
Arguing about talent as defined by "what we see on the court" seems like the same as performance, so I'm not really understanding the distinction. Either way, it's hard not to see Groce as primarily responsible for the state of the program.
I was on the fence about Groce coming into this season. With a fairly stable roster in place this year, especially compared to the last few years, I was hoping for a 6 or 7 seed in the NCAAT or better. I think it is time for a change but not because we aren't looking at a 6 seed but for a few other reasons. I am sick of seeing us out-coached badly against the top coaches in conference. I am disappointed that it took so long to shake up the roster and substitutions. I also don't feel like we have a solid identity with effective game strategies. It's great that we were in the picture with a bunch of stud recruits but at the same time we missed out on some really solid guys that were kind of overlooked by Groce and company.
I hope we can get a new coach who has a good system that can be established, has a good feel for substituting and giving young guys appropriate playing time, and can successfully recruit for the style and philosophy in place.
I like Groce but I think no matter how we do from here on out this season should not impact the necessary coaching change IMO.
FYI- I'm not Aaron Jordan's Dad.
I hope we can get a new coach who has a good system that can be established, has a good feel for substituting and giving young guys appropriate playing time, and can successfully recruit for the style and philosophy in place.
I like Groce but I think no matter how we do from here on out this season should not impact the necessary coaching change IMO.
FYI- I'm not Aaron Jordan's Dad.
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Sure... stop playing coy with us :hand:
Obelix makes some valid points. I agree with him that a majority of the problem has been a talent issue. We have some decent players, but they are not close to elite Big talent. I believe that some of these players have the skill sets that might be restrained based on the type of player that surrounds them. For instance, if you put Black on a Wisconsin team, I believe his value goes up because he would not be counted on to provide points. At U of I, we need him to play his game (rebound, scrap, enforce) , but we also need points out of him. I feel we have a lot of players that are better than the whole. It is kind of a reverse synergy.
LOL. I hope Aaron's Dad comes back to the board after the season. I'm curious about how he's feeling these days.
Another example is JCL. Really good shooter, great form. But much of his lofty ranking out of HS was false expectations that he had (or could easily develop) PG skills. Actually, a few of the major ranking services had him listed as PG. Truth is that JCL, as good of a shooter as he is, he does not have that skillset. Independent of coaching.
JCL could still add tremendous value, however, if you could surround him with a true PG who could penetrate and kick, freeing the perimeter. We have started to see that with TJL, it could be enhanced further with Frazier. Same with Abrams, part of his resurgence is the fact that he can be the off guard without the pressure to create at PG, a skillset that he does not possess.
The positional gaps in Groce's recruiting also affected the impact of players at other positions.
frozenrope9190
- Aurora, IL
I know this is woulda/coulda/shoulda, but I keep thinking back to QS's snub at the signing period in 2014, which just sucked for Groce. I think that set off so many things in motion, both poor decision making and bad luck, and I still think we haven't recovered. Maybe TJL's emergence is our team finally recovering, I don't know.
If/when he's let go, that will be the dagger I look to. For an up an coming coach that Groce was at the time, this was just a killer.
I understand this thinking and obviously QS would've helped a lot, but that happened at early signing day, and Groce had no backup plans and didn't secure any PG in that class as a result. I don't think QS not coming was the biggest issue in that series of events, it was that there was no contingency plan.
It is certainly worth mentioning that when all was said and done, QS was committed from Sept 12 to Nov 15th of that cycle, so it's not all on Groce. But we went 3 full cycles without a freshman PG. QS hurt, but Groce made quite a few decisions that greatly exaggerated the impact of that loss.
Additionally, QS's desire to go to UL was always known, so it was a real head scratcher to see him put all of his eggs in that basket in the first place.
frozenrope9190
- Aurora, IL
I understand that, and it's probably something I have to learn as I continue to follow recruiting. I just thought that getting a verbal meant they didn't have to continue to recruit the kid as hard as if he didn't verbal, and it also meant not recruiting other kids at the same position as hard as not having the position tied to someone else. I hate the whole verbal process, btw.
What I think has been a major problem for Groce in the recruiting and talent area has been the wasted scholarships over the last five years. He lost 2 on Abrahms injuries, 1 on Starks' failure to get a waiver, 1.5 on Cosby (give him credit for 0.5 years of play), 2 on Darius Paul, and its looking like 2 on Thorne due to injury. He burned another scholarship on Rice which was certainly worth it, and lost another on Black last year and one to redshirt Finke. With all the unproductive scholarships in the last five years, we might have well as been on NCAA probation. These were the consequences of Groce's decisions so it is fair to put it on him, but it also isn't all his "fault." If Groce is retained, I would hope and expect he does better in this area.
Yep, great point.
I Bomb
Stylin' and Profilin'
Hadn't put that together, good point. thanks.
Wasn't following at the time but thought Shaka Smart was the 1st choice when we hired Groce. Not impressed with his results either despite good recruiting.
There is a learning curve and it seems many think a new coach comes to P5 with the curve over. Not sufficiently knowledgable to make judgement on JG but very fearful of just starting over with a new name. If he wins out and makes the tournament I like the odds of keeping him rather than a chance of another new man going thru the learning curve and living with 4 more yrs of being on the bottom of the BIG. A good leader evaluates the weakness and fills the gap. Firing and rehiring isn't the only answer.
There is a learning curve and it seems many think a new coach comes to P5 with the curve over. Not sufficiently knowledgable to make judgement on JG but very fearful of just starting over with a new name. If he wins out and makes the tournament I like the odds of keeping him rather than a chance of another new man going thru the learning curve and living with 4 more yrs of being on the bottom of the BIG. A good leader evaluates the weakness and fills the gap. Firing and rehiring isn't the only answer.
It's a good point, but we also have to consider that coming in, every coach would have to replace his senior class (2009 recruiting class for Groce). But Groce also had to replace the 2010 class (gone before he got there), the 2012 class (empty Weber class), and half of his 2011 class that had players who did not belong in the B1G (Ibby, Shaw, Langford). That is 3.5 classes from the get go, so he had to take some chances on transfers, it was not totally by design.
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