2017 Coaching Carousel

Rafale said:

That is an excellent answer. Dollars will cure a lot of whatever perceived problems there might be, in part by letting a perspective coach know that the University is serious and willing to invest in the success of the program. Low balling the solution would have the opposite effect for all the obvious reasons and prolong the misery. I live in Cincinnati and we have two excellent coaches who might be lured (Chris Mack at Xavier and Mick Cronin at UC). Not sure but believe both make less than Groce (A.K.A. Jim Croce) and could outcoach him any day of the week. Suspect there are more out there than have been discussed in these posts. Let's get the job done right this time. I'm sick of being embarrassed about my school's basketball team's record. I'm a Buckeye football fan but will always support Illinois basketball. Recently, that is becoming VERY hard to do.

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Agree both coaches are a far cry better than Groce...Cronin has arguably his best Cincy team and loves it there....don't think he goes anywhere, and Mack is at dream job I believe? Don't see it either...would rather have Mack between the two though...

PlayAZ said:

Agree both coaches are a far cry better than Groce...Cronin has arguably his best Cincy team and loves it there....don't think he goes anywhere, and Mack is at dream job I believe? Don't see it either...would rather have Mack between the two though...

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I don't know that Cronin is going anywhere either but he must not love it there so much that he wasn't at least arguably ready to bolt for UNLV last year.

Both I suspect are happy with their current situations but, money has a way of making some people even happier. Xavier has historically been a stepping stone for some pretty successful coaches (Pete Gillen, Skip Prosser, Thad Mottta, Sean Miller). I suspect Chris Mack would leave if the offer was right.


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Swamp Donkey said:

Here is a question for those in the "fire Groce at all costs" crowd. Let's say JW has contacted Colangelo and got his input. After researching the field of candidates he puts together a top 5 list. He starts to put out feelers and he is dismayed that none of his top 5 are interested in the job. He investigates why and is told that there is a perception that the job is toxic for one reason or another. Do we continue down the list and form another list of 5 or is it better for JW to work on whatever the issue may be that is keeping coaches from taking the job? Is it better to take a "B" list coach that we will be stuck with for 3-5 years or is it better to wait until we can attract our "A" list candidates? Remember we have been rebuffed before and there is a rumor out there that some coaches feel something is wrong with our job. I realize that many in our fan base will refuse to believe that something is wrong with the position but many of us our living in the glory years of the program. Serious question....what is best?

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Isn't this "rumor" that something is wrong with the U of I head coaching job nothing more than unsubstantiated, thought-up message board, hypothetical hogwash???

Interesting to see the arguments here. Seems to me the most relevant points are:

1. Groce has had plenty of time to show what he's capable of
2. Yes, but [various reasons why it won't happen again]
3. Are you kidding? We can't go much lower than bottom third of BIG and missing the dance
4. Fear, especially risk of finding "the one"
5. Attendance dropping, and therefore lots of revenue
6. But recruiting
7. More denial
8. Finally, acceptance, and we live better lives

We're moving on guys.

coryfor3 said:

I don't know that Cronin is going anywhere either but he must not love it there so much that he wasn't at least arguably ready to bolt for UNLV last year.

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I agree he was going...there were some internal rumblings at Cincy iirc, and that obviously must have worked out....plus maybe he realizes grass wasn't greener there....

mattcoldagelli said:

You spelled "I've given up and accepted mediocrity" wrong.

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I was thinking about this...and I think I'm actually ok with mediocrity in my favorite basketball team.

DISCLAIMER: Before anyone tries to share a life lesson with me about how high expectations are important in life, let me make it perfectly clear that I am just talking about basketball here. Illinois basketball is, for me, a passive hobby. I enjoy watching the games when I can, I enjoy the banter and 'news' on this site, but it's not super important to me.

Back to my point. The reason I like Illinois basketball is because I get attached to the players and coaches. Sure, I went to Illinois, but I'm not particularly attached to the school. If I took a hiatus from following Illinois basketball for 5 years and tried to come back and be a fan again, I don't think I'd be that into it. The reason I watch is because I root for the people on the floor and bench.

So I still kind of want Groce to stay, just because I like him and any new coach is, at this point, a stranger who I don't care about. When I look at his record at Illinois, it's pretty dismal. But I see legitimate reasons for the bad seasons, and I see corrections (finally recruiting the PG position well, getting an elite big man). Expecting improvement next year isn't "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" because next year there is a new roster and I believe that players are fundamentally the most important factor in a team's success (coaching is important, sure, but not nearly as important as talent*).

