As the coach, what would you do differently?

What we are doing obviously is not working on either end. There has been a lot of complaining, but I think it would be interesting to hear specifically what you would do as the coach. Offensively, i think I would turn them loose and let them play how they would in a pickup game. I bet there would be more movement, more screening, more instinct and honestly more fun, which would probably lead to better overall shooting. sometimes it wouldn't be pretty but neither is this.

Defensively, try to press to attempt to make them play hard from end to end. If anything it will eat up some shot clock.

We need people who can create. Tejon can create. He needs to play 30 mins. Need shooters. As poorly as finke has played defensively he needs to be in the pick and pop more often. Create more offense with sets. 1 on 1 with Malcom is not going to cut it. There offense begins outside the 3 point line so often. Attack the basket.

I agree. I would give the guys things to try to look for like the pick and pop with Finke, run JCL off a bunch of screens, set little on big screens, etc.

I would of sat Abrahms, Hill, JCL and played whoever wanted to play. Send a message because some message needs sent. I'm sure there are guys who are sitting on the bench who would play their heart out and be glad to be on the court. To many guys going through the motion. I also would tell Tejon that if you don't look for your shot as well you can have a seat also. Glad he loves to pass but he needs to start looking for a shot and fire it up.

Well for one thing. I would of tried to teach the kids one position well. Instead of multiple positions poorly. Granted I'm not a coach. So I truly wouldn't know how to do that either.

Start Te'Jon, give Malcolm less control of the ball(allow Te'Jon to create opportunities for Malcolm rather than Malcolm trying to dribble and create turnovers), and teach JCL how to penetrate inside and shoot the mid-range shot so that he isn't so 1-dimensional. We need to be keeping defenses honest and they know that as long as they double Hill and now Mav, we have no answers for them. Also, play Kipper first off the bench.

I would also create more opportunities and plays for Michael Finke. I know he doesn't play as much b/c of a lack of defense but when they have these offensive droughts, Finke is the one who who is consistently making his 3's, so why wouldn't we create more opportunities for our hottest shooter right now? It's things like this that make me wonder what Groce is thinking of. Finke is like an after-thought in this offense.

Great question.

I would do quite a few things differently. I know the pressure is on Groce, but he can't lose. I would see how unknown players would do. The first thing I would do is try and get more athletic more often. In addition, the pattern substitution is atrocious.

Offensively, we need more ball-movement. Our offense is based around post-ups from Maverick, or setting a screen for Malcolm and watching him go one-on-one. If using a screener, we need more players with a purpose. Should we screen a little lower so Maverick and/or Leron are not setting screens above the three point line when neither really slash to the basket and neither are great 3 point threats. In addition, as much as I love Tracy, either his legs or shot right now, or he is just purely slumping. However, he is stumbling all over the court for real and mistakes are happening from trying to do too much. He needs to come off the bench for 10-15 unless he gets into a groove. Same with Mike Thorne (he is too slow). Tate, obviously needs to be benched.

For our other players, it is hard for them to get into a groove, if the only players offensively are Morgan/Hill and they are not great defenders.

I would completely turn the reign over to Te'Jon. The ball moves great with him. I would start Te'Jon and have Hill be the back-up (yes, I said it). I would also start Kipper to set a defensive tone over Black. With this line-up, I would push the ball more. I would have Hill be the mis-match by either posting him up (his strength) or be the screener when Te'Jon is handling. The defender on Te'Jon either gets placed on Hill (shorter) or gets behind Te'jon. I have Kipper slashing to the middle. I have JCL running around off of screens opposite side. In addition, you can have Morgan either getting to mid-range or post-up when needed. However, this line-up is still not great defensively and I honestly would play Morgan less. He is too big of a liability defensively.

Te'Jon
Lands
Hill
Kipper
Morgan

Then I would run a line-up of this

Hill
Jordan
DJW
Black
Finke

I would give extended minutes to Jordan and DJW to see what they have. I think if you give Jordan some minutes, you might see more confidence and see what he can do. With this group, we should be much better defensively, have a great threat in Hill offensively, have shooters in Jordan/Finke, and I feel you can press. Hill can either post-up a smaller player or pick-and-pop Finke all day long with Jordan getting picks from Black. Also, when Hill is posting-up, have Finke on same side as 3 point threat as a big guy can't stay with Finke. I would also press when Hill is out to speed up tempo and leave it in Te'Jon's hands.