So...yeah, I accept mediocrity, and hope for growth/improvement. I just don't care enough--and never have--to "demand" excellence.

* I recognize that you can have GREAT talent and TERRIBLE coaching and suck, i.e. Lorenzo Romar. But I don't think you can have much success with GREAT coaching and sub-average talent.

americanoutlaw11 said:

Isn't this "rumor" that something is wrong with the U of I head coaching job nothing more than unsubstantiated, thought-up message board, hypothetical hogwash???

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Perhaps this is in reference to the University administration being in disarray around the time of the Groce hire.

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:

"toxic" is some serious b.s.

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There are lots of people afraid of change.

The last coaching search did not go well, but we are in much better shape this time.

1. Facilities have been substantially improved.
2. Non-toxic AD.
3. Better roster (don't have to replace 2.5 classes) and good recruits lined up.
4. Stable administration.

The right hire will keep the class in tact and add to it.

Things will get better.

aluma said:

I just want to watch good basketball. We have seen glimpses of it, but I genuinely don't know what to expect game to game from Groce's teams the last 5 years. One night we will play great and hang with the big boys, the next night we lose to Penn St. in devastating fashion. The thing that frustrates me the most is our offense, I can't handle anymore seasons of dribbling for 25 seconds, then with time running down having our players take their man one on one for a fade away jump shot. My biggest concern is how many jump shots we take. We rarely get dunks, layups, or drives to the basket that lead to free throws. When we aren't shooting well we will lose 99% of the time because our teams have no way to get easy baskets. Mid range shots are especially poor options to rely on and we seem to rely on them more than almost any other team in the Big Ten. For all the statistics that Groce claims to look at, he must've missed the statistics that show midrange shots and last second one on one fade away jump shots don't equate to good, consistent offense.

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Brandon Paul and Ray Rice got them. I think that's a personnel thing. We don't have leapers right now.

This is part of the reason I want Mark Smith so bad.

What made Thomas 'toxic'? I understand the Beckman and Groce hires weren't the greatest, but what makes people think coaches don't want to work under him? I honestly don't know the specifics.

As schools start seeing increased revenue from media (hard to say how long until the cable bubble burst impact live sports content) I think it becomes easier for schools to offer more money to lure coaches. MO hit payday with the SEC. Curious if they offer someone 3+ million per year to lure a good coach. Same with LSU, Georgia, etc. If our revenue goes up to 40+ million per year, frankly because of our leeching off the Ohio State's and Michigan's, I think we need to take advantage of the income and invest it coaching. Lovie was a great hire, showed we are willing to spend. I hope we do the same with bball. Getting Illini into the tournament will not get easier, the fact Groce could not do it this year, has made me lose what confidence/support I had for him. Time to move on, strike before others strike and lock down someone.

I think Groce will be here next year for the following reasons:

1. His strong bond with JW.
2. Some high $$$ boosters are fine with his return.
3. His tone and demeanor has changed in the last 3-4 post game interviews. Seems like
he knows he will be back.

For me, whether JG is replaced or retained I trust and accept JW decision 100%. And I will be rooting for our student athletes no matter who is holding the clipboard.

zpfled said:

Brandon Paul and Ray Rice got them. I think that's a personnel thing. We don't have leapers right now.

This is part of the reason I want Mark Smith so bad.

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This is probably the slowest and unathletic team I've ever seen at Illinois.

aluma said:

I just want to watch good basketball. We have seen glimpses of it, but I genuinely don't know what to expect game to game from Groce's teams the last 5 years. One night we will play great and hang with the big boys, the next night we lose to Penn St. in devastating fashion. The thing that frustrates me the most is our offense, I can't handle anymore seasons of dribbling for 25 seconds, then with time running down having our players take their man one on one for a fade away jump shot. My biggest concern is how many jump shots we take. We rarely get dunks, layups, or drives to the basket that lead to free throws. When we aren't shooting well we will lose 99% of the time because our teams have no way to get easy baskets. Mid range shots are especially poor options to rely on and we seem to rely on them more than almost any other team in the Big Ten. For all the statistics that Groce claims to look at, he must've missed the statistics that show midrange shots and last second one on one fade away jump shots don't equate to good, consistent offense.