These two line-ups guarantee less slow-starts. Then the second unit bring energy, athleticism, and versatility. Wings with a skilled big guy in Finke. The wings will mask some of Finke's defensive weaknesses also.

Groce has no identity is the problem. His offense is predicated on the same 2 guys setting a screen for Hill above the 3 point line or Morgan posting up and others standing still. Defensively, the starting line-up is atrocious with not one tone-setter. Kipper can be that (while still young/raw). Black is a tough guy, but makes too many questionable decisions to start with this group (with a better group, he is a great complimentary piece). Then Groce panics and just subs a player every 2 minutes and there is not continuity.

I like Groce as a person and as an assistant.

I think Tracy would play a lot less. He is a ball stopper. He does nothing quickly when he gets the ball, he just catches and holds. Just a simple action like quickly swinging the ball would at least make the defense rotate and allow the person getting the ball to attack the paint. This is how the dribble drive works. Get a simple wing entry and an action to allow the ball handler to attack the paint. Instead he catches and allows the defense to reset. His offensive game seems to lack urgency.

Unfortunately, the Illini lack the ball handling ability to get the ball into the paint without turning it over. Malcolm's game is more geared toward being a second or third option and he kills ball movement as well. His game is similar to NBA players in the early 2000's (Kobe, McGrady, Melo) and the game just isn't played that way anymore.

othawhitemeat said:

Offensively, we need more ball-movement. Our offense is based around post-ups from Maverick, or setting a screen for Malcolm and watching him go one-on-one.
For our other players, it is hard for them to get into a groove, if the only players offensively are Morgan/Hill and they are not great defenders.


Groce has no identity is the problem. His offense is predicated on the same 2 guys setting a screen for Hill above the 3 point line or Morgan posting up and others standing still.

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Sounds like we are in agreement on the offense being run like the 2000 - 2004 Lakers, which is super antiquated and awful to watch.

The team seems to lack the talent and awareness (for lack of a better term) to play any type of competent defense. The Illini's basketball IQ is really low.

ChicagoFightingIllini said:

He is a ball stopper. He does nothing quickly when he gets the ball, he just catches and holds. Just a simple action like quickly swinging the ball would at least make the defense rotate and allow the person getting the ball to attack the paint. This is how the dribble drive works. Get a simple wing entry and an action to allow the ball handler to attack the paint. Instead he catches and allows the defense to reset. His offensive game seems to lack urgency.

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I agree, and have actually made the same comment about Tracy in previous posts. Great kid, tough, but my biggest pet peeve with Tracy over the years has been that he constantly burns clock for no reason and allows the defense to reset and relax.

In quite a few games in his career, he has done the weirdest thing: Illinois behind, a few mins/secs left, Illinois rolls the ball in the backcourt to avoid starting the clock and save valuable time. Tracy picks up the ball and proceeds to walk the ball up the court. If you are just going to pick up the ball and walk, with no urgency, what is the whole purpose of rolling the ball?

Something....anything.

Actually the responses I've seen make me feel like there is more understanding of the game on this message board than on our bench.

I have no idea where this staff found the play where the point guard passes the ball to someone and then goes and stands in the corner for the remainder of the possession. That's a terrible offense, even if Tate is playing....it's even worse if a competent PG is playing.

Defensively I'd play a tempo 2-2-1 on all made baskets to kill 6-8 shot clock seconds every possession. I'd fall back primarily into man, and I think for our current personnel the pack line is the correct man defense to run. However, after we've been guarding for about 8-10 seconds, we'd switch to a zone. In late clock situations teams almost always go iso or pick and roll and a zone would help negate the effectiveness of that. If we fell back into a zone from the 2-2-1, we'd switch to man late in the clock. Everyone goes to a pick and roll and we would work extensively on ball screen defense for late clock situations in practice. Basically, since we suck at defense I'd mix them up a lot.

Offensively I'd install a motion continuity to force movement from all 5 guys, making them all a threat. I would use pick and roll and iso stuff as a change up or call it if we got a favorable matchup off a switch in our continuity. I'm a huge fan of Brad Underwood's spread offense and the interchangeability of players in it. So that's the one I would install. It also has a backside pick and roll or handoff and roll in it for good measure so if you really like those actions, which I do, you could get 2-3 opportunities per possession. Zone offense would be more of a gap attack setup than a matchup setup. For example, when we see a 2-3 we usually setup in a 4 out 1 in set. Basically turns the zone into a quasi man. However, vs a 2-3 I'd start with a 3 out 2 on the baseline (not block literally as close to ob as possible) so that our players start in position to attack gaps by flashes or dribble penetration immediately.

Rotation wise I'd probably only play 8.

TJL
JCL
Hill
Leron
Morgan

Best of Tracy/Tate
Best of Kipper/DJ/AJ
Best of Thorne/Finke

Tldr: kill shot clock and switch defenses more, install a motion continuity, play no more than 8.

FiveStar said:

Defensively I'd play a tempo 2-2-1 on all made baskets to kill 6-8 shot clock seconds every possession. I'd fall back primarily into man, and I think for our current personnel the pack line is the correct man defense to run. However, after we've been guarding for about 8-10 seconds, we'd switch to a zone. In late clock situations teams almost always go iso or pick and roll and a zone would help negate the effectiveness of that. If we fell back into a zone from the 2-2-1, we'd switch to man late in the clock. Everyone goes to a pick and roll and we would work extensively on ball screen defense for late clock situations in practice. Basically, since we suck at defense I'd mix them up a lot.

Offensively I'd install a motion continuity to force movement from all 5 guys, making them all a threat. I would use pick and roll and iso stuff as a change up or call it if we got a favorable matchup off a switch in our continuity. I'm a huge fan of Brad Underwood's spread offense and the interchangeability of players in it. So that's the one I would install. It also has a backside pick and roll or handoff and roll in it for good measure so if you really like those actions, which I do, you could get 2-3 opportunities per possession. Zone offense would be more of a gap attack setup than a matchup setup. For example, when we see a 2-3 we usually setup in a 4 out 1 in set. Basically turns the zone into a quasi man. However, vs a 2-3 I'd start with a 3 out 2 on the baseline (not block literally as close to ob as possible) so that our players start in position to attack gaps by flashes or dribble penetration immediately.

Rotation wise I'd probably only play 8.

TJL
JCL
Hill
Leron
Morgan

Best of Tracy/Tate
Best of Kipper/DJ/AJ
Best of Thorne/Finke

Tldr: kill shot clock and switch defenses more, install a motion continuity, play no more than 8.

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Quick, maybe this should be brought to Groce's attention? What the Bulls were doing early in the season, just constant movement and passing of the basketball; this is exactly what I envisioned based on what Groce was saying. But, it is the complete opposite. All too often, when Tracy or Tate are in the game, it is bring the ball up, pass to someone else, then go stand in the corner or in 3 pt. range, ughh, makes me sick to my stomach. That's why Te'Jon should be starting from here on out.

I would go seriously up-tempo. Everybody says this team has no identity. The one positive attribute we have is that we are relatively deep from the standpoint that it really doesn't make much difference if we play the second five or the first five. The team plays no defense, and the offense is based on trying to get an open outside shot. Groce has never before had depth at point guard and post. This year we do. If we press, it reduces the amount of time that we have to play half court defense, and if we run, it allows some high percentage transition baskets and a chance to get to the foul that you just don't get when you are gunning away from the outside. The biggest thing going up tempo does is wear down the other team. Two games in particular I think this would have really helped: I don't think the one legged 5'7" guard from Winthrop would have had gas in his tank at the end if he was facing a press all game, and a team like IU with a short rotation would be gassed at the end as well.

A good coach has to use what he has to his advantage. To me this team has few advantages, but we are not attempting to use the one that we have.

Longer term, the thing that is really an indictment of Groce is the atrocious defense. Don't see any evidence of teaching or scheming. I know defense is not sexy, but the one concept that is true in all sports is that defense wins championships. Outstanding defense keeps you in all games, and allows you to win games when your offense is not clicking. As we are, this team plays poor defense and has a decent offense only when hitting from the outside. Its not surprising that kind of team might win a few games at home with friendly rims, but will be uncompetitive on the road.