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Groce's teams seldomly play as a cohesive, well oiled machine. There always appears to be a great deal of disorganization and uncertainty on offense. Malcome Hill knows what he's doing when he has the ball. When he doesn't, it seems like anything can happen (ref IMPE pickup games). I contrast this with watching Duke, Arizona, or Kansas and the comparison is startling. I cannot blame the players. This is coaching. John Calipari is somehow able to create the semblance of a well oiled machine every year with mostly freshmen (although sometimes this takes about half a season to get the kinks worked out). Groce usually appears as if he's ready to have a coronary on the sidelines. Sometimes this is warranted of course, especially when losing to Winthrop. The point is, his teams seem to lack conviction or confidence which at that level starts wth the head coach. It's like any other leadership position. Confident behavior usually installs confidence in those you lead. Results usually follow assuming the basic knowledge is there.


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zpfled said:

Back to my point. The reason I like Illinois basketball is because I get attached to the players and coaches. Sure, I went to Illinois, but I'm not particularly attached to the school. If I took a hiatus from following Illinois basketball for 5 years and tried to come back and be a fan again, I don't think I'd be that into it. The reason I watch is because I root for the people on the floor and bench.

So I still kind of want Groce to stay, just because I like him and any new coach is, at this point, a stranger who I don't care about. When I look at his record at Illinois, it's pretty dismal. But I see legitimate reasons for the bad seasons, and I see corrections (finally recruiting the PG position well, getting an elite big man). Expecting improvement next year isn't "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" because next year there is a new roster and I believe that players are fundamentally the most important factor in a team's success (coaching is important, sure, but not nearly as important as talent*).

So...yeah, I accept mediocrity, and hope for growth/improvement. I just don't care enough--and never have--to "demand" excellence.

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I'm with you 100% on this. It's kinda family thing with this team.

RichardH said:

What I don't understand is people are scared of changing from rock bottom? Honestly how much worse can it get for Illinois at this point? Groce is the worst coach we have in 30 years and people are scared to look for a replacement!?!?

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That is a good rebuttal for anyone afraid of change. Can a change make things worse? In this case, pretty unlikely.

As a further set of thoughts, JG played college basketball for 4 years in the early 90's. He has been an assistant at various programs and for various head coaches for an additional dozen years. After that, he has been a head coach for nearly 10 years. That is 25 years of full-time commitment to college basketball. Over half of his life. Why would year 26 be "the year"?

I'm sorry, he is a wonderful guy, but he is not a wonderful coach.
Please, JW, hit the reset button.

Preview
hardly ever post. But, I look at this in a bigger picture. In the 5 years Groce has been here I admit that this program is not where it was in the past. So when Groce first came in he took Richardson, Paul, etc... to the Dance! Everyone was just estatic that we got the right coach, Hooray! Then as most know we went down on our level of point guards or simply could not recruit one. And that was the next compliant from every fan for the next 2 years "was we need a point guard" or "he missed again", heck got snubbed on Signing Day. Again Groce learned from his mistakes and figured out how to balance a "A-list" recruit and a "B-list" recruit where we get at least one. Well guess what, yes it took longer than most would of liked, but we got one. As far as last year I am sorry we cannot count that against any coach Not even Tom Izzo could of got that tournament to the Dance. But Groce played who he had and made what improvements he could make for the following year. Example, Maverick Morgan which kinda reminds me of Jack Ingram of the 05 team his senior year. He went from a Body that subbed in for Powell and Augustine but was not really looked at as a threat until about half way through his senior season. then all of a sudden he was a different player and teams had to pay attention to him. Sorry, Now back to the current year and our guards. Yes we finally had our true Point Guard but even then he did not start right away and people were upset. But when he did take over this team you all have seen the changes and the direction this team is heading. And guess what next year we have more True Point Guards (Mr. Frazier, Mr. Williams, possibly Mr. Smith) coming, and one is averaging 27 pts in the largest class in Florida. Oh and between them and Tejon they can drive past defenders, and pass cause they have better court vision than anyone on this current team, oh I forgot defend. So instead of us being beat by Maryland, Indiana, etc... by 20 to 30 pts earlier this year cause they just drove past us like we were scarecrows in a field we will be doing that to them. Which will make it alot harder for teams to guard us and open several opportunities for shooters or Bigs to score easy baskets which we have seen more of lately. But I will give some people Partial credit cause I do believe there needs to be a coaching change. So this is where Mr. Whitman comes in and lets John know I have confidence in ya but there has to be a change if you would like to stay at the Assistant level and like most think Mr. Ford can Go bye bye. In my eyes he has done nothing toward the improvement of this team in recruiting or coaching. Bring in a Mr. Powell or Deon Thomas, etc... to help our Bigs and recruit them also. Sorry but if Mr. Ford walked into my house and told me he was going to coach my son and look at his resume I would laugh. So before I get to deep that is my big picture! So I guess we will see in short time.