The frustrating thing is that you don't need to be Jay Bilas to figure this out.

I see a lot of good thoughts being posted on here. I doubt groce or his staff check this board but it would be nice if one of these approaches is attempted. I think completely up tempo and turning them completely loose is the way to go, and he could still employ many of the ideas listed here. The one thing that needs to happen most is get the players to have fun playing again. The frustration on the offensive end is affecting the mindset on the defensive end in my opinion. I know players aren't supposed to be that way but in reality it happens. The looks on their faces, especially Malcolm and Tracy says a lot I think. Umm it saying the coaches can't rip kids or make them accountable for mistakes or effort, but the style has to be fun, at least to some degree.

I know coaches like to have their style and they have reasons for that style. What concerns me is that Groce is a math guy and possibly is a very black and white type of personality and will try to force his style, based on stats, no matter what. It is hard to give players freedom when your job is on the line but I really think he has to.

FiveStar said:

Defensively I'd play a tempo 2-2-1 on all made baskets to kill 6-8 shot clock seconds every possession. I'd fall back primarily into man, and I think for our current personnel the pack line is the correct man defense to run. However, after we've been guarding for about 8-10 seconds, we'd switch to a zone. In late clock situations teams almost always go iso or pick and roll and a zone would help negate the effectiveness of that. If we fell back into a zone from the 2-2-1, we'd switch to man late in the clock. Everyone goes to a pick and roll and we would work extensively on ball screen defense for late clock situations in practice. Basically, since we suck at defense I'd mix them up a lot.

Offensively I'd install a motion continuity to force movement from all 5 guys, making them all a threat. I would use pick and roll and iso stuff as a change up or call it if we got a favorable matchup off a switch in our continuity. I'm a huge fan of Brad Underwood's spread offense and the interchangeability of players in it. So that's the one I would install. It also has a backside pick and roll or handoff and roll in it for good measure so if you really like those actions, which I do, you could get 2-3 opportunities per possession. Zone offense would be more of a gap attack setup than a matchup setup. For example, when we see a 2-3 we usually setup in a 4 out 1 in set. Basically turns the zone into a quasi man. However, vs a 2-3 I'd start with a 3 out 2 on the baseline (not block literally as close to ob as possible) so that our players start in position to attack gaps by flashes or dribble penetration immediately.

Rotation wise I'd probably only play 8.

TJL
JCL
Hill
Leron
Morgan

Best of Tracy/Tate
Best of Kipper/DJ/AJ
Best of Thorne/Finke

Tldr: kill shot clock and switch defenses more, install a motion continuity, play no more than 8.

Click to expand...

The first post in the thread that actually has specific X's and O's always nice to see. I disagree about packline because we don't stop dribble drive so what's the point in being conservative I'd just go pressure man with ballside denial like underwood runs. That actually would take things away from offenses and make them uncomfortable.

Sleepy Floyd said:

The first post in the thread that actually has specific X's and O's always nice to see. I disagree about packline because we don't stop dribble drive so what's the point in being conservative I'd just go pressure man with ballside denial like underwood runs. That actually would take things away from offenses and make them uncomfortable.

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I ageee that a denial defense can make a team uncomfortable in their offensive flow. It is my preferred style of man. However, my fear is that if we extend, they would just iso once they crossed half court and kill us. I'm going with the packline because my overall defensive philosophy with this group is to kill the shot clock, so if we can get a team to pass it around the outside for a bit because we're packed in, we can force them to late clock situations where many players and teams tend to struggle.

I dunno about changing the system, it's a bit too late for anything wholesale, but the thing I would really be focused on in practice is closeouts. Recognition and technique. We are inexplicably bad at that, prior Groce teams have been very good, and that's the basis of everything we want to do on defense.

I don't know how much strength and conditioning stuff goes on during the Big Ten grind, but some focus on flexibility work would also help that.

Offensively I feel like we ought to dabble with lineups where all five guys can shoot, which would probably involve Hill at the 4. Maybe Lucas/JCL/Jordan/Hill/Finke? We're not an instinctive team off the ball, but if the defense has to guard all five guys out to 3, at least then what ball movement we have will put some strain on the defense.