Tron2010 said:

I think Groce will be here next year for the following reasons:

1. His strong bond with JW.
2. Some high $$$ boosters are fine with his return.
3. His tone and demeanor has changed in the last 3-4 post game interviews. Seems like
he knows he will be back.

For me, whether JG is replaced or retained I trust and accept JW decision 100%. And I will be rooting for our student athletes no matter who is holding the clipboard.

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Attendance slipped this year which is the ultimate fan vote. According to a recent article by the herald review, it seems that Groce and Whitman are alluding to the opposite, if you haven't read it. Whitman is declining interviews until after the season and Groce was asked where he seems himself next year he responded he is focused on Michigan. I believe he's said in other interviews he doesn't know where he will be in a few years.

aluma said:

I do think if we add Frazier, Smith, and Williams to the mix, we will likely be getting more of those types of shots. But the problem of not having leapers rests solely on the shoulders of none other than Groce. He knows what type of offense he wants and for the most part we haven't had the type of players.

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True, for sure.

But the future looks good with next year's class. Tilmon, Williams, Frazier...all good athletes. Smith would fit into that category.

EDIT: This is regardless of who the coach is, of course.

Unless I missed it, this Tribune article hasn't been posted ITT yet: Groce 'going one day at a time' heading into Big Ten tourney

Tupper at the Pantagraph has his own similar take here: Illinois basketball coach John Groce declines to speculate about job security

FeelYourPaign said:

That is a good rebuttal for anyone afraid of change. Can a change make things worse? In this case, pretty unlikely.

As a further set of thoughts, JG played college basketball for 4 years in the early 90's. He has been an assistant at various programs and for various head coaches for an additional dozen years. After that, he has been a head coach for nearly 10 years. That is 25 years of full-time commitment to college basketball. Over half of his life. Why would year 26 be "the year"?

I'm sorry, he is a wonderful guy, but he is not a wonderful coach.
Please, JW, hit the reset button.

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I too cannot relate to those that are afraid of change. But keep in mind that this is a typical human response to every situation. Most people live within 20 miles of their parents. People stay in dead-end jobs rather than taking a chance. Humans are by nature happy to continue on with the status quo.

Now, the most logical argument I have heard for keeping Groce is from zpfled who admits that he does not care if we win. That is great for him, but I want to win. I want to see the kids on the court succeed. It is not enjoyable for me to watch Rutgers, Penn State, Withrop, Yale, North Florida, Chattanooga, Nebraska, etc. beat us. And it boils my blood when we lose to Indiana and Iowa. I wish I was more like zpfled, but my guess is that he is an outlier on this board.

Tron2010 said:

I think Groce will be here next year for the following reasons:

1. His strong bond with JW.
2. Some high $$$ boosters are fine with his return.
3. His tone and demeanor has changed in the last 3-4 post game interviews. Seems like
he knows he will be back.

For me, whether JG is replaced or retained I trust and accept JW decision 100%. And I will be rooting for our student athletes no matter who is holding the clipboard.

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1. JW is a good AD showing respect. He's not going to fire Groce midseason. He's also going to treat his employees with the respect they deserve. And it's pretty obvious that Groce is a good guy.
2. As I'm sure some are also demanding a new coach. Not to mention the obvious fan apathy sinking in when you can't fill you're newly renovated arena.
3. He's also won most of those games. Post-win interviews sound a lot better than post-loss interviews.

Good take on Gottfried and NC state job - http://deadspin.com/mark-gottfried-knew-what-he-was-signing-up-for-at-n-c-1793083243


Doesn't sound like an easy place to coach given fan and program expectations of being on par with Duke/UNC in a very tough conference.

Another sign of Whitman's competence as AD: nobody knows what he is going to do.

No leaks, no nonsense. He's just quietly doing his job.