The ball screen offense only works with a point guard that is a threat to use the screen. I've never seen more useless screens than we've seen over the past 4 years. Teams don't have to switch the screen because our point guard rarely makes a move off the screen. Keep Lucas in the game and only set screens for JCL, Hill, and Lucas. To the point others have made, Finke should get more time on the floor because he's a threat to shoot rolling off the pick. Black and Fine setting the screen makes perfect sense for that reason. The offense needs to be adjusted when others are in the game. If I see MM or Thorne set another screen for Tate or Abrams at the top of the key I might get sick.

I would make the zone defense more compact. We give up way too many drives to the basket with very little help defense. When the zone is spread too wide, driving lanes open up. Against Indiana, I understand why you'd spread out a bit to minimize the three point threat, but against Purdue it made absolutely no sense.

My rotation would be:
Lucas
JCL
Hill
Black
Morgan

Finke
Nichols
DJW
Abrams (sparingly until his confidence returns)

Instead of subbing Tate and Abrams in, I'd rotate Hill down to the 1 or 2 and bring in Nichols or DJW at the 3. I'd also consider pressing more frequently to keep the team energized and motivated.

I would:


* Bench Tate and Tracy. Thanks guys (mean it)


* Would give the keys to the team to Mr. Lucas.


Should have been done on day 1. (When you have a PG, why work around him based on where the team's confidence is in? The team may have had "confidence" in Tat/Tracy, but neither one had the skills to be a PG - we all knew that. Not a knock on either one of them)


* Would play Kipper a LOT more.


Again, this should have been the game plan when he became eligible.






Coach.


No use having a very likeable coach, who cannot coach, but attracts players based on his personality.

If i was coach.

there is one thing I would do. I have seen enough of Malcomb Hill not taking over a game like I have heard he supposedly can do. I have just watch him dribble dribble then turn it over or pass off, therefore, he would not start for me. My main two starters would be Mav and TJ. then the end of the bench would round out my starters. I watched the Michigan game and they had more energy than any of the so called stars. basically sending a message that I don't care who you are , if you don't play hard then you don't start. My offense would be run and gun and if you don't drive the lane then you are out. if you are a ball handler and don't run the ball up you are out. I you are a big man cant keep up , you are out. I guess it would be a playground style offense. Defense, if I don't here you yelling and calling out screens and communicating with your fellow players then you are out!. Now you see why I am not a coach. well, I did coach youth league. HaHa... I guesss what I am saying is I am tired of watching this group play scared. There seams to be no fight in them! P.S. Tate would be the guy handing out water bottles cause when he is in there his guy scores and then on offense the opposing team doesn't even put a man on him. sorry for such a big post but I am fed up! I have been fan since Harv Schimt(sp) was coach. between then and now, this team has the worst on court attitude that I have ever seen. I hope they change my mind. Thanks.

One thing I think is overlooked in all scenarios is who this team practices against. If Lucas can beat Tate or Tracy in practice I don't think that says a whole lot. Point is I don't believe you can be better than average if that's what you go against everyday in practice. I think this team misses Nunn, another reliable scorer. So if I'm Groce, at this point you have to try it all. Press to shorten shot clock, work more on that 2-3 zone to help stop dribble penetration, if you're to intense dial it back and make the game fun again. These players know their coaches future lives and dies with them. That's a ton of pressure on 18 -22 year olds.

Implement an offense and teach defense to start. Hard to say after that.

Orangeandbrew said:

Implement an offense and teach defense to start. Hard to say after that.

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JW get this man signed to a long term contract NOW! Dont take NO for an answer!

I'm no coach, but one thing I notice in our defense is that on the perimeter, our players give the offensive players at least a 2-3 foot cushion when defending them as opposed to being right up in their grills. That 2-3 feet allows an offensive player to have space to put the ball on the floor, pass easily, or even shoot. More than anything, it just allows the offensive player to be a bit more comfortable. Maybe that's the design of the "pack line defense," but it's not working. The win-loss record says that.

It's often said about very good defensive teams that they "pick up halfcourt" -- meaning, when an offensive player with the ball passes halfcourt, he's being hounded right away. We don't do that. Our great defenses from 10+ years ago did, and they won more games